Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I personally strongly disagree with you and do not believe that all Armenian women are handicapped or that our girls are victims of oppressive values and etc.

I don't think that you're strongly disagreeing with me because I did not say it. This question has been already answered many times. Also, please see my reply to Lucin below.

Kattie, I am also really intrested as to know the origin of your name, as Kattie is truly not an Armenian name nor an Armenian choice. I would greatly appreciate if you were to share that with me.

You've never heard of Katarine/Gadarine?

I also was trying to make a point that this topic is not a uniquely Armenian trait rather a human trait.

Again, this was already answered. Again, see my reply to Lucin below.
I hope that you'll agree that it's not productive to repeatedly answer the same question. Thanks.

Kattie, you did not seem to make any exceptions in your intital post (?)

I did not say all Armenian women neither. The first time that the question of all Armenian women was raised, I was surprised. The second time, I was puzzled. After a certain time, I started being concerned. Do we feel the need to clarify that 2 is a larger number than 1? I don't remember reading a single ethnological or sociological publication where it is said that all members of a given population have a certain characteristic. Maybe revisiting basic concepts will help.

Let's suppose that a certain characteristic/variable C of a population is being studied/discussed. To oversimplify, let's suppose that the characteristic is "actions/customs that repress some of a girl's natural inclinations", another characteristic/variable may be "expressions of the natural inclination to charm".
The characteristic/variable C that is being studied/discussed may have different values or levels that varies among the members of a population P. The technical word is domain. Also, when studying a population measures like averages, medians, deviations of a variable are of interest. In other words different women may be subjected to a different the degree of repression, and averages in one population may be lower/higher than averages in a different one.
When it is said that members of a population P has the characteristic/attribute C, it is meant that the average level of C is higher than a certain reference. At no time it is meant that all members have the characteristic C at the highest degree/level. Absolutism belongs to the past. As I've said before, reality is made of shades of gray and black and white are pure concepts.
Also, when a population P1 is said to be more C1 than another population P2, what is meant is that it is likely that a randomly selected member of P1 will have a higher level of C1 than a randomly selected element of P2. At no times, it means that all members of P1 have a higher level of C1 than all members of P2.
I consider the above as basic, so I don't see necessary to remind.

What is called charm and the lack of it makes also a couple fall into banalities and platitudes once the initial lust, the fire and the passion of the very beginning fades away, I believe this is also what makes couples not notice often times each other's presence after a while. I'm not married but this is just what I have observed in many couples.

Yes.

Natural inclination? Do you think 'charming' or having the 'charm' within is inherent to every single woman's nature? Do all of us possess the 'same' level of charm? And that some are able to express it while others not?

"Every single" is equivalent to "all" and I don't believe in absolutism. As I've said above, the same characteristic usually exists with varying degrees among members of a given population, and the same is true of the natural inclination to charm. Regardless of the initial level of the inclination, my focus is how that inclination is repressed and what are the consequences.

Nice... I'm glad that you did not include physical 'attractiveness' in it.

Personally, I believe that physical beauty fades away quickly unless the person is charmful, and charms can make a person with an "average" physique attractive. However, physical beauty can enhance a woman's charms i.e. beautiful smile on a pretty face, the expression of passion of beautiful eyes, gracefully uncovered beautiful shoulders, the graceful movements of beautiful hands etc. The "physical support" makes a difference.

I would also like to add that a woman who is comfortable in her skin, who has some degree of self-acceptance and sometimes tends to lack inhibition can emanate that 'charm' from herself...

Yes. That is the main point of this thread: inhibitions and their consequences. It's interesting that some of the most sensual women that I've known were tomboys and had something that can't be tamed that added to their charm

So would you deem anything that is done willingly, with no sense of compliance as 'charming'?

Not necessarily. Not everything we do willingly is charming.

I thought Haykakan was laying it on a little too authoritative and wrong about the Freudian angle.I thought that Kanada was trying to probe the issue more, trying to understand the topic you were trying to display.

But how Haykakan being "a little too authoritative and wrong about the Freudian angle" makes KanadaHye insightful? What insight? For me an insight results from knowledge, he doesn't even have an understanding.
Also, I wouldn't say that he's not probing, he's simply shooting in the dark and pulling strings.

An Armenian women who doesn't seem to come back and continue the discussion. So many people, not just me, gave really serious questions and neither you or the Armenian women you mentioned said anything.

The Armenian woman ignores and will continue to ignore questions that were already addressed and/or questions that she considers of little value. Like everybody else, the Armenian woman has priorities.
Most of all, the Armenian woman is afraid that you'll keep your replies "too short" to say "too much".

Our "traditional" grandparents didn't have these "sexuality" issues.

Our grandparents were not exposed to other cultures, and at the time, repressing a woman was acceptable. Also, they were performing their duty to build a family and/or were taking care of their biological urges, most men are not difficult to say the least when it comes to satisfy their biological urge.

You're right, we should keep our girls dumb so they can be oblivious to the dangers of the world and just worry about being charming.

If being dumb made a person charmful, then why aren't you charming?

Come again? I'm sure you'd be more charming if you grew up in the tropics as opposed to post WWII germany.

It was about whether sexual education makes a women charmful. German women are sexually more open even when compared to other Europeans but are far from being more charmful.
What do you know about german women? Do you know when to stop and limit yourself to what you know?

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

But how Haykakan being "a little too authoritative and wrong about the Freudian angle" makes KanadaHye insightful? What insight? For me an insight results from knowledge, he doesn't even have an understanding.
Also, I wouldn't say that he's not probing, he's simply shooting in the dark and pulling strings.

I may have misjudged Haykakan for his "go get educated" response to Kanada which seemed harsh, because they may have had previous miscommunication in other threads, I'm not certain; but, the sexual angle I thought was a different issue than this.

Where I thought Kanada had an insight on this issue, was the effects of assimilation, which cannot be dismissed.Unfortunately he didn't follow up on his initial idea, whether that was just shooting in the dark or not I don't know, but rereading his cumulative posts on this thread, I have to admit that's a strong possibility at this point.

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

If being dumb made a person charmful, then why aren't you charming?

Foul!
That was below the belt!~

[Eddo211]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

................or were taking care of their biological urges, most men are not difficult to say the least when it comes to satisfy their biological urge.

Wait a minute are you implying………………This reminds me of that crazy old man that used to tell me. “Those were the days my boy when men were men and the sheep were scared” hahahaha

[hrai]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Hrair, I do not travel anymore. If you are still in Trier and come
by Metz I shall be glad to receive you too. I have much to say in
this interesting forum,but I do not speak English as fluently as all of you here. So there are many misunderstanding.
L Kiffer

Merci madame.

[hrai]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

As Anonymouse was pointing out, not only have some women lost the ability to charm men, but they have also lost the ability to be charming in general, handicapping their ability to be a good mother.

A true point, but temper it with the fact that some men in no way deserve to be charmed.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Isn't it funny when an Armenian woman is being told how Armenian women are by someone who has "never met many Armenians in real life"?


Charms and docility do not always go together, there are non-docile females who are masculine and lack charms, and there are outspoken, independent minded females with plenty of charms.


I said "not all cultures". I don't consider Arabs as a reference when it come to charms and open mindedness, but I can appreciate the refinements and role of geishas in traditional Japanese culture.


First of all, all is relative. Second of all, I said "not all cultures". Most of all, does domestic violence in other cultures justify the situation?




Don't we all love a modest Armo paternalizing us and showing us the right direction? Thank you for "keeping in short".


So you think that women with charms have no boundaries? You have a real distorted and sad perception of certain aspects of life.


First of all, charming has nothing to do with "getting down with every guy around the block". Second of all, you're understanding of what I've meant is not even close enough.


Many go to Armenia to find a bride with the hope of finding a more obedient woman, not for their charms.


A woman can be attractive, have a good taste, be well behaved yet lack charms. I'll tell more in my reply to Lucin.



Some are being open minded, but it is true that some have reacted as if I was vilifying Armenian women, when my intent is to remind that Armenian women are being the victims


I agree. I would simply add that many Armenians have stopped the clock in 1915 as if Armenian values and traditions wouldn't have changed and evolved if the genocide did not happen. Did we lose the right to be part of history because of the genocide?


I have read read several articles that cover the issue.


That's sad and I know that it may happen.

Lass, if ye read what I said, I was merely saying that you find this amongst non Armenians and drew a parrellel, I did not mean to insult you and there was no need to get defensive, although I am flattered that you read my previous posts to see how many Armenians I do know, gracias for that btw

My point is is that you will find this all over, women have been treated like crap worldwide, it isn't just amongst Armenians, you find it in Mexico, Asia, Africa, even the "heart of Moral decency" Europe, I agree it is a terrible issue and people seriously need to give more rights towards women, men to a large part are to blame, this is true of any society that has a lot of patriarchy which is found in most modern day societies

I guess I just couldn't see the reason behind the rudeness, I did not mean to offend you if you think that was my intention

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Our grandparents were not exposed to other cultures, and at the time, repressing a woman was acceptable. Also, they were performing their duty to build a family and/or were taking care of their biological urges, most men are not difficult to say the least when it comes to satisfy their biological urge.


If being dumb made a person charmful, then why aren't you charming?


It was about whether sexual education makes a women charmful. German women are sexually more open even when compared to other Europeans but are far from being more charmful.
What do you know about german women? Do you know when to stop and limit yourself to what you know?

Apparently the Turks forgot to cleanse this one out of our gene pool.... I'm done with this. Feminism at its best. Charming isn't it?

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Personally, I believe that physical beauty fades away quickly unless the person is charmful, and charms can make a person with an "average" physique attractive.

So what does a girl have to do to become "charmful"? What do parents have to do to make their kids more charming?

Our grandparents were not exposed to other cultures, and at the time, repressing a woman was acceptable.

What were women supposed to be able to do, Kattie? How were our men being repressive?

If being dumb made a person charmful, then why aren't you charming?

I could ask you the same thing ......

Your not answering or reading anything ... just stating that we don't know much, Katarine. How's that for uncharming?

A true point, but temper it with the fact that some men in no way deserve to be charmed.

I agree. Many, many guys here in Yerevan don't even have the right to call themselves Armenians and simply misuse our girls. I think this has a very bad effect on the charm of Armenian women. That's why I said let's talk about that.

AND AGAIN, no one mentioned a single tradition that was bad for our girls. So I take it we're done throwing all the blame on our traditional upbringing lol!

men to a large part are to blame, this is true of any society that has a lot of patriarchy which is found in most modern day societies

EXACTLY! Let's be talking about that...

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Haykakan isn't completely wrong, sometimes people don't really understand why their parents did what they did until they have children of their own. But that doesn't mean that they have to be your own children

In some respects, yes, they have to be your children but all that is very irrelevant to what we’re talking about in this thread!

Sometimes just having cousins, nieces or nephews around the house will change your own outlook on life in general. I think this is something that is lacking in our generation where the traditional family has been focused on the idea of a couple and not an entire family. So I agree with Kattie's assessment but while she is trying to say that the new world way is the correct way, I'm claiming that the traditional Armenian way is the correct way.

NO ONE, so far, has explained WHY or HOW our Armenian traditions are spoiling our new generation and if no one can then I’d appreciate it if we all just stop dissing them in any way. What we’re talking about right now I believe is a problem that this entire world faces, not just our people!

As far as being born with talent, somethings just come natural... there are things that just can't be explained. Like this 23 month old playing billiards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xm4EjErEKE

now THAT’S something!

And if you want to talk about "being silenced" here is a newsflash, it's not only the Armenian women who were silenced growing up. Children in general weren't allowed to have a say in matters or "do as they please" or "talk back to their elders". These were all, in my mind excellent parenting skills. Who are you at such a young age to claim you have a voice over the only people that truly love you in this world?

I don’t think anyone can disagree with this. In the US, little kids can call up 911 and send their parents to jail if they ever touch or upset them … even if they (the kids) did something wrong. That is why you can see fifteen year old hoes sitting beside you in class! I’ve never been to a more materialistic nation then the US. I’d rather live in the slums of India then in any part of America, brother! That nation’s finished and the new generation is more spoiled then ever before. I’m afraid to think what life’s going to be like in 30 years! All this is happening because everyone wants to be “free” and “independent”. There is no such thing, people. Freedom comes from knowledge and proper behavior. We’re here to learn, aren’t we? And the only reason people call our traditions “old” and our people “old minded” is because they don’t have any standards. It’s not us that need to change…