Elections in Armenia

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Immediately, it transpired that Raffi was hovering up the votes.

"Hovering up votes" - how does one do that? Rotate very rapidly like a helicopter, perhaps?
Mr Ahern really should know the difference between hovering and hoovering - even allowing for his education in a Catholic school.

Actually (looking at it again) the whole letter is shockingly badly written! His points would be far more convincing, and far less easy to avoid, if it had been composed better.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Elections in Armenia

You may have a point about his margin of victory but it could also be due the fact that Armenia has made progress on holding fairer elections. Either way i shutter to think what redneck Raffi would do if he gaines power. I would much rather stick with the present olis and Sarkisian then bring in a new set of foreign olis and redneck Raffi. I see nothing about Raffi that says he will do anything better then Serj has done. If you are going to call for revolution then you should have something to offer that the present power does not but i do not see Raffi offering anything of value to the armenian people. He sounds just like any other USA politition and is just as corrupt which makes him a worst option then Serj in my eyes. I am for anything that will improve the security and living conditions of armenians in Armenia but i do not see any of these things being better under Raffi-as a matter of fact i see both possibly being compromised much more so under Raffi then under Serj. Serj has done a great job to play Russia and the west against each other and has reaped the rewards from both while Raffi wants to sever ties with Russia Shakasvillie style. If Raffi gets his way who is going to defend Armenia from the turkish hoards? Some reforms were carried out under Serj during his first term and they worked. The unfortunate thing is that sometimes when you reform the masses become greedy and start demanding things that cannot be done. Thats when the likes of Raffi step in and deal a potential fatal blow to the nation. Sarkisyan's balanced approach to foreign policy issues is as far as i would like to see our policy move twords the west. What Raffi offers is far too dangerous and has been proven over and over again that the west cares more about making the turk content then caring for the existence of Armenia. Think about Armenias situation (blockade, war, earthquake, corruption..) then think about how far we have come since independence and LTP. Do we really want to go back to the days of LTP again by electing his buddy Raffi? The problems and dangers Armenia faced then have not gone away-those dangers are still very much there just waiting for another LTP to come along and shatter Armenia. Do not be a fool by supporting a redneck who offers you nothing but death-just ask paron redneck Raffi what his security plan is for Armenia and then ask yourself if it sounds like a plan you would want you and your family to live under.

What strikes me is how every point you make is invalid. Your understanding of the purpose of elections, the purpose of democracy, the purposes of culture and society itself, are irreconcilable with (and very far away from) what any reasonable person would want to see for Armenia's future. You are a supporter of the "culture of hegemony" this article talks about. Armenia is basically finished as a country unless it can rid itself of it.

YEREVAN'S STRIKING STUDENTS: A CLASH OF INTERESTS AND CULTURES HRANT GADARIGIAN

http://hetq.am/eng/news/23886/yerevan%E2%80%99s-striking-students-a-clash-of-interests-and-cultures.html

12:41, February 27, 2013

I got a call this morning to head down to Yerevan State University
to cover the third day of student protests in the Armenian Capital.

When I arrived the opposing camps had already been separated by
police. It was a stand-off as I perceived it.

One the one side, the activists were urging students to join the
ranks. The boycott was to protest what the strikers deemed as the
rigged February 18 presidential election.

The walk-out of college and university students began on Monday.

It now seems that the administrations of Yerevan State University and
the nearby State University of Medicine have effectively clamped down
on the mobility of students.

The strikers aren't being allowed to approach the campuses to get
their message across.

At Yerevan State University, several scuffles broke out between
students on both sides of the divide. Several student "leaders"
from the school called the protestors "outside agitators" who were
disrupting normal school life.

A few school administrators also were on the scene, basically demanding
that the activists leave.

It is apparent that the student activists have a tough road ahead of
them if they plan to continue such actions.

There is a clash of cultures and interests unfolding in the streets
of Yerevan today.

Had it not been for the actions of the strikers and their supporters,
this underlying tension would remain hidden to the naked eye.

But it exists and reveals a true social divide in Armenia.

The strikers are in a head to head confrontation with the "culture
of hegemony", as described by Antonio Gramsci, that permeates all
aspects of life in Armenia.

It is especially entrenched in Armenia's educational institutions
where the ruling regime, as embodied by the Republican Party, holds
sway through a myriad of mechanisms - nepotism, intimidation, pseudo
student councils, etc.

It is evident that many students inside these institutions have
consciously or otherwise bought into this regime imposed worldview
that has been accepted as the cultural and social norm.

The regime has created a system of beliefs, perceptions and values
that are to be taken as valid. Students are exposed to them daily
and are co-opted into the dominant system.

I saw the strikers being castigated as "puppets of the west" and
"enemies of the Armenian people".

While the police tried to maintain some semblance of neutrality,
it was evident where their sentiments lay.

I overhead a few police officials "advising" students opposing the
strikers as to tactics.

One or two of the top cops on the scene, even confessed that the
strike leaders held values that contradicted the traditional beliefs of
"true Armenians".

Mention was even made of Yeghia Nersesyan, a civic activist widely
known for his involvement in the Teghout and Mashtots Park protests.

The police official hinted that Nazaryan, originally from Syria,
was a ring-leader who had imported "alien" values to Armenia.

This, I found most disturbing. Not only was an attempt being made to
create an artificial divide amongst the students (the strikers were
"bad" and those who opposed them as "good"), but there was a subtle
undertone of discrimination between local and outside Armenians.

In the end, the dominant cultural hegemony dictates that to "protest"
is bad, something alien to Armenian society.

It thus follows, that those engaged in protest are "outsiders" and
"provocateurs", trying to corrupt that idealized society.

This is the social process that is unfolding in Armenia today;
whether in Freedom Square or the courtyard of Yerevan State University.

[TomServo]

Re: Elections in Armenia

What strikes me is how every point you make is invalid. Your understanding of the purpose of elections, the purpose of democracy, the purposes of culture and society itself, are irreconcilable with (and very far away from) what any reasonable person would want to see for Armenia's future. You are a supporter of the "culture of hegemony" this article talks about. Armenia is basically finished as a country unless it can rid itself of it.

OMG, since when did Armenian journalists start citing Gramsci?

But if hegemony/power is everywhere, can Armenian citizens ever really be free? There will always be structures of hegemony, even if the Sargsyan government is supplanted. And since the individual is a "fictitious atom" (Foucault) that is not a natural part of humanity but created by society, isn't there something wrong with making people act like they're individuals?

Nevertheless, I'd certainly prefer Raffi's culture of hegemony over the one that currently exists.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Elections in Armenia

OMG, since when did Armenian journalists start citing Gramsci?

But if hegemony/power is everywhere, can Armenian citizens ever really be free? There will always be structures of hegemony, even if the Sargsyan government is supplanted. And since the individual is a "fictitious atom" (Foucault) that is not a natural part of humanity but created by society, isn't there something wrong with making people act like they're individuals?

Nevertheless, I'd certainly prefer Raffi's culture of hegemony over the one that currently exists.

Eeek ... that's getting too intellectual.

The first step is for the Armenian electorate to actually want to be as free as they reasonably can be, and to believe that they are not getting that want futhfilled by the current system. The election results show that the majority seemto be at that stage, but it is not a big majority (yet).

Armenia's current culture of hegemony means that there has to be a great many more "have nots" than "haves", so democracy and equality and individuality can never flourish since that would mean the "have nots" demanding much more than the little they are given (note how Haykakan complains that they have "become greedy"). And most of the "haves" don't even get much compared to the "haves" at the top of the power pyramid. If only they would realise that they too would be better off in a new Armenia. The trouble is, the population has had a pressure release valve called emigration that allows them to escape to countries whose cultures of hegemony are less heavy-handed.

[TomServo]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Eeek ... that's getting too intellectual.

The first step is for the Armenian electorate to actually want to be as free as they reasonably can be, and to believe that they are not getting that want futhfilled by the current system. The election results show that the majority seemto be at that stage, but it is not a big majority (yet).

Armenia's current culture of hegemony means that there has to be a great many more "have nots" than "haves", so democracy and equality and individuality can never flourish since that would mean the "have nots" demanding much more than the little they are given (note how Haykakan complains that they have "become greedy"). And most of the "haves" don't even get much compared to the "haves" at the top of the power pyramid. If only they would realise that they too would be better off in a new Armenia. The trouble is, the population has had a pressure release valve called emigration that allows them to escape to countries whose cultures of hegemony are less heavy-handed.

LOL, bell, I agree with you. Unlike in 2008, there seems to be a lot more pressure from the diaspora this time around (but not enough), as well as a lack of unanimity amongst Armenians within and without Armenia, which can only be a good thing.

And I was only kidding with all the Foucauldian stuff. Foucault actually had the luxury of theorizing within a country that was (and is) much freer than Armenia (though not nearly as free as Foucault would have wanted it to be).

[Artashes]

Re: Elections in Armenia

LOL, bell, I agree with you. Unlike in 2008, there seems to be a lot more pressure from the diaspora this time around (but not enough), as well as a lack of unanimity amongst Armenians within and without Armenia, which can only be a good thing.

And I was only kidding with all the Foucauldian stuff. Foucault actually had the luxury of theorizing within a country that was (and is) much freer than Armenia (though not nearly as free as Foucault would have wanted it to be).

---- as well as lack of unanimity amongst Armenians within and without Armenia , which can -- only -- be a good thing ---
???
Is that really what you ment to say ?
Artashes
Discord is always a good thing ? Lack of agreement is a good thing ?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Elections in Armenia

---- as well as lack of unanimity amongst Armenians within and without Armenia , which can -- only -- be a good thing ---
???
Is that really what you ment to say ?
Artashes
Discord is always a good thing ? Lack of agreement is a good thing ?

It will be exactly what he meant to say.

Only the likes of Vahram go on and on about the need for "agreement" and "unity". The people in my "Fascistic or Religious Extremist Organisations Operating Inside Armenia" thread are the same sort. So to, increasingly, is the Armenian Church. It is always an "agree to do what I want, and if you don't you are not a proper Armenian" sort of demand for unity, and it only results in actually increasing discord and division.

[Artashes]

Re: Elections in Armenia

It will be exactly what he meant to say.

Only the likes of Vahram go on and on about the need for "agreement" and "unity". The people in my "Fascistic or Religious Extremist Organisations Operating Inside Armenia" thread are the same sort. So to, increasingly, is the Armenian Church. It is always an "agree to do what I want, and if you don't you are not a proper Armenian" sort of demand for unity, and it only results in actually increasing discord and division.

---- only the likes of Vahram go on about " need for agreement and unity " ---
How dare Vahram even suggest we Armenians NEED agreement and unity .
Your above comment about the church and others contriving to get agreement with what " they " want , and substituting that as -- agreement and unity -- is false and quite misleading .
Agreement and unity and contrived agreement and unity aren't the same thing at all .
Divergent opinions and discussion of path forward are healthy but are not mutually exclusive .
Are you and Tom Servo actually arguing AGAINST agreement and unity ?
Your substituting contrived manipulation for agreement and unity is quite sly and fraudulent .
Agreement and unity through understanding is the path forward .
Artashes
--- it only results in discord and division ---
Bell points to fraudulent activities (but) labels them -- agreement and understanding -- and then goes on to point out that the fraudulent activity which bell labeled as " agreement and unity " was the cause of --- discord and division ---
--- agreement and unity --- are the exact opposite of --- discord and division --- !
Agreement and unity --- DO NOT --- lead to discord and division .

[Haykakan]

Re: Elections in Armenia

One of the issues humans have is their ability to forget the past which leads to them repeating their own mistakes over and over again. This same kind of atmosphere was in place when the armenians demanded independence from the soviet union decades ago yet here we are after all that time and the living standards of the citizens of Armenia are still not at the levels they were during soviet times. People gave the exact same arguments then that the kitty is giving now yet somehow all these promises of freedom and democracy never materialize. Could it be due to some bad luck(hay baght) or perhaps it is due to the fact that such things do not exist to begin with? Just ask the citizens of the most powerful democracy the world has ever known about how content they are about their government. You guys just dont seem to get it-free and fair elections mean nothing if people are hungry. If you are upset about the oligarchs then you need to become more of a socialist country because regardless of what you do capitalism always concentrates wealth in a uneven manner even in countries people here like to use as examples like the scandanavian countries. There is a hierarchy of human needs which need to be adressed in that order or else the efforts to adress higher needs without addressing the basic ones will be futile. People worry about putting food on the family table, warming their homes, and being safe first before they start caring if their votes count or not. I keep saying that Armenia cannot guerantee her own security but it seems to be falling on deaf ears. If you cannot guarentee the security of your own people then you cannot progress and effectively address the higher needs. You guys seem to think that Armenia can do it all without worrying about the very basic issue of security and as always such assumptions are dead wrong just like history has so painfully proven to us the armenians over and over and over again. But hey look everybody else is going for democracy so we have to do it to, o and look everybody else is going for capitalism so we have to do it to..its the typical bandwagon jumper mentality that all humans share and the reason why we will always keep making the same mistakes over and over and over again and again and again..Individual freedom is meaningless to a guy that is dead or starving and if you think Armenia is very far from being dead or starving then you need to take your rosy sunglasses off because if the likes of Raffi finely convince the russians to forget about Armenia then the dreams of the the lot called Talat and Envir will finely come true - the only armenian will indeed be in a museum but he wont be called an armenian he will be called the long lost ancestor of the turk. Bell you are right - armenians do have a diaspora and will leave for it but you are wrong about why they leave. They do not leave because they didnt want to try-they leave because reality is grim. These people survived war, hunger, cold, earthquake, thieves and traitors.. yet they still did not get security or even the lives they once had decades ago. Its not so easy to leave the place you call home-the place of your ancestors-the city with that beutifull mountain which seems so close yet lies so far from reach. If you want meaningful change you will have to change the economic system otherwise people will be saying the same ccrap about Raffi as they are saying about Serj now in the not too distant future. The older you get the more you start to realize that history repeats itself and if you do not want another genocide or to lose our homeland yet again then you have to do something different this time. Jumping on the bandwagon doesnt work-you eventually need to settle down and build. If Raffi was a builder-a man who wanted to make real change which would better the lives of the people in Armenia then i would be all for him being elected but looking at Raffi is just like looking at Obama or Romney-people obssessed with power and themselves, who will stop at nothing to get what they want regardless of how many must be killed or jailed or robbed.. The diaspora is a blind man and now the blind man wants to lead the country. I think you can figure out how this one is going to end even before it begins.

[Vahram]

Re: Elections in Armenia

Only the likes of Vahram go on and on about the need for "agreement" and "unity".

LOL!!! This guy is something else. This is the best he can do to insult me?...ROTF

Yes sorry for asking my people to have some unity and agreement, I guess in your twisted world these are considered insults. Why don't you first try and read what you write and then post it? This way I can't so easily make an arse out of you with your own words...ROTF!

The people in my "Fascistic or Religious Extremist Organisations Operating Inside Armenia" thread are the same sort. So to, increasingly, is the Armenian Church.

The hussars are coming! Don't dare say anything in front of this cat, as he has so much hate for the church, he might even burn Raffi at the stake...ROTFLMAO

Oh bell thanks for the laughs buddy, all this church attack by an Englishmen who long ago defamed the church. A church created by a king in order to have as much sex as possible....ROTF

Another words standard English debauchery, and he has advice for Armenians...LOL

What should we do bell hang and behead our wives to keep you happy?...LOL

Hey bell can you walk on custard?

LOL thanks for the laughs bell!!!