Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I don't disagree with this assessment per se. My quibble is that you somehow try to pigeonhole this phenomenon as only among Armenians.

What gave you that impression? I believe that enough was said to suggest that it can also be observed in other communities, less in some and more in others.

In fact, I would go further than you and state that femininity is the lost art of modernity which has been confused and replaced with vulgarity, almost akin to a false idol. In fact, I would say that most women in America (of whatever ethnic origin) and probably Europe, have lost the ability to discern how to woo a man using their gracefulness and serenity, and resort to vulgarity instead.

For example, I live in Southern California and I have seen first hand the "sameness effect" among all stripes of women from all ethnic backgrounds. By the "sameness effect" I mean that all women, more or less, have resorted to the same cheap vulgarity of trying to seduce a man, not by their gracefulness or femininity, but by how much they can cheapen themselves in the process. The one common bond all these women have is the same slutty, materialistic obsession with vanity and self as the only way to seduce and charm.

This phenomenon with which you are concerned is the result of a collision of old and new world values and this is why I have seen many different ethnic girls - whether they're from Latin America, from East Asia, Southeast Asia, etc. - resort to the phenomenon you are describing. In essence, by a drastic exposure to such liberalism as it pertains to gender, sexuality and identity, most people do not have the capacity to "weather the storm" so to speak and thereby process this in a gradual progression. Instead, they are almost immediately imbued with these things, soak it in, and proceed in strides of leaps and bounds. Add to the fact that sexuality is bombarded on them, from every orifice of communication, since birth, then you have what have.

Though interesting, that is a different subject.
First of all the issue that I have raised existed in the past and continues to exist, but to a lesser degree. Keffir was not an usual case, and the problem persists even today.
On the contrary, the issue that you have raised is becoming more acute with time, according to you.

Second of all, the issue that I have raised is less acute in some communities, and more in others i.e. it is community dependent. On the contrary, the issue that you have raised is characterized by the "sameness effect" according to you.

Most of all, the issue that I have raised is gender specific, while the one that you have raised is not. In fact, the may argue that the same can be said about masculinity i.e. virility, honor, integrity are values that have known the same faith as femininity.

I don't intend to discuss the issue that you've raised, and though I can understand and respect the anachronism in your views and values, I can't understand and respect your "despise" of women. I'm also taking in consideration your post about "sl.uts".

By the way, I prefer hrai's description, because it's more articulate, to the point, gender neutral, complete yet concise. Also, it is void of the "despise" that I see in your post.

Because they like being hostile and suspicious.

Why do they like being hostile? How charming.

Maybe Kattie should have been a bit more descriptive in what she meant by "handicapped because of their upbringing" - I thought she meant something broader than just relationships with the opposite sex.

A handicap is anything that reduces our chances to reach a goal. "Upbringing" is an umbrella word and closest match for a word that I could not find that includes values transmitted by family/community members, values/customs that regulate the behavior of members of a community, restrictions imposed by cultural values/customs etc.

The examples that I've given as a starting point were not limited to relationships with the opposite sex. The example given by Keffir was descriptive enough.
Being silenced, and unlearning to charm can have consequences that can later become handicaps in all kinds of relationships and interactions.
Being silenced and "male favoritism" can cause low self-esteem, as Gavur emphasized.

I will not discuss the details, but I've seen cases where the man was eager to be with an Armenian woman, but ended up with a non-Armenian because of those handicaps, I will mention only two: Once the magic of the "first months" faded away, the men complained that the women were either unwilling or "unable" to charm, as if something was holding them back, or as if they were not even aware that it's part of the game or...By the way, the women did not want to break up and were apparently satisfied with the relationship.
The second handicap is the fact that they are not allowed to freely communicate with the men.

Is that any better?

Maybe that is another inevitable effect of the Genocide, and its unresolved (i.e. denied) status.

The same is true of relationships, we can't forgive and start forgetting as long as the wrongdoing is not recognized, and most importantly understood by the other person.

What's up with you? I keep things simple and talk normally with you and you suddenly get all sarcastic, lol....I have more important things to do.

I am so grateful that you're "keeping things simple" for us/me and "keeping them short", that's so thoughtful and kind of you.
I'm sure that you have many more important things to do, and though you're input is so valuable, please feel free to focus on the "more important things".

And how would you know?!?!?

You may have heard about a recent discovery, it was all over the news about a year ago. It's an incredibly amazing, yet simple technique that allows a person to communicate with others using their lips and no other instruments to transmit words, and others to use their ears and no other instruments to receive the transmitted words. It uses the same principles as radio transmission, who would have guessed? I used that technique to capture the waves transmitted by Armenians who had plans to go Armenia to get married. Isn't it magical?
I sincerely recommend you to try it, specially the listening part.

Things wouldn't have changed as drastically. I suggest you look at the bigger picture, Kattie.

You wonder how a person can become aware of the intentions of others living in the same community, yet you can figure out the course of history had different scenarios occurred? Don't we all love a not-self-centered, modest Armo?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I can't believe my eyes!!!!! You couldn't figure out whether she's French or Armenian? I don't mean to disrespect, but how confused or unintuitive are you? Did you read her posts?

Yes, did you read my comment? Her comment sounded like a whole lot of disrespect for her father, her family and disappointment for her Armenian roots. I doubt someone of her age would be promoting assimilation.

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Yes, did you read my comment? Her comment sounded like a whole lot of disrespect for her father, her family and disappointment for her Armenian roots. I doubt someone of her age would be promoting assimilation.

Yes, I did. No, her comment does not sound like a "whole lot of disrespect". Do you make even the slightest effort to understand and communicate or your sole purpose is to be part of a conversation and kill time? Is this a chatroom for you?

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I will not discuss the details, but I've seen cases where the man was eager to be with an Armenian woman, but ended up with a non-Armenian because of those handicaps, I will mention only two: Once the magic of the encounter faded away, the men complained that the women were either unwilling or "unable" to charm, as if something was holding them back, or as if they were not even aware that it's part of the game. No, the women did not want to break up and were apparently satisfied with the relationship.
The second handicap is the fact that they are not allowed to freely communicate with the men.

I am glad you spelled out the issues.I have had the first problem with my wife and i know exactly what you mean.I think that what men and women expect their long term relationship to be like differs based on the gender.If a man is "charmed" by a women he expects that same level of "charm" to continue. The woman does not have the same expectation or need in this field as the man does plus men also stop being as romantic after a while and this can effect the womens willingness to charm.In long term relationships or marriages women need to actually work on charming their partner, and i say work because it really is work for the women since she does not feel the same need and is doing it for her partner.Many times women will have sex not because they feel like it but because their partner does and they want to keep him happy.You can consider this right or wrong it is up to you but the fact is men need sex more often then women, it is in our biology.It also helps to try new things with your partner to liven things up sometimes.it is perfectly normal for a relationship to lose its luster after the initial fire subsides as a matter of fact it is in our nature as humans as i discussed in earlier posts.The keys to making it last is having things in common, willing to please your partner even sometimes when your not in the mood and devotion to eachother during good times and in bad. I hope this helps and i am happy you asked. As for your other question about communication, i think maybe being less reserved about what you want to say may help. If something is bothering you just tell him and then you can gage from his reaction how he feels about it.Communication is usefull but there is also such a thing as too much of it and again you can tell when that level is reached by observing his reaction.If you don't feel comfortable speaking to him then maybe he is not the one for you.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Yes, I did. No, her comment does not sound like a "whole lot of disrespect". Do you make even the slightest effort to understand and communicate or your sole purpose is to be part of a conversation and kill time? Is this a chatroom for you?

I call them like I see them... I don't waste time beating around the bush or using "politically correct" language.

So let me be clear so there is no confusion.... what is it that you're trying to get at? You want to be free to do what ever you want like the french/english women you associate with? Who is stopping you? Well, here is a little hint..... they already have power over you and that's exactly what they want you to do. Read up on assimilation and understand it's psychological effects. Enough with this "old minded" and "handicapped upbringing" crap.

[meline]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I got a whole school worth of examples for you. I graduated from AGBU and most of the school was females. Most but not all were patheticly self absorbed and always tried to outcompete each other by wearing the more expencive and flashy cloth. It got so bad that these girls were wearing freakin designer nightgowns to class. The school was forced to institute a strict dress code which ruined it for all the guys cause now we had to wear uncomfortable uniforms because of some self absorbed wenches.These girls did not have jobs they could not have bought these clothes with their own money so they went to dady or momy and asked for it and the stupid parents let their kids wear thousend dollar dresses to school.We had a 16 yearold girl get married and drop out of school not because she fell in love with a boyfriend but because some old ass rich xxxler wanted to merry her and she wanted the easy life so xxxx school and her parents were so happy about the whole thing. Then we had a couple 17 year olds get married the same way. Couple 18 yearolds after that all the same stupid story. These women were very much hurt by their upbringing, it was their parents who said it was ok and good to get married at 16 to some bald rich dude. It was the parents that bought those expencive dresses and let them wear it to school. Needless to say non of these girls got anything out of school because their parents never stressed education for their girls instead they fed the stupid sleazfest of who can make her mom or dad buy her the more expencive gown so she can wear it to school and show it off. These parents considered this bullxxxx "traditional upbringing" and their daughters were very much hurt by it because they grew up to be ignorent, self absorbed women whose husbands eventually left them.

What you are talking about is not the upbringing, but the environment. There is a world of difference between the two of them. Needless to say, this type of behaviour exists in many other communities. Should we blame it on a specific type of upbringing or rather on the soap opera style of environment they grow up in?

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

What you are talking about is not the upbringing, but the environment. There is a world of difference between the two of them. Needless to say, this type of behaviour exists in many other communities. Should we blame it on a specific type of upbringing or rather on the soap opera style of environment they grow up in?

I strongly disagree. My sister grew up in the same environment and went to the exact same school but she has a PHD in physical chemistry and a job in Berkley.I agree this behaviour exists in other communities also as a matter of fact i said it myself in my post, maybe you didn't read the whole thing?This is definetly the result of upbringing, the girls i talked about lived in a environment where they could have gone either way, they could have used the education they were being provided with like me and my sister did and actually made something of themselves but they chose to be brainless skanks instead.This choice has everything to do with the values their parents instilled in them.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

What you are talking about is not the upbringing, but the environment. There is a world of difference between the two of them. Needless to say, this type of behaviour exists in many other communities. Should we blame it on a specific type of upbringing or rather on the soap opera style of environment they grow up in?

Thank you Meline... finally someone who understands where the finger should be pointed.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I strongly disagree. My sister grew up in the same environment and went to the exact same school but she has a PHD in physical chemistry and a job in Berkley.I agree this behaviour exists in other communities also as a matter of fact i said it myself in my post, maybe you didn't read the whole thing?This is definetly the result of upbringing, the girls i talked about lived in a environment where they could have gone either way, they could have used the education they were being provided with like me and my sister did and actually made something of themselves but they chose to be brainless skanks instead.This choice has everything to do with the values their parents instilled in them.

That just means your sister had stronger character and was able to overcome the negative aspects of her surrounding environment. We are discussing the traditional Armenian upbringing (kids stay home until they are independent and mature enough to make it on their own and/or get married)

[meline]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I strongly disagree. My sister grew up in the same environment and went to the exact same school but she has a PHD in physical chemistry and a job in Berkley.I agree this behaviour exists in other communities also as a matter of fact i said it myself in my post, maybe you didn't read the whole thing?This is definetly the result of upbringing, the girls i talked about lived in a environment where they could have gone either way, they could have used the education they were being provided with like me and my sister did and actually made something of themselves but they chose to be brainless skanks instead.This choice has everything to do with the values their parents instilled in them.

First of all, really happy for your sister. Bravo!
Second, don't you think that she managed to go that far, exactly because of those things like perseverence, hard work and determination, that usually form part of that traditional upbringing we Armenian girls undergo?!