Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Ill give an example for when it has been used

"Einch gines gor"

Which in eastern would be Einch anumes?

Isn't "Intch anum es" the equivalent of "Intch g'@nes?" How do you distinguish in Eastern Armenian between "Intch g'@nes" and "Intch g'@nes gor?"

[Alexzan]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Isn't "Intch anum es" the equivalent of "Intch g@nes?" How do you distinguish in Eastern Armenian between "Intch g@nes" and "Intch g@nes gor?"

Beg your pardon? Sorry, I didn't understand what you were asking.

If you are asking how I tell Eastern Armenian and Western apart? It is by the way they speak. My fathers side of the family extends everything at the end when they speak.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Isn't "Intch anum es" the equivalent of "Intch g'@nes?" How do you distinguish in Eastern Armenian between "Intch g'@nes" and "Intch g'@nes gor?"

Beg your pardon? Sorry, I didn't understand what you were asking.

If you are asking how I tell Eastern Armenian and Western apart? It is by the way they speak. My fathers side of the family extends everything at the end when they speak.

1. I said: Isn't "Intch anum es" the equivalent of "Intch g'@nes" - and not "Intch g'@nes gor?"

2. I asked: How do you distinguish, in Eastern Armenian, between "Intch g'@nes" and "Intch g'@nes gor?"

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Ill give an example for when it has been used

"Einch gines gor"

Which in eastern would be Einch anumes?

First of all, in Eastern Armenian it would be " inches anum?" and not "inch anumes?" secondly in the Eastern dialect the present simple and present continuous tenses are the same and one can be distinguished from the other inside the context or by simply adding certain adverbs such as the following; " inches anum?" "girk em kartum, hima." "utumem arayjms", etc.

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Ill give an example for when it has been used

"Einch gines gor"

Which in eastern would be Einch anumes?

First of all, in Eastern Armenian it would be " inches anum?" and not "inch anumes?"

Though the correct syntax may be "Intch es anum" - not "Intches anum," if one should be grammatically correct; the "degenerate" interrogative form is relatively common in languages, when spoken.

secondly in the Eastern dialect the present simple and
present continuous tenses are the same and one can be distinguished
from the other inside the context or by simply adding certain adverbs
such as the following; " inches anum?" "girk em kartum, hima." "utumem arayjms", etc.

Using temporal adverbs or "paraphrasing" - what I usually do - is not a solution, but only a workaround that works sometimes; in fact
1. Both "I am exercising" - for instance, as a recurrent activity - and "I am exercising, now" are valid and have different meanings and a temporal adverb is already used in the latter
2. "I swim, now" - i.e. I did not in the past, but I do now - does not mean "I am swimming;" using temporal adverbs when translating would confuse the two
There are many such examples and some are real subtle and/or complicated. Furthermore, It becomes more complicated and subtle when the action happens - or is happening - in the past or the future.

I have a certain "bias" against "gor" and I do a lot of effort to avoid using it; however, I can't deny that it's existence is legitimate and reflects a serious shortcoming of the Armenian language - that was solved in spoken Western Armenian with the usage of "gor." Armenian grammarians and linguists, instead of criticizing and snubbing the usage of "gor," should maybe work on a solution; as they are responsible for the situation. A simple solution - as it is in French - may be found.

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

I think the continuous is well defined in Eastern:

I am going (pres cont) - Yes gnum em
I was going (past cont) - Yes gnum ei
I will be going (future cont) - Yes gnalu em as opposed to Yes kgnam (simple future) which is I will go.
I would have been going (weird cont) - Yes gnalu ei

So, maybe the continuous in not defined in Western, because the -um suffix is not used in Western? So, to distinguish the future continuous from simple future tense, the Western Armenian adds "gor". I don't know, is this right?

[Siamanto]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

I think the continuous is well defined in Eastern:

I am going (pres cont) - Yes gnum em
I was going (past cont) - Yes gnum ei
I will be going (future cont) - Yes gnalu em as opposed to Yes kgnam (simple future) which is I will go.
I would have been going (weird cont) - Yes gnalu ei

I'm afraid that the above does not answer the simple question raised earlier: How do you distinguish, in Eastern Armenian, between "I go" and "I am going?" In case, you'll suggest to use temporal adverbs, please refer to my reply to Lucin. Thanks.

So, maybe the continuous in not defined in Western, because the -um suffix is not used in Western? So, to distinguish the future continuous from simple future tense, the Western Armenian adds "gor". I don't know, is this right?

Yes, as mentioned above, the continuous form does not exist in Western Armenian and the usage of "gor" seems to be a solution in the spoken language. However, according to some - including Armenian Verbs or Verbs in Eastern Armenian - the form that you have suggested above is not the continuous form??? In other words, some seem to think that "um" does not indicate the continuous form????

[Lucin]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Though the correct syntax may be "Intch es anum" - not "Intches anum," if one should be grammatically correct; the "degenerate" interrogative form is relatively common in languages, when spoken.

Iharke, the correct syntax should be "inch es anum?", and this is uniquely the written form of the verbs. But, as a rule, verbs must be pronounced attached (inches anum?) when spoken or when an article, a text (or anything) is being read.

Using temporal adverbs or "paraphrasing" - what I usually do - is not a solution, but only a workaround that works sometimes; in fact
1. Both "I am exercising" - for instance, as a recurrent activity - and "I am exercising, now" are valid and have different meanings and a temporal adverb is already used in the latter
2. "I swim, now" - i.e. I did not in the past, but I do now - does not mean "I am swimming;" using temporal adverbs when translating would confuse the two

Yes, unfortunately it just works sometimes and mainly in the present continuous tense with certain verbs. The progressive meaning is mainly indicated by the context in the Eastern dialect.
As for what Karo said; "Yes gnum em" can mean "I am going" as well as "I go" and the "-um" in "gnum" cannot indicate the continuous tense; as it's the same in the present simple.( It's the infinitif "gnal" which has been tranformed into "gnum" in conjugation.)

There are many such examples and some are real subtle and/or complicated. Furthermore, It becomes more complicated and subtle when the action happens - or is happening - in the past or the future.

For the future continuous, again we do have problems ( as you said). Karoaper said; I will be going= Yes gnalu em, but again it does not work with quite a lot of verbs, and we tend to use more, the future simple instead.

Apparently, the future continuous form does not exist in French either.( As there are only two main future tenses.)

I have a certain "bias" against "gor" and I do a lot of effort to avoid using it; however, I can't deny that it's existence is legitimate and reflects a serious shortcoming of the Armenian language - that was solved in spoken Western Armenian with the usage of "gor." Armenian grammarians and linguists, instead of criticizing and snubbing the usage of "gor," should maybe work on a solution; as they are responsible for the situation.

It might not be a big issue for us but it'd definitely be an impediment for our translators.

A simple solution - as it is in French - may be found.

Etre en train de...?? Again it is not a seperate tense as in English, it's more like a made-up formula. And at times, the simple future is used instead.
I was a bit underestimating English ( compared to some other languages) but its grammar seems pretty subtle, detailed and complete, at least when it comes to verb tenses.

[karoaper]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

Yeah, we indeed do have the same form for present continuous and the present indefinite.

I think that's the only confusion though. The situation with other continuous forms is unambiguous. I'd say that since we have the past continuous and the future continuous, as I had mentioned in the previous post, the form "-um em" is primarily for the present continuous tense.

Lucin jan, you mentioned that the future continuous doesn't work with many verbs. I just woke up but I can't think of one. Can't you just add the "-elu em" to any verb?

[Կարմիր Բ]

Re: Western dialect vs. Eastern dialect

The ''eastern dialect'' has the correct pronouncing and the ''western dialect'' the correct spelling.