Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Does this mean the whole of Shahumian was liberated?

I wish! Shahumian is pretty big and is located just on top of NKR. Check the map.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Does this mean the whole of Shahumian was liberated?

Dude, don't start rumors. The liberated territory was in 'Martakert.' The clue to finding out exactly where: The liberated territory had a strategic hill named after or somehow associated with Monte Melkonian. Does his biography contain any information about any particular hill in Martakert?

[D3ADSY]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Why didn't Azerbaijan react? Aliev is always saying they are ready to retake the land by force and their military spending supports this, and yet they did nothing when faced with this?
You said the offensive put the Armenian units within easy striking distance of the BTC pipeline. Was this just for the duration of the operation or is it now a permanent strategic "leverage" Armenian forces hold over Azerbaijan. I mean, I guess the BTC pipeline was always within strike range right? But having units, as you say, within "easy" striking distance is different.
I really hope to read more about this.

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Lucin jan. Personally, I would 'still' want our border with Turkey to remain closed and I 'still' want us to psychologically and physically remain prepared to reclaim western Armenia. But due to the current geopolitical climate in the region I am no longer afraid of having open borders with Turkey. Armenia today is militarily and politically more stable than is has ever been in modern history, although that's not saying much. However, we need to 'evolve' with the current geopolitical climate and adapt to the major changes. Politics, international relations, diplomacy, foreign policy, etc., can't be written in stone, we are not a third world country nor are we a fundamentalist religious state. Armenia's health and nature is directly dependent upon the health and nature of the Caucasus region. If Turkey is afraid of Russia and now wants to talk to us and make offers, why not listen to them and consider their offers. Our Hai Dat is not going anywhere, Artsakh is not going anywhere, what are you so afraid of? My biggest concern about open borders is Turkey controlling Armenia's economy in the longterm.

Concerning Turkey controlling the Armenian economy, would a Russia who jumps to control even the Iranian gas pipeline to Armenia, allow such a thing to happen?

Besides the economy, the Armenian society will have to face many many issues on a social level. And, I don't think it's needed to go into details. You can imagine that…

And it's not about fundamentalism or religion. It's not America vs. Iran. It's about a big enemy who happens to be your neighbour. I don't think such a unique case exists anywhere in the world.

Incidentally, Armen Ayvazian 'not' against having open borders with Turkey under any and all circumstances. Based on what I have seen and heard from him, this is more-or-less his take on the matter: He is mainly and fundamentally afraid of "how" the borders are opened. Since he does not trust the 'live for today' mentality we Armenians have, since he thinks we are a politically immaturity nation, he would rather have the borders remain closed - to be on the safe side. I agree with him. Anyway, this matter should be seriously discussed and debated by all segments of Armenian society.

As far as I remember he was/is against open borders, under any circumstances with Armenia being within current borders.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

turkey rejects Armenian electricity deal

/PanARMENIAN.Net/ The Turkish state energy committee rejected the companies intending to import Armenian electricity. The committee conditioned its refusal by Armenia’s non-participation in Kars-Tbilisi-Baku project, Milliyet reports.

Earlier, Armenian Energy and Natural Resources Minister Armen Movsisyan said that Armenia will launch electricity delivery to Turkey in 2009. The agreement was signed during Turkish President Gul’s visit to Armenia, according to him.

http://panarmenian.net/news/eng/?nid=27046

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Concerning Turkey controlling the Armenian economy, would a Russia who jumps to control eve n the Iranian gas pipeline to Armenia, allow such a thing to happen?

Lucin jan, thank you for this point.

This is 'exactly' the point I was trying to make when I said after the recent events in the Caucasus I am no longer afraid of Turkey. Everyone in the region, especially Turkey and Azerbaijan, are now afraid of what Moscow will do next. Since Russia now controls all the major aspects of Armenia's economy and infrastructure, since Russia is now and will continue to be the undisputed political/military power in the Caucasus, I no longer have a fear of Turkey taking control of Armenia's economy and/or impacting Armenia's politics. Remember that Russia's control in the Caucasus was shaky at best before the Georgian war. The West, Persian Gulf states and the US were pouring billions of US dollars into Georgia's economy. Moreover, Israel, Ukraine and the West were preparing Georgia's military. There were grand plans for the region and Russia then was struggling to keep its presence in the region. Now all this has changed. The only potential problem I now see is a Russian one, Yerevan might someday be forced into concessions due to Russian pressure. However, with a Russia's presence in the Caucasus as strong as ever, I also expect peace, stability and significant economic growth for Armenia. However, this will be realized only after a new government is placed in Georgia, naturally a government that recognizes Moscow's preponderance.

As far as I remember he was/is against open borders, under any circumstances with Armenia being within current borders.

No, 'not' under any circumstances. I have spoken to him personally about this and I think in one of his video presentations I posted he mentions the same. He is concerned about "how" it's done. He sees the potential risk in unconditionally opening the borders. He wants such a move regulated and monitored by the government.

Why didn't Azerbaijan react? Aliev is always saying they are ready to retake the land by force and their military spending supports this, and yet they did nothing when faced with this?

I think it's very easy to see why Baku took this hit. The geopolitical situation in the Caucasus at the time was simply over their heads. They saw Moscow destroying their long held dreams in Tbilisi and they were terrified they could be next. Russia was most probably behind the fire that destroyed the BTC pipeline in Turkey the day before the war began, obviously Russia was also the one that bombed the pipelines in Georgia as well as bombing the railway carrying Azeri oil in Georgia, and it seems as if Russia was also somehow involved in Armenia's military move in Mardakert. This in a sense was a three pronged attack on the pipelines. Make no mistake, Baku sees the Artsakh military as Moscow long arm in the region. So with Moscow running amok all around Georgia blowing things up and threatening people, with Armenians making a bold move in Mardakert, Baku would not have taken any additional risks at the time. In the end of the day, its not about territorial integrity, it's not about national pride; it's all about money a government's desire to maintain power.

You said the offensive put the Armenian units within easy striking distance of the BTC pipeline. Was this just for the duration of the operation or is it now a permanent strategic "leverage" Armenian forces hold over Azerbaijan. I mean, I guess the BTC pipeline was always within strike range right? But having units, as you say, within "easy" striking distance is different.
I really hope to read more about this.

I don't know the answer to this. Apparently they are still there. Theoretically, the Artsakh military could hit the pipelines from their previous positions. However, such an operation becomes easier when you move closer to the target and control higher territory. Nonetheless, in my opinion, the military operation was more of a signal, a message, to Baku than an actual tactical move. I have a feeling sooner-or-later we will read about this.

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Why didn't Azerbaijan react? Aliev is always saying they are ready to retake the land by force and their military spending supports this, and yet they did nothing when faced with this?You said the offensive put the Armenian units within easy striking distance of the BTC pipeline. Was this just for the duration of the operation or is it now a permanent strategic "leverage" Armenian forces hold over Azerbaijan. I mean, I guess the BTC pipeline was always within strike range right? But having units, as you say, within "easy" striking distance is different.
I really hope to read more about this.

You sound disappointed as if your allegence is with Azerbaijan.

I noticed this about you many times while reading your posts.

I'll just be blunt...I strongly suspect you are a Turk.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You sound disappointed as if your allegence is with Azerbaijan. I noticed this about you many times while reading your posts. I'll just be blunt...I strongly suspect you are a Turk.

No, his points were legitimate. I think he is derived of Istanbul Armenian parentage, which may explain his odd behavior at times...

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

No, his points were legitimate. I think he is derived of Istanbul Armenian parentage, which may explain his odd behavior at times...

How could you be so sure about it? I simply thought the same as Crusader when I read his post. Lets ask him, see what he has to say?

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

No, his points were legitimate. I think he is derived of Istanbul Armenian parentage, which may explain his odd behavior at times...

It's not his points, it is his tone coupled with his history on this forum that points to "Turk".