Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I understood and what I say is true. Whether Russia is OK with the protocols or not will be determined by its level of determination to have a hold in the Caucasus in the form of Armenia. Is Russia ready to let go of it and let Turkey's (and its allies) influence spread through the Caucasus like it has never before? Russia decides, but I seriously doubt it.

You didnt get it. By having oil and trade routes going through Armenia Russia guerantees its control over Turckey and the entire caucuses. Russia can dictate to a wider audience this way and make a good deal of money to since it owns most of Armenias infustructure and will be heavily involved in any new developments like roads, pipelines etc..

"This is not rocket science"

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Are you for real? I have just told you as well as numerous voices in here that what Serj is doing is and will be falling apart. That's exactly why we are not for Serj and yet you are. You are so wrapped up in your words that you don't see it beyond yourself that politically we could and should have been more stern even with Russia and not stepping way down our integrity and our vital rights. But that's exactly why everything will fall apart when Vasak Serj signs those black protocols and that's exactly why I have been appaled and distressed by it. And it seems that it is also unimportant to you as well for the Genocide recognition by turkey and someday getting our renumeration in the price of our lands.

By the way where do you live Haykakan? I mean do you live in RA or in the Diaspora?

Neither you nor the entire diaspora nor Serj can stop this from happening, it is way bigger then all of that put togather and multiplied 10X. Everything has been planed by the great powers and the plan has been handed down to Armenias authorities who have the same power to deny its implimentation as you do to hold your breath for the next 100 years. I have lived in the diaspora for almost 30 years and i am very familiar with it, as a matter of fact most of my friends are dashnaks yet they never questioned my devotion to Armenia and the armenian people the things i say opens a new perspective for many of them and my goal has always been to see and tell things as they are vs some rosie scenerio i dreamed up. Everyone who knows me admires the rational approach i use in all matters and they ask my opinion on things such as this more then they ask anyone else. Genocide recognition and getting our historic Armenia back is as important for me as it is for any other person who calls himself armenian, the difference is that i try not to confuse fantasy with reality.

[Davo88]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

If you understood what i was writing you would not say this.

I understood and what I say is true. Whether Russia is OK with the protocols or not will be determined by its level of determination to have a hold in the Caucasus in the form of Armenia. Is Russia ready to let go of it and let Turkey's (and its allies) influence spread through the Caucasus like it has never before? Russia decides, but I seriously doubt it.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenian has reacted on these protocals, where I totally agree with him.

The so-called "protocols" have been discussed at length. Many approaches, be it ideological, political, ethical or spiritual, have been taken into full account. Thus far, the picture painted by many of us in the diaspora looks utterly bleak, bordering on apocalyptic. One thing, however, that I have yet to see seriously scrutinized is the crucially important factor of geopolitics, or the thing we call realpolitik. The links provided below are regarding some interesting geopolitical and economic developments occurring, somewhat under the radar, within the Caucasus. The information that I am providing you here is crucial for better understanding what is occurring in the Caucasus today. Thus, they definitely deserve a serious look. I urge you all to make some time and read them. But before that, I have a few comments to make...

Basing my opinion on what I have been observing in regional developments for the past several years, it is quite obvious that there are serious plans for the greater Caucasus region, plans in which Armenia may take center stage. The mastermind of this new agenda is Vladimir Putin's Moscow. And one of the most obvious manifestations of this agenda has been the warming of relations between Turkey and Armenia; of course under the watchful eyes of the Kremlin.

Don't believe ignorant talk concerning the rapprochement between Turkey and Armenia being a "Western" agenda. It is far from it. The West is currently powerless in the Caucasus. In a sense, the West is forced to go along with the political/economic process set in motion by Moscow. Let's remember that the warming of relations between Ankara and Yerevan was started in Moscow just before the Russian-Georgian war. This process then reached a climax when Turkey's Gul visited Armenia in the immediate aftermath of Russia's war against Georgia - a war that saw the decisive defeat of the American-European-Turkish-Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi. According to international political analysts, Georgia's defeat more-or-less eliminated Western and Turkish (and by extension, Israeli) interests from within the Caucasus region.

For those who are unfamiliar with the geopolitics of the region, a simple explanation - For the past twenty years or so the West, in-tandem with Turkey and Israel, has been attempting to wrestle the strategic region of the Caucasus away from Russian control. The bloody Islamic insurgency in Chechnya and the arming of Georgia had been a part of the greater anti-Russian agenda of the West. However, we Armenians need to be mindful of the fact that without a Russian presence in the Caucasus the entire region in question will no doubt turn into a Turkic/Islamic cesspool and a playground for various intelligence services. Needless to say, Armenia cannot live as a state in the Caucasus without an effective Russian presence there.

With the Caucasus now effectively in their hands, and at their mercy, Moscow seems to be embarked on long term plan to essentially remake the Caucasus in its image. And, for better or for worst, Moscow has decided that it will use its regional strategic partner, Armenia, as its staging-ground for deeper relations with regional nations. Simply put, Armenia, as its only ally in the region, is expected to project Russian power in the south Caucasus and Asia Minor. And due to Europe's severe dependency on Central Asian gas and oil (the distribution of which Moscow now fully controls) coupled with the economic crisis that currently engulfs them, the West is more-or-less going along with Moscow's plans. In other words, they can't stop Moscow and they need the energy and Moscow is more than happy to sell them what they want through their regional stronghold, Armenia.

Nonetheless, before we figuratively speaking hang our nation's leadership for some vague wordage used on some meaningless piece of paper, let's all realize that a tiny, impoverished nation surrounded by enemies in the Caucasus has very limited leverage on an international negotiation table. We must realize that Armenia is not, nor can it be under its current geopolitical circumstances, a truly an independent state. What we need to be grateful about, however, is the simple fact that for once in our recent history we as a nation serve the strategic interests of a regional superpower. And what we can take pride in is the simple fact that as a result of its strategic relationship with Moscow Armenia's (as well as Artsakh's) borders have never been stronger. As a matter of fact, Turkey agreeing to open borders with with Armenia while Artsakh remains under Armenian control has been a major victory for the Armenian side.

Anyway, don't worry folks, even if Armenia's leadership were all a bunch of traitors and they all wanted to sell Armenia to the Turks, Russians would not allowed it, nor would Iranians for that matter. Let's not forget what happened to Vazgen Sargsyan and Garen Demirjyan when they got too close to the West back in 1999... Therefore, don't kid yourselves folks, if the Kremlin thought that the southern Caucasus would be penetrated by Turks as a result of "open borders" with Armenia there would be no Turkish-Armenian relations to speak of today.

I personally do not believe that our leadership in Yerevan is stupid, in that they do not understand politics, nor do I believe that they are treasonous, in that they have been bought by Turks. Our leadership in Yerevan is forced to go along with the greater agenda that has been placed on the table as they try to extract some benefit from it. Let us also take into serious consideration the cold realization that Armenia is stagnating politically and economically due to its isolation and poverty. If nothing is done about this predicament, in a generation or two the landlocked and resource-less country may forever sink into a Third World oblivion. Our leadership needs to do anything and everything, within proper boundaries of course, to ensure Armenia's prosperity and longevity.

With some concerns and reservations I remain hopeful that something good will come out of the current political process. I am looking at what's occurring in Armenian-Turkish relations objectively and rationally, without the paranoia, hysteria or obsessions expressed by many in our diaspora. And for Armenia's sake, I hope you prophets of doom are wrong and I am right. In final analysis, we in the diaspora, as long as we choose to remain in the diaspora, have no right to 'demand' anything from officials in Armenia because it is the natives of Armenia that will have to live with the consequences of politics - not us. Armenia cannot be the diaspora's test tube nor can it be held hostage to its ideological whims.

I ask you again to read the information from the following sources to better understand what is happening in the Caucasus today.


Arevordi

The Caucasus: Small War, Big Damage: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/t...6.php?CID=1176

That Was No Small War in Georgia — It Was the Beginning of the End of the American Empire: http://donvandergriff.wordpress.com/...erican-empire/

Caucasus Is Real Citadel of Russian Power: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...le/383525.html

A Northern Neighbor Growls, and Azerbaijan Reassesses Its Options: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/23/wo...i.html?_r=1&em

RUSSIA: MOSCOW MULLS CONSTRUCTION OF ARMENIA-IRAN RAILWAY LINK:

http://www.eurasianet.org/department...v093009b.shtml

ARMENIA: RAILWAY PREPARES TO GO TO TURKEY: http://www.eurasianet.org/department...v092909c.shtml

Seven-thousand kilometer project is awaiting parliamentary approval: http://www.sabahenglish.com/news/8386.html

Turkish press: EU to involve Armenia in Nabucco project at Georgia’s expense: http://news.am/en/news/3805.html

Asian Bank To Fund Road Projects In Armenia, Georgia: http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1839958.html

Alexey Miller: Iran, Turkey to do gas swaps through Armenia: http://news.am/en/news/3883.html

Gasprom considers possible construction of oil refinery in Armenia: http://www.arka.am/eng/energy/2009/06/23/15426.html

Russia signs deal to build Turkey's first nuclear power plant: http://en.rian.ru/business/20090806/155747143.html

Azerbaijan: The Stark New Energy Landscape: http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/en/co...rgy-landscape/

YEVSEYEV: TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TOWARDS RUSSIAN INTERESTS:

http://www.historyoftruth.com/news/y...ests-3978.html

Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Is Possible – and Necessary: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=10083

Turkey in tight spot between Russia and NATO: http://www.reuters.com/article/reute...BrandChannel=0

Turkey Plays to Russia in Caucasus: http://www.kommersant.com/p1022936/r...rkey_Caucasus/

Shifting Geopolitics- The Rise of Russia and Turkey: http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9509.html

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Its funny that you call me naive when everything i say is coming true and everything you have supported is falling apart. Nobody gives a crap about our rights unless they serve their interests. Luckily Armenia being there serves the interest of atleast Russia but getting our lands back and genocide recognition by turckey is unimportant for the rest or the world today.

Are you for real? I have just told you as well as numerous voices in here that what Serj is doing is and will be falling apart. That's exactly why we are not for Serj and yet you are. You are so wrapped up in your words that you don't see it beyond yourself that politically we could and should have been more stern even with Russia and not stepping way down our integrity and our vital rights. But that's exactly why everything will fall apart when Vasak Serj signs those black protocols and that's exactly why I have been appaled and distressed by it. And it seems that it is also unimportant to you as well for the Genocide recognition by turkey and someday getting our renumeration in the price of our lands.

By the way where do you live Haykakan? I mean do you live in RA or in the Diaspora?

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Dear Gegev, don't pay mind to Haykakan, he is the one who has been the voice of naivete from the start of the degrading black issue of the protocols. Whatever the gain for Armenia, minimal or not it was certainly NEVER the price to sell out the Genocide recognition and our rights to our Western Armenian lands for renumeration by letting go into oblivion our very important cause. It wasn't right to let the perpetrators the murderors of a nation by turkey to be the winner of our lands after stealing all our lands since the Genocide. Vasak Serj Sargsyan will go into history as another demeaning personae who betrayed his country and possibly Artsakh in the future.

Its funny that you call me naive when everything i say is coming true and everything you have supported is falling apart. Nobody gives a crap about our rights unless they serve their interests. Luckily Armenia being there serves the interest of atleast Russia but getting our lands back and genocide recognition by turckey is unimportant for the rest or the world today.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

What you are explaining proves my point, precisely. If Turkey becomes a member of the EU, and the Armenian “problem” is solved for good, the Europeans would have easier access to Azerbaijani and Central Asian oil without having to go through Russia. I should add that if the Armenian “problem” is solved there would be no need for Armenia to maintain a firm alliance with Russia like it used to. If we have a friendly or seemingly friendly neighbour why would we need Russia’s help now? So I do not see how this whole thing would give a firmer grip to Russia what goes on in Caucasus and the larger area.

Armenia cannot guerentee its own security thus it would still need russia very much. This whole thing would give russia a firmer grip because russia builds and controls infastructure in Armenia and can shut off the pipelines and trade routes at will. With more oil and money flowing through Armenia russias power increases because it has the power to shut it off!



True, Armenia has the potential to be an important transit route just as it used to be back in Antiquity or the Middle Ages (silk road) but it is not worth the stipulations in the protocols. Note that the protocols do not guarantee that Armenia will keep Karabagh and/or the surrounding areas. On the contrary it is still a big question mark as Karabagh is not mentioned at all in the text.

Not mentioning it is a big plus for our side.


If my explanations hold water, it would actually be of Russia’s interest to further the Armenian cause especially if its antagonism or rivalry to the EU / US is genuine. Things actually remind me to the situation of the late 1800s - early 1900s.

So I find it somewhat weird that Russia is implicated in the redaction of the protocols.

If you understood what i was writing you would not say this.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Opening borders is profitable for Turkey, Russia, EU and USA, it isn’t a concession for Turkey. But for Armenia it is, because the borders have been closed only by the Turkish side.

Doing this Turkey, Russia, EU and USA, based on the “third countries territorial integrity” provision of the “Protocol”, and impending threat of closing borders again, will prevent the war between Armenia – Azerbaijan, with great chances of solving the Artsakh issue soon on Azerbaijan’s favor.

All this is done to ensure stability and peace in Caucasus region for smooth functioning of the gas and oil pipelines; just the Russia-Azerbaijan-Turkey-Greece pipeline will bring Turkey huge profits; 15% of the proceeds, as I read about it during Erdogan-Putin negotiations.

Thus the only looser in this deal is Armenia.

Dear Gegev, don't pay mind to Haykakan, he is the one who has been the voice of naivete from the start of the degrading black issue of the protocols. Whatever the gain for Armenia, minimal or not it was certainly NEVER the price to sell out the Genocide recognition and our rights to our Western Armenian lands for renumeration by letting go into oblivion our very important cause. It wasn't right to let the perpetrators the murderors of a nation by turkey to be the winner of our lands after stealing all our lands since the Genocide. Vasak Serj Sargsyan will go into history as another demeaning personae who betrayed his country and possibly Artsakh in the future.

[firat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

301 is not a racist law,this is more better existence of such law instead of its absence. It creates balance.

Think about someone in Armenia is a writer or reporter or something like that insult all the Armenians, Armenian culture etc, how would be a reaction toward to him ? Can you imagine that ?

In Turkey ultra nationalists do not accept such a writer, but when Turkey has a law like 301, U-Nationalists think this man would go court (will be punished or not)........ anyway they stop their reaction, because of knowing existence of 301 creates check and balances.


BTW, Greece also threaten Turkey's territorial integrity, this is a mutual action.

i also think that you are right. 301 provides ultra nationalists to stop their actions against those who practice freedom of speech. The problem is however with the ultra nationalists not with those who enjoy free speech. A strong state and a democratic country must ensure its citizens every right to express their opinions unless these opinions do aim violence.

As far as i am concerned, not only the laws but also the mindset of the rulers and the bureaucracy does not allow people to feel safe to express themselves.

[londontsi]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

http://www.tert.am/en/news/2009/10/06/rascal/

‘Scum of the Nation’: Accusations But No Names
16:11 • 06.10.09

Republican Party of Armenia MP Karen Avagyan stated today that there have always been scum among the people, who, during Armenia’s history, have always impeded the establishment of Armenian-Turkish relations or its solution.

Avagyan, who had come to debate with Heritage Party Parliamentary Faction Leader Stepan Safaryan, said people who speculate about the Armenian Genocide in the presigned Armenian-Turkish Protocols are the nation’s scum, since the Protocols don’t mean that Armenia stops its pursuit for Genocide recognition or is going to discuss the issue. According to Avagyan, with the Protocols, Armenia will only discuss the issue of the Genocide consequences.

In answer to the question which of the three political parties speculating the Genocide issue (Armenian National Congress, Armenian Revoluiontary Federation – Dashnaktsutyun, or the Heritage Party) are the nation’s scum, Avagyan didn’t specify but simply stated, whoever speculates is the scum of the nation.