Armenian-Turkish Relations

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Dear ArmSurvival,
Existence of one nation's extremism does not require that nation's government to conduct similar radical policies.

In other words you cannot find a single example of Armenian government extremism. I don't know what planet you live on, but government extremism is much more threatening than a few people saying things on the internet, and thus you cannot compare Turkish extremism to Armenian "extremism".

Dear ArmSurvival,
Existence of one nation's extremism does not require that nation's government to conduct similar radical policies. Telling that there is no radical Armenian is same with telling no communists or nationalists or liberals in Armenian society.
I believe that both Turkish and Armenian nations include people with various political stances. Some of them are fascists and chauvinists and I condemn that kind of people.
I met with people who truly wish annihilation of J'ewish people or people who start to swear as soon as they hear the word "Kurd". These are whom I call extremists and I have always opposed them.
I expect people to object to the ideas of other people who act with nothing but pure hatred.
As I mentioned earlier, in that forum one can claim that "the only good Turk is the that Turk". Who is a Turk anyway? Who has the right to decide who is good, who is bad, who has the right to live?
Or one can call Turkish as dog barking.
You should react such things. Don't lecture me about Turkish extremists, because I try my very best with them.

You're speaking hypothetically. I'm talking about real policies and specific actions.

Destruction of Armenians is of course undefendable. But how can you give this example as you justify ASALA by telling it is history.

Where did I justify ASALA? I only gave you facts which are not disputable: They only targeted diplomats (I said killed earlier but I meant targeted), there were only a hundred or so members, and they have not existed for over 20 years. But somehow its okay for Turks to use this non-existant group as an example of Armenian "extremism", but when Armenians give examples of many of the current extremist policies of Turkey, Turks tell us 'hey its not extremism, its just politics'.

Closing the borders with Armenia (I oppose that) or supporting Azerbaijan.. These are not examples of extremism, IMHO. This is politics.

Supporting a country like Azerbaijan who claims that Armenia's capital belongs to their country, and who threatens war every week for years now? Thats not extremism? Don't say ridiculous things like this and expect people to take you seriously.

And blockading over 80% of Armenia's border, leaving millions of people in a virtual siege for almost 20 years is not extremism? I'm glad we now understand what your criteria is for extremism.

At least ASALA only targeted government officials. Turkey targets Armenia's entire population.

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Nice post ArmSurvival. It was on point and irrefutable. Even so, I'm sure it will fall on seruven's deaf Turkish ears.
You certainly have more patience in dealing with these Turks than I do.
Do you really think these people like seruven can learn?

[seruven]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

In other words you cannot find a single example of Armenian government extremism.

I tell how extremism can exist independent of gov't policies, but you choose to ignore what I tell. So be it.
Regarding gov't extremism.. I didn't mention this subject, because it is not an easy issue to agree upon like individual extremism. Which policies will be called "extreme"? IMO, "liberalization" of N.K. was extreme which was probably not extreme for you. Armenia's policy towards genocide recognition might also be disputed in such a manner. So might Turkey's policies.

I don't know what planet you live on, but government extremism is much more threatening than a few people saying things on the internet

But at the end of the day, individual's opinions shape gov't policies.

You're speaking hypothetically. I'm talking about real policies and specific actions.

I gave two concrete examples of individual Armenian extremism from the forum which you chose to ignore.

Regarding ASALA..

They only targeted diplomats (I said killed earlier but I meant targeted

I took this info from wikipedia, thus it may include some errors. Please correct me if there are such mistakes.

The ASALA's most criticized attack was on August 7, 1982 in Ankara at the Esenboğa International Airport, when its members targeted both diplomats and non-diplomat civilians for the first time. Two militants opened fire in a crowded passenger waiting room. One of the shooters took more than 20 hostages while the second was apprehended by police. Altogether, nine people died and 82 were injured

On July 15, 1983, the ASALA carried out another attack at the Orly Airport near Paris, in which 8 people were killed.

Where did I justify ASALA?

ASALA hasn't existed since 1985. Don't use them as some kind of boogey-man. You cannot compare Armenian "extremism" to Turkish extremism: genocide of half our nation

I am repeating myself. You mention ASALA. Then you say it was 20 years ago (in order to smooth its effect). Then you mention "genocide" which happened 90 years ago.

Supporting a country like Azerbaijan who claims that Armenia's capital belongs to their country, and who threatens war every week for years now? Thats not extremism?

Turkey does not support Azerbaijan's claims over Yerevan. Actually, Turkish people are even not aware of such a claim.
Such a claim in the 21st century is as absurd as Armenia's territorial claims over its historical lands.

And blockading over 80% of Armenia's border, leaving millions of people in a virtual siege for almost 20 years is not extremism?

Armenia is not blockaded for the sake of blockading. I don't know if you are aware of it but there is a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan! The borders are not closed due to hatred.

I probably won't go on discussing this extremism issue. It seems you will protect your extremists as they are only three year old soccer players compared to their Turkish peers. Then let's wait Armenian "extremists" to grow up, and then maybe we accept their existence and tell them not to act with pure hatred, but with logic.

[garod]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Just in case you did not know, this garod character is a Turk not an Armenian and should be banned from here for using as deceitful name.

Bed and Two Bedside Tables Ferociously Attacking a Cello

[ara87]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Please understand, I have zero interest in achieving anything with you and your ilk. Save your hipocracy for some Armenian stupid enough to believe that a Turk is capable of acting in good faith.

With the way you sound, one would think that you'd be "dumb" enough to trust a Turk, but apparently your one step above that on the “i.q.” ladder . Btw oh one of superior intellect, it is spelled hypocrisy, but I’m sure you already knew that

What is it with you Turks? Why do you come here? You have no intention to accept the truth. You have no use for the truth. Anyway, good luck with the nationalist chest beating and screaming until you are all blue in the face. It is not our job to educate you. I just wish you would wallow in your ignorance and venom somewhere else besides this forum.

Wow with that kind of talk, perhaps will get somewhere, like in a 10,000 years or so……

IMO, "liberalization" of N.K. was extreme which was probably not extreme for you. Armenia's policy towards genocide recognition might also be disputed in such a manner. So might Turkey's policies.

Anything involving war is extreme, such as Turkey’s invasion of Cyprus to stop a coup against the Cypriot president and Greek annexation of the island, only to end up seizing the Northern part and setting up a mock puppet regime in support of Turkey.

Other examples of extremities:
*The destruction of historic Armenian grave yards and other Armenian monuments in Azerbaijan.
*The purposeful neglect of ancient Armenian monuments in Turkey
*Turkish renaming of particular flora and faunas scientific names to remove references to Armenians and Kurds.

In the Armenia vs Azerbaijan case, NK has been historically Armenian, and is still to this day populated by Armenians. As for why it was placed into the hands of the Azeri’s…..

From wikipedia

“……the Soviet Union also had far-reaching plans concerning Turkey, hoping that it would, with a little help from them, develop along Communist lines. Needing to placate Turkey, the Soviet Union agreed to a division under which Zangezur would fall under the control of Armenia, while Karabakh and Nakhchivan would be under the control of Azerbaijan. Had Turkey not been an issue, Stalin would likely have left Karabakh under Armenian control.[29] As a result, the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast was established within the Azerbaijan SSR on July 7, 1923.”

Also forget NK for just a minute just look at these maps


The whole area is set up for trouble.

Just because legal borders change doesn’t mean the population does. In the current map, besides Armenia separating Naxichevan from Azerbaijan, you have 2 official Azeri exclaves inside Armenia, and 1 official Armenian exclave inside Azerbaijan. Clearly (or at least 2 me) when Stalin was deciding all this, he specifically plotted it out this way so that if the day should come that the USSR ever fail, that Armenia and Azerbaijan engage in constant clashes so that Georgia would remain on top in the region (he was Georgian)

Armenia is not blockaded for the sake of blockading. I don't know if you are aware of it but there is a war between Armenia and Azerbaijan! The borders are not closed due to hatred.

1. There’s been a cease fire for years and fine both sides have violated it every now and then but you cannot say we are truly “at war.”
2. Between Armenia & Azerbaijan, not Turkey, it had nothing to do with Turkey. If the Azeri’s were non Turkic and non Muslim, would Turkey have really even cared? Or say (for arguments sake) that Armenians were Muslim, Turkic peoples, would Turkey have really cared if we attacked another Muslim Turkic state? Would turkey have stopped trade with Iran if it was them attacking Azerbaijan? I don't think so...

But at the end of the day, individual's opinions shape gov't policies.

yes and no, there are many policies enacted by governments world wide that have nothing to do with what the people want or need(just look at America).

Regarding ASALA..

Although I can understand where they were coming from, I think ALSLA was wrong, idiotic, counter productive, and extreme. All they achieved was to give us a bad name.

Such a claim in the 21st century is as absurd as Armenia's territorial claims over its historical lands.

Unless I am mistaken, Turks/Turkey support the Israeli’s claims over Israel/Palestine, however it had been 18 centuries since the roman’s deported them, and for centuries prior they had been ruled by other nations. So if their territorial claims aren’t absurd in the Turkish governments eyes, I don’t see why Armenia’s claims are.

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Ara87, you have been labeled a child by a few respected members here. Now you have achieved another title: Davajan.

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

...

Wow with that kind of talk, perhaps will get somewhere, like in a 10,000 years...

Your user name is enough to explain you. Sorry but your turn was seven centuries ago! I do not need applause or medal, I only need an open discussion.

...you see the similarities ara87. You think (and act) like a Turk.

Keep it up. Keep sticking up for Genocide deniers and pro Azeri scum. It seems that is all you are good for.

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Bed and Two Bedside Tables Ferociously Attacking a Cello

...I'm sure your imbecillic statement must be a Turkish proverb

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Here's an Armenian proverb for ara87:

Երբ որ կացինը եկաւ անտառ, ծառերը ասացին... «Կոտը մերոնցից է:»

Translation: When the axe came to the forest, the trees said: "The handle is one of us."

[crusader1492]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

For all the denialist Turks:

We do not have to prove anything on this or ay other site.

It is the opinion of world academia. If one wants to learn physics or any other subject it does not ask the propaganda department or a plumber or an architect or.... one asks a physics professor or the proper accredited person.

None of us on this site are history or genocide experts. We do not have access to archives nor can we authenticate them.

The only thing any reasonable person can do is deffer to the experts.

And the overwhelming majority of experts are in agreement - Armenian Genocide is a fact.