Elections in Armenia

[Lernakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

“Ever since signing the ceasefire with Azerbaijan in 1994, our economy was growing more intensively than the five years of Serzh Sargsyan’s governance. They [that is, the present-day authorities] condition this on the global economic crisis. In this case, two questions arise: How can one explain the fact that the economy reduced by 2 percent in the other countries, [but by] 15 percent in Armenia? In addition, the country was allocated $11 billion, [that is,] the same amount as the entire production of our country,” Bagratyan noted.

These idiots from the ANC can so easily be countered with substantive arguments that it's not even funny. I mean which other countries? What does he mean with the economy has reduced? Irenq esh en mer zhoxovurdin el drel en eshi tex!

[londontsi]

Re: Elections in Armenia

.........



The two main arguments I heard about the protocols by our people were:
1. The commission of historians to study the Armenian genocide;
2. Armenia would be flooded by turks/turkish products.

First of all no one from the ruling authorities in Armenia would ever in their right mind question the Armenian genocide. If there was to be such a commission it should be welcomed since we know what the facts are and there could only be one outcome of their research - that the atrocities that took place did amount to a Genocide. Why should we be afraid to discuss this issue with some turkish historians if we know the facts to be on our side?

I totally disagree.

As a negotiating tactic you never start to renegotiate a “universally” accepted fact.
The minute you start that you have lost the battle.

As an extreme example the minute you start ( or allow ) a debate that “you are not a fool” you are in deep trouble.
You would be tied in knots, you would not know what hit you.
Remember you are negotiating with your enemies who in turn have their own vested interest.

As for the second argument, this is only laughable since there are numerous ways you can protect your local market against flooding by foreign countries. European countries subsidize their farmers and have many laws protecting their local industries against flooding from China for example. I mean why should we even be afraid of this if you can simply counter it with laws. Also I just don't see it happening that turks en masse would choose Armenia as their holiday destination.

This is not a laughable matter unless you do not understand business and competition.

You do not need to flood the Armenian market with Turkish goods.
All you (they) have to do is to target with enough volume at targeted industries or agriculture to make them not achieve economic volumes (sales) to be profitable.
Many of our farmers have a pretty miserable existence, now imagine what would happen if they loose 25% of that sales volume.

As for being protected by law this would not work since Armenia is signatory to various international treaties which forbid protectionism.

[Lernakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

This is not a laughable matter unless you do not understand business and competition.

You do not need to flood the Armenian market with Turkish goods.
All you (they) have to do is to target with enough volume at targeted industries or agriculture to make them not achieve economic volumes (sales) to be profitable.
Many of our farmers have a pretty miserable existence, now imagine what would happen if they loose 25% of that sales volume.

As for being protected by law this would not work since Armenia is signatory to various international treaties which forbid protectionism.

Ah you again, well what you describe there is called flooding you genius. Since they have mass production they can sell their products far cheaper than our industries/farmers which would be bad for us. And before you start about the literal definition of flooding the market let me just say that some worried that our industries etc could not compete with theirs but I'm saying there are many ways in which we could prevent this and still have open borders. Is that clear enough for you? We shouldn't want Armenia to stay isolated forever just because of some fears should we? Thats a bit cowardly to say the least and very shortsighted.

If you think protectionism doesnt exist among WTO nations you are sadly mistaken. While in school we've learned a lot about ways in which countries can protect their local industries and there are plenty of ways.

Here is a small European example for you:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#mw-mf-search

And if you would follow some financial news you would've heard about the row between China and the US about protectionism:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18104024

Just search the web you'd be surprised.

[londontsi]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Ah you again, ......

Yes the man from Mars .... or the black man among the whites .... or maybe the Turk among the Armenians ....

..... well what you describe there is called flooding you genius. Since they have mass production they can sell their products far cheaper than our industries/farmers which would be bad for us. And before you start about the literal definition of flooding the market let me just say that some worried that our industries etc could not compete with theirs but I'm saying there are many ways in which we could prevent this and still have open borders. Is that clear enough for you? We shouldn't want Armenia to stay isolated forever just because of some fears should we? Thats a bit cowardly to say the least and very shortsighted.

If you think protectionism doesnt exist among WTO nations you are sadly mistaken. While in school we've learned a lot about ways in which countries can protect their local industries and there are plenty of ways.

Here is a small European example for you:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Agricultural_Policy#mw-mf-search

And if you would follow some financial news you would've heard about the row between China and the US about protectionism:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18104024

Just search the web you'd be surprised.

Your genius did not manage to understand that we are dealing with an enemy.

Trying to draw a parallel by comparing the row (protectionism ) between the US and China is naive to say the least.

The aim of the row between the US and China is to create a more favourable environment to take advantage of each others trade.
Neither is trying to destroy the other nor can they if they tried.

As time has showed Turkey never gave up trying to get its own way or Azerbaijan's way.
The majority of the Nation saw it. The President did not. His mistake was so great that his own people were shouting at him “traitor”.
Can you imagine what a bad miscalculation that was.

Turkey effectively has ( commercially speaking) a protectionist policy towards Armenia.
It will not allow any Armenian goods to be sold in Turkey. So Armenia trades with Turkey in a “protectionist” environment.

Why does Armenia not laugh it off and “simply” put in place some laws to counter the situation.
This has been going on for nearly twenty years. What is holding it back?

P.S. I remember when large amounts of tomatoes were being imported from Turkey at cheaper prices concerned people started complaining.
The President’s comments was to criticize the complainants for being against the consumers getting cheaper products!!

[Lernakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Yes the man from Mars .... or the black man among the whites .... or maybe the Turk among the Armenians ....

Those are your words not mine

Your genius did not manage to understand that we are dealing with an enemy.

Please, if you had read some of my posts you wouldn't say this. I say we shouldn't want Armenia to stay isolated and at the same time complain about the "bad" economic situation. Georgia is abusing the fact that they are our only transportation route to Europe so they double (at least) the transportation costs for Armenian products, in fact supporting the turkish/azerbaijani blockade against Armenia.
How is staying isolated going to help Armenia? You are really something....

Trying to draw a parallel by comparing the row (protectionism ) between the US and China is naive to say the least.

You really don't understand do you. I don't understand your way of thinking and never have.
I didn't draw parallels between their situation and ours you genius. You were saying that Armenia as a WTO member cannot protect its local industries and I was showing you that they can. There are many ways in which you can support your local industries, by subsidising them, by setting minimum prices for specific products, by setting high import duties for specific products etc. Many WTO members are doing this you genius, again if you were following some financial news you would know this.

The aim of the row between the US and China is to create a more favourable environment to take advantage of each others trade.

Thanks for the explanation, you truly are a genius. I couldn't think of that myself, thanks for clearing that up for me sir.

Neither is trying to destroy the other nor can they if they tried.

We shouldn't be such cowards and wish for Armenia to stay isolated forever. There are many ways in which we can protect our local industries/farmers and at the same time have open borders which will be great for our exports. We will have easier access to european markets and georgia would lose its leverage over Armenia. Geopolitically and economically speaking it would be beneficial for Armenia. National interests sir are more important than your fear of the turks.

As time has showed Turkey never gave up trying to get its own way or Azerbaijan's way.
The majority of the Nation saw it. The President did not. His mistake was so great that his own people were shouting at him �traitor�.
Can you imagine what a bad miscalculation that was.

Yes, I'm sure our diplomats and respectable President mr. Serzh Sargsyan took every option into account. The protocols failed but had they followed through than it would be only good for Armenia. I'm sure they also took into account that turkey could derail the process (as they did) but how would this be bad for us? It only showed the world where we stand and where turkey stands. They received a lot of criticism from around the world for derailling the process and there was also a row between them and azerbaijan which is only good for us. Diplomatically speaking it was brilliant and a clear victory for us.

His own people have proved throughout history that they don't understand a damn thing of politics, their emotions don't let them think clearly. It was really shameful how our President Serzh Sargsyan got received in Paris. Very very shameful and disrespectful, I mean the very first thing that our President did was to lay flowers at the Genocide momument and still our people didn't get the message. We can't let our emotions get in the way of our national interests, especially at this early and vulnerable stage of development for our Republic.

It will not allow any Armenian goods to be sold in Turkey.

You're wrong again, Armenian products can be sold on the turkish market. The amount of exports from Armenia to turkey is very very small but it still happens. If I'm not mistaken we export small amounts of tobacco leaves and rubber to turkey. I think it doesn't even amount to 2 million dollars a year (I don't remember the real numbers) but it still happens. However you can find turkish goods everywhere in Armenia from toothpicks (just look at the label of the toothpicks used in many of the caf�'s near the opera) to washing machines, textiles etc. etc.

I found an article about this but it seems the exports amounted to 1 million dollars only (2010 figures):

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-266656-trade-between-turkey-armenia-goes-on-amid-legal-woes.html

Why does Armenia not laugh it off and �simply� put in place some laws to counter the situation.
This has been going on for nearly twenty years. What is holding it back?

Armenia should pass laws to protect its local producers when necessary. And as I showed, Armenian goods are not forbidden to be sold in turkey.

Just so you get it I will repeat my words again for the third time. I hope your way of thinking doesn't get in the way to understand what I'm saying. All I'm saying is there are many ways for Armenia to protect its local industries/farmers withouth getting into trouble with the WTO and at the same time have open borders with turkey.

P.S. I remember when large amounts of tomatoes were being imported from Turkey at cheaper prices concerned people started complaining.
The President�s comments was to criticize the complainants for being against the consumers getting cheaper products!!

Please give me evidence of the criticism from the President. I remember the incident with the tomatoes too since it was only in 2011 but then again, Armenia can prevent this by passing different laws. If they haven't already they should now and especially if the border opens. This was a mistake on their part and they should protect local farmers.

Here is an article about that incident and as you can clearly read (the bold parts) there are ways in which a country can protect its local producers without getting into trouble with the WTO:

Armenian villagers unhappy with Turkish tomatoes

ISTANBUL - H�rriyet Daily News | 5/9/2011 12:00:00 AM | VERCİHAN ZİFLİOĞLU

A recent reaction by Armenian tomato producers to exports from Turkey was right, still the complaints did not require a halt in imports and exports between the two countries, an Armenian minister said.

A recent reaction by Armenian tomato producers to exports from Turkey was right, still the complaints did not require a halt in imports and exports between the two countries, said Armenian Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Rural Affairs Samvel Kalstyan.

As their products remained unsold, tomato producers in Armania held a protest last Friday in the Republic Square in Yerevan, the capital city, calling for a ban on tomatoes imported from Turkey.

Even though border gates between Armenia and Turkey are closed, businesspeople from both countries continue trading via Georgia.

Due to continental climate in the country, producers in Armenia are not able to plant sufficient amount of tomatoes. Tomatoes are raised only in greenhouses there.

Speaking to the H�rriyet Daily News, Armenian Deputy Minister of Agriculture and Rural Affairs Samvel Kalstyan said he found the reaction of Armenian people right. �Still, the situation does not require a halt in imports and exports between the two countries.�

Kalstyan said the Georgian government imposed a quota for potatoes and grapes imported from Armenia last year. �But this situation does not require a halt in imports and exports. Imports and exports can be continued with some measures and regulations, without making producers aggrieved,� Kalstyan told the Daily News.

Gagik Makaryan, chairman of the Republican Union of Employers of Armenia, who has close relations with businesspeople from Turkey since 2008, told the Daily News that reactions of Armenian producers are right. �First of all, the priority should be in Armenian producers. If not the production capacity in the country may be damaged.�

�Just like other countries, Turkey also imposes taxes and quota to its imports to not to damage its domestic market. This is normal. Otherwise, producers may be aggrieved and this causes inequality,� Makaryan said.

Farmers can obtain 70 to 80 kilograms tomatoes from one square meter land in Europe and Turkey, said Professor Antreas Melikyan from the Agrarian University in Yerevan. �But in Armenia, the production per one square meter is 20 kilograms,� Melikyan told the Daily News. �Due to difficulties and problems caused by the climate, villagers should be supported by the government.�

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/def...oes-2011-05-09

Londontsi this was my last reply to you, thanks for reminding me why I hadn't visited this forum for a long time. I will refrain from replying to your mostly nonsense statements. All the best to you mate!

[Serjik]

Re: Elections in Armenia

@ Lernakan I dont know who you are bro you are brilliant but you are throwing pearls in front of swine and in the end they will ban you because they are jealous, stupid and selfhating. Welcome to akhparistan LOL! My father used to say Armenians are Armenias worst enemy and seeing 99.9% people in forums like this I realize how right he was. But dont worry bro because in the end nationalists will always win because thats how our history is. btw these people complain about blockade 24/7 but when we try to end the blockade these people start complaining that we are trying to end the blockade LOL!

[londontsi]

Re: Elections in Armenia

@ Lernakan I dont know who you are bro you are brilliant but you are throwing pearls in front of swine and in the end they will ban you because they are jealous, stupid and selfhating. Welcome to akhparistan LOL! My father used to say Armenians are Armenias worst enemy and seeing 99.9% people in forums like this I realize how right he was. But dont worry bro because in the end nationalists will always win because thats how our history is. btw these people complain about blockade 24/7 but when we try to end the blockade these people start complaining that we are trying to end the blockade LOL!

In case you are following events of another country, for Armenia “the blockade will end” only when Karabagh is surrendered.
This is Azerbaijan's position. Turkey supports it 100%. It appears for now they will not compromise. Their thinking is that time is in their favour.

Therefore you cannot be both a nationalist as well as do “what is necessary” to end the blockade.

My view (whatever its worth) is we should not give not even an inch of Karabagh or surrounded liberated lands.

On the other hand use the blockade as a reason to politically attack Turkey/Azerbaijan and in parallel develop alternative routes for economic development.
This is at last being worked on.

Unfortunately many years were wasted trying to placate Turkey and the West’s interests.

Now maybe you might try and tell us what is your position.

[Hakob]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Yes the man from Mars .... or the black man among the whites .... or maybe the Turk among the Armenians ....





Your genius did not manage to understand that we are dealing with an enemy.

Trying to draw a parallel by comparing the row (protectionism ) between the US and China is naive to say the least.

The aim of the row between the US and China is to create a more favourable environment to take advantage of each others trade.
Neither is trying to destroy the other nor can they if they tried.

As time has showed Turkey never gave up trying to get its own way or Azerbaijan's way.
The majority of the Nation saw it. The President did not. His mistake was so great that his own people were shouting at him “traitor”.
Can you imagine what a bad miscalculation that was.

Turkey effectively has ( commercially speaking) a protectionist policy towards Armenia.
It will not allow any Armenian goods to be sold in Turkey. So Armenia trades with Turkey in a “protectionist” environment.

Why does Armenia not laugh it off and “simply” put in place some laws to counter the situation.
This has been going on for nearly twenty years. What is holding it back?

P.S. I remember when large amounts of tomatoes were being imported from Turkey at cheaper prices concerned people started complaining.
The President’s comments was to criticize the complainants for being against the consumers getting cheaper products!!

I actually think that turkish economy does a lot of damage to ours allready. Since there are no official trade agreements or trading policies between us and turkey, now turkish exporters are flooding our markets without tariffs or any quotas tru Georgian route with impunity. Go see Armenian markets laden with turkish products. I say more that 50% of everything sold is turkish now. And our government or farmers can't do anything. How can you reguate a trade that doesn't officially exist? It comes all as georgia or Iran exports and our policy towards them is so to say, "dependent"?

[londontsi]

Re: Elections in Armenia

........Londontsi this was my last reply to you, thanks for reminding me why I hadn't visited this forum for a long time. I will refrain from replying to your mostly nonsense statements. All the best to you mate!

If I was the reason for you not visit the forum then you should complain to the moderators that “Londontsi is talking too much sense. I cannot handle it”.

My feeling about having any debate with you is very similar to yours.
I will also follow my statement and advice to you that debating anything that is universally accepted as fact, would give a field day to the contrarians.

However I feel I should answer two points which you made ( among others) which characterise your logic.

You're wrong again, Armenian products can be sold on the turkish market. The amount of exports from Armenia to turkey is very very small but it still happens. If I'm not mistaken we export small amounts of tobacco leaves and rubber to turkey. I think it doesn't even amount to 2 million dollars a year (I don't remember the real numbers) but it still happens. However you can find turkish goods everywhere in Armenia from toothpicks (just look at the label of the toothpicks used in many of the caf�'s near the opera) to washing machines, textiles etc. etc.

I found an article about this but it seems the exports amounted to 1 million dollars only (2010 figures):

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-2666...egal-woes.html

From your referred article

Turkish exports to Armenia face some difficulties, too, but are nevertheless feasible. The main obstacle is an exclusion of Armenia from Turkey’s export destinations. To overcome this, Turkish drivers travel with two invoices. The first is for a third country (usually Georgia), to move the cargo out, and the second is for the actual destination, Armenia. It is plain to everybody, but the solution seems mutually acceptable. “Sure I know about some difficulties. To get over them, papers are modified in some way in Georgia.

You actually describe this type of activity "Armenian goods being (imported and ) sold in Turkey".
In anybody's book this is smuggling not import. Maybe one notch above smuggling contraband but smuggling all the same.

Please give me evidence of the criticism from the President........

!!!!

I do not have evidence to hand. I do not keep a dossier of his statements agreeable or disagreeable.
If you follow news from Armenian TV you would have heard it.

.

[londontsi]

Re: Elections in Armenia

I actually think that turkish economy does a lot of damage to ours allready. Since there are no official trade agreements or trading policies between us and turkey, now turkish exporters are flooding our markets without tariffs or any quotas tru Georgian route with impunity. Go see Armenian markets laden with turkish products. I say more that 50% of everything sold is turkish now. And our government or farmers can't do anything. How can you reguate a trade that doesn't officially exist? It comes all as georgia or Iran exports and our policy towards them is so to say, "dependent"?

We have clearly defined borders.

We have custom controls and personnel controlling it, not to forget that they have eyes.

We have also Government/Ministries who run the countries' affairs to its peoples advantage.

NOW

To say “how to regulate trade that does not exist” is misrepresentation.
These imports are not smuggled but openly enter the country.

If these imports were ( selectively ) not allowed into the country nobody would be able to complain....... since this trade does not exist !!!
It would be farcical for Turkey to complain about it.

.