Our Identity

[Kiffer]

Re: Our Identity

In France too, many Armenians don't even know armenian, because we have very few armenian schools, the old people know armenian but the second or third generation have lost the few they had learnt when they were children. Now many don't know English 'the "universal language. They just speak French .

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Our Identity

it's a letter and we learn about it in school's around the world. Don't like it? There's the complaint box !

My opinion is, any "letter" that is just a combination of two existing letters, is not truly a letter by definition. Its like having "th" as an English letter… The hypothetical letter "th" can just be replaced by "t" and "h", the same way "եւ" can be replaced by "ե" and "ւ", with no affect whatsoever in terms of pronunciation or meaning. So "եւ" is completely useless as a letter. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And its not taught in most of the diasporan schools, I don't know where you heard that. Almost all of the Armenian schools in the diaspora teach western Armenian. I only know of one school that teaches eastern Armenian alongside western, and they might be following the Mesrobian rules, which means that "եւ" is not taught as a letter. But then again I can only speak for southern California.

So what are you suggesting, we should just give up on the Diaspora? I'm here yelling that we need to bring Armenians together and make them more aware and your saying we should give up on more then 70% of the Armenian populace. Is that really the right attitude ?

It's not as dead as you think my friend. Many Armenians are going out of Armenia then the Diaspora and for that reason, we have to remind them always where they are from in any way we can. If the Diaspora is a dead end then so is Armenia because we can't get too far without the Diaspora. We have to balance everything out and as fast as possible. Armenia is our HQ but it can't survive without Armenians and the majority of Armenians are outside. That's the problem. 3 million Armenians (MAX) live in Armenia. over 8 million live outside. So ignoring the Diaspora means ignoring our people (plus it slows down our advancement) and that's the worst mistake we can make. We have to give them a lot of attention and at the same time, work things out here so they'll wanna come back. Your also forgetting how much the Diasporans have helped our nation. Now we suddenly decide to ignore them?

I'm not saying Armenia should ignore the diaspora. In fact, in a lot of ways, I want the diaspora to have a greater voice in the affairs of the ROA (although not too loud of a voice either). This is especially true when it comes to this "roadmap" nonsense. Its cases like this that the diaspora provides a sober voice to the Armenian leadership, or at least reminds them of what the bigger picture is.

What I mean by the diaspora being a dead-end is that instead of devoting resources to create cultural centers or churches in the diaspora, or to throw barahenteses, those resources should go to building cultural centers in Armenia with the aim of strengthening the nationalist sentiment and cultural development amongst citizens of the Republic of Armenia. All those cultural centers in the diaspora, as sad as this is to say, will be empty in a couple of generations. We have more of a chance of survival if we strengthen the foundations of the only space on earth which can permanently house the Armenian civilization--- the Republic of Armenia.

Without a firm nationalist and cultural foundation in our own homeland, and without continued industrial growth, its meaningless how advanced the diaspora is. The diaspora's only function should be to strengthen the homeland, not to strengthen its own defenses against assimilation--- something that is inevitable.

They do that, I never said they don't. But I don't see that as unusual. Every country has this and I'm sure they always will. I'm Ok with Armenians talking a bit of latin. I'm not OK with the Russian though because Armenians not only use it inappropriately, they confuse the words they use, thinking they are Armenian words.

I think they also confuse many of those Latin terms for Armenian ones. Even if they can distinguish between them, and whether it is Russian or Latin being mixed into the language, it is a symptom of a much bigger problem--- a serious lack of understanding of their own mother tongue. Its natural that if you get used to using foreign words in place of Armenian words, that the knowledge of those Armenian words diminishes with each passing generation.

Anways, I'm more worried about the Russian as usual because it won't fade away as fast as you think. It has become a part of almost every Yerevantsi's vocabulary. I even see kids 5-7 years old walking around like a gangsta, spitting Russian words around, so seriously, don't try to leave the impression that English is much more dangerous. I told you already, most Armenians laugh when someone speaks English so it's not realistic to think many Armenians will even want to speak English.

I will have to take your word for it, considering you live there. I’m not disregarding the Russian influence (its obvious to anyone who has set foot in Armenia), but I'm still weary of the Latin influence nonetheless, which poses a unique threat because we are thousands of miles away from any latin-based countries, contrary to Russia which is just a few miles away, and which has ruled Armenia for a couple of centuries.

I think your mistaken here. They don't think these words are part of the Armenian language. It's just that people have used them so much that it's become something normal but that's changing slowly.

I don't know… ask some of these people what the Armenian equivalents to those words are, and they will probably stare at you with a blank face.

Nowadays, newspapers are being fined when they make these kind of mistakes.

I honestly hope this is true for all major newspapers. It is a step in the right direction.

By the way, do you know which body imposes the fines on the newspapers that break these rules?

What you described is something you can see in almost any country. Look at India. You know how many English words they use every day? Even if you didn't know hindi, you'd still be able to understand them, lol.

This is natural considering they were under direct English rule for a few centuries. Ditto for Armenians and the Russians.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

My opinion is, any "letter" that is just a combination of two existing letters, is not truly a letter by definition. Its like having "th" as an English letter… The hypothetical letter "th" can just be replaced by "t" and "h", the same way "եւ" can be replaced by "ե" and "ւ", with no affect whatsoever in terms of pronunciation or meaning. So "եւ" is completely useless as a letter. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Your wrong ! In certain respects, your right. Yev is just two letters stuck together but there is a reason we have that letter. There is a reason our leaders aren't changing that. Like I said, you need to look deeper into Armenian grammer to understand why this letter is being used till now. And it isn't the equivalent of t and h being slapped together. I doubt our grandfathers just woke up one day and decided to create a useless letter, lol.

And its not taught in most of the diasporan schools, I don't know where you heard that.

Your right, I haven't heard of that ... I've seen that.

Almost all of the Armenian schools in the diaspora teach western Armenian. I only know of one school that teaches eastern Armenian alongside western, and they might be following the Mesrobian rules, which means that "եւ" is not taught as a letter. But then again I can only speak for southern California.

And I can speak for India, Armenia and a few other places out there ! If your learning western Armenian then I doubt you'll learn the 39th letter of our alphabet but eastern Armenian schools do teach them. I have the books to prove it, lol.

I'm not saying Armenia should ignore the diaspora. In fact, in a lot of ways, I want the diaspora to have a greater voice in the affairs of the ROA (although not too loud of a voice either). This is especially true when it comes to this "roadmap" nonsense. Its cases like this that the diaspora provides a sober voice to the Armenian leadership, or at least reminds them of what the bigger picture is.

What I mean by the diaspora being a dead-end is that instead of devoting resources to create cultural centers or churches in the diaspora, or to throw barahenteses, those resources should go to building cultural centers in Armenia with the aim of strengthening the nationalist sentiment and cultural development amongst citizens of the Republic of Armenia. All those cultural centers in the diaspora, as sad as this is to say, will be empty in a couple of generations. We have more of a chance of survival if we strengthen the foundations of the only space on earth which can permanently house the Armenian civilization--- the Republic of Armenia.

Without a firm nationalist and cultural foundation in our own homeland, and without continued industrial growth, its meaningless how advanced the diaspora is. The diaspora's only function should be to strengthen the homeland, not to strengthen its own defenses against assimilation--- something that is inevitable.

Hm, I'm starting to see what you mean. But I think this is more complicated then we think. You know why? Because if we don't somehow strenghten the Diaspora ... we will never be strenghtened. So bottom line is, we need a golden balance. We should have say 5 million Armenians here in Armenia ... and another five out there in the Diaspora ... not 7-8 million out there and just 2.5 - 3 million here. With most of the Armenians out there, we have no choice but to somehow educate them and/or keep them informed about they're own country and who they are. To do that, you have to spend money and really make an effort and I don't see that as a fruitless effort. If that's fruitless then you can already consider the fact that you've lost more then 50% of the Armenian populace. I'm afraid I don't give up that easily though and can't live with the fact that we're forgetting our Armenians out there. You say we shouldn't ignore them but our actions say more then our posts. We are doing just that. By only strenghtening Armenia which we CAN'T DO without the Diaspora (forget about that happening) we will lose LOT's and LOT'S of Armenians. Your right, we don't need to build churches. We need to build schools, we need to get Armenians more involved, etc. We have tons of churches and very few Armeninans who actually visit them. So what's the point of building them? It's like building a school but having no students learn in them.

I think they also confuse many of those Latin terms for Armenian ones. Even if they can distinguish between them, and whether it is Russian or Latin being mixed into the language, it is a symptom of a much bigger problem--- a serious lack of understanding of their own mother tongue. Its natural that if you get used to using foreign words in place of Armenian words, that the knowledge of those Armenian words diminishes with each passing generation.

Exactly what I've been saying. So it would be ok if we spoke a few Latin and Russian words but only if we knew our language properly. When you don't, you start getting confused. For that reason, let's start from our schools and stop them from advertising Russian here and there willingly or unwillingly.

I will have to take your word for it, considering you live there. I’m not disregarding the Russian influence (its obvious to anyone who has set foot in Armenia), but I'm still weary of the Latin influence nonetheless, which poses a unique threat because we are thousands of miles away from any latin-based countries, contrary to Russia which is just a few miles away, and which has ruled Armenia for a couple of centuries.

Thousands of miles away ? Are you kidding me? Yekhpayr, we live in the age of the internet, satelite tv, and computers. No one is a thousand miles away any longer. This isn't the 1700's when people had to travel by ships. You can travel with a mouse click nowadays! Most Armenians have learned those English words by surfing the net, chatting, entering social networks, etc. believe it or not. But still, English isn't used regularly like Russian.

Here's an example: A Museum Guide (a relative of ours) that was showing us around talked in Armenian and when we asked her to start talking in English because she knew the language pretty well ... she started laughing from time to time. It was almost embarrassing for her, lol. Its not just her, there are thousands that laugh when you or they speak English. Look at it this way. I never talk English in front of my Armenian friends. And I speak clear and proper English. It's not like I talk funny or something. It's simply funny for many Armenians and is considered by many others as showing off.

Our country isn't as advanced as you think in this field. Armenians aren't as fond of English as you think.

I don't know… ask some of these people what the Armenian equivalents to those words are, and they will probably stare at you with a blank face.

There are many such people but most know that they aren't talking Armenian. Our people aren't that backwards. Actually, it's not very hard to tell that Latin and Russian words aren't Armenian. Many know that the words that come out of their mouth aren't Armenian but neither do they know the Armenian equivalents of those words. We need to change that.

I honestly hope this is true for all major newspapers. It is a step in the right direction.

Absolutely.

By the way, do you know which body imposes the fines on the newspapers that break these rules?

We have linguists naturally here in Armenia that make sure newspapers are printed in proper Armenian. I don't know the exact name of the body though. The fines start from 10,000 Drams though if I'm not mistaken. It depends on the mistakes actually. All the same, it's getting more and more strict.

This is natural considering they were under direct English rule for a few centuries. Ditto for Armenians and the Russians.

Yeah but sometimes I feel the Indians got it worse...

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Our Identity

Saco is right in Hayastan they teach եւ as a letter and I got proof of that.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

So I guess we'll just have to live with that. To tell you the truth, I love using the letter "yev". When you start using it, you'll see how handy it is Arm. and why it's considered a letter. It's not just two letters slapped together.

[retro]

Re: Our Identity

As long as Armenia remains in its current state, it will just be a continuous breeding ground for the diaspora of the future. It needs to be more than a tourist attraction. The reason why it thrived under communism was due to industry. But no worries, the majority of the middle class in the world isn't too far behind in joining the ranks of the impoverished.


"The ideal of a single civilization for everyone implicit in the cult of progress and technique, impoverishes and mutilates us. Every view of the world that becomes extinct, every culture that disappears, diminishes a possibility of life."

Culture, growth, wealth and freedom go hand in hand. I think we have an idea of what we need Armenia to be... the question is how do the people achieve those goals with so many barriers aka. government.

I think that the Armenian community really needs to lobby the budget European carriers, such to open up direct flights to Armenia.

No small part of the problem that Armenia is currently to expensive to fly to from Western Europe and that no budget European carriers currently fly there.

Armenia's alliance with Russia is not the problem it disconnection from Europe is. As Armenia obviously need to create a climate that facilitates foreign investment and trade.

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

Your wrong ! In certain respects, your right. Yev is just two letters stuck together but there is a reason we have that letter. There is a reason our leaders aren't changing that. Like I said, you need to look deeper into Armenian grammer to understand why this letter is being used till now. And it isn't the equivalent of t and h being slapped together. I doubt our grandfathers just woke up one day and decided to create a useless letter, lol.

Why do you stubbornly insist on something that you don't know much? We all know what you are being taught in Armenia but it does not necessarily have to correspond to the truth. It's not an eastern, western thing. It's about one language; the Armenian language which should have one unique and correct orthography. It was after the distortion of the Armenian alphabet by the soviet authorities that 'եւ' appeared as a separate letter in the Armenian alphabet, among some other nonsensical changes such as the transformation of the usages of certain letters like: յ /ե (յետոյ/ հետո), օ/ո(Կարօ/ Կարո), է /ե(ամէն/ ամեն), ւ /վ(արծիւ/ արծիվ).

Let's hope someday, it will switch back to its original, accurate version.

And I can speak for India, Armenia and a few other places out there ! If your learning western Armenian then I doubt you'll learn the 39th letter of our alphabet but eastern Armenian schools do teach them. I have the books to prove it, lol.

All Eastern Armenian schools do not teach that I have the books to prove it. Once you comprehend that the Mesropian alphabet has been simplified and distorted in Armenia within the last century by the Soviets then you'll realize what is being taught in schools in Diaspora (western or eastern) is true to its origin; the Mesropian orthography. Just read Hrachia Ajarain, our greatest linguist/ grammarian on the matter who happens to be a Hayastantsi...

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

Chalk one up for Lucin here...

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

So, you decided to reply to me for once, huh?

Why do you stubbornly insist on something that you don't know much?

And what makes you think Mrs. Lucin that I don't know much? Or has your arrogance and feminine ways simply reached it's zenith?

We all know what you are being taught in Armenia but it does not necessarily have to correspond to the truth. It's not an eastern, western thing. It's about one language; the Armenian language which should have one unique and correct orthography. It was after the distortion of the Armenian alphabet by the soviet authorities that 'եւ' appeared as a separate letter in the Armenian alphabet, among some other nonsensical changes such as the transformation of the usages of certain letters like: յ /ե (յետոյ/ հետո), օ/ո(Կարօ/ Կարո), է /ե(ամէն/ ամեն), ւ /վ(արծիւ/ արծիվ).

Modern Armenian isn't something "wrong". It's not a mistake. If we think in this manner then we aren't Christians! Why? Because our forefathers had their culture and religions and lived happily for over 3-4000 years. Then suddenly everything changed. Now was that a mistake?

Modern Armenian is different but it's not necessarily wrong. In many respects, it's more clear, concise and understandable then the Armenian we spoke hundreds of years ago. I saw an Armenian on TV, a Genocide survivor actually. If you heard his Armenian, you wouldn't be able to even guess he was Armenian. According to him, he was the real Armenian and kept speaking ancient Armenian. I think that's good but a bit backwards if you don't mind me saying so. Time moves on and changes take place and not all of them are bad. I find the Armenian we speak today to be more beautiful and understandable, especially for people from other countries, in many ways then ancient Armenian. I'm telling you, the host of the show was having a hard time understanding him, lol, and that Armenian wasn't exactly very beautiful (subtitles were used to allow Armenians to understand what the man was saying). That doesn't mean I hate the Armenian language that we've used in the past. I love it but don't think we should live by the past. And believe it or not, I doubt anyone can talk the same Armenian that Mesrop Mashtots spoke. Throughout the centuries, our language went through many changes and was refined. So you can't even know what Armenian was like in the beginning completely.

Our grandfathers weren't stupid. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to create the Modern Armenian language.

Let's hope someday, it will switch back to its original, accurate version.

I doubt it will. And like I said, yev isn't just a couple of letters slapped together. As you can see, YEV isn't used in every sentence. If it was just a handy letter, people would use it all the damn time. But it's not. It's used only in special cases. You have to know grammer to understand that. So I think YOU should stop talking about what you don't much about, Lucin, instead of trying to find something wrong in all my posts and replying only when you THINK I've made a mistake.

All Eastern Armenian schools do not teach that I have the books to prove it.

I didn't say all of them do!

Once you comprehend that the Mesropian alphabet has been simplified and distorted in Armenia within the last century by the Soviets then you'll realize what is being taught in schools in Diaspora (western or eastern) is true to its origin; the Mesropian orthography. Just read Hrachia Ajarain, our greatest linguist/ grammarian on the matter who happens to be a Hayastantsi...

I just might, actually. I'm not saying the Soviet era didn't change a lot of things but not all those changes were bad. And neither you nor anyone else here can prove me wrong. Why? Because if YEV was a mistake, it wouldn't exist today. Everyday, our grammarians deal with these issues, creating new words, etc. and they haven't removed YEV from our list of letters so why should I? To be FRANK, I see yev as a very useful letter and I use it from time to time and see the difference between YEV and the yev you guys are talking about. And until this letter is removed by our grammarians, I'm going to keep using it.

Bottom line is actually, you know what, your right. Let's stick to Ancient Armenian. The problem is, your forgetting that YEV, O and F were added into our list of letters in the last century so we'll have to ditch them! So everyone, from now on, we have 36 letters because Mesrop Mashtots didn't come up with the last three letters...

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

So, you decided to reply to me for once, huh?

To be honest, you make way too long posts full of the same misunderstandings often times that I do not have the time to go through all of them…

And what makes you think Mrs. Lucin that I don't know much? Or has your arrogance and feminine ways simply reached it's zenith?

Talking about arrogance, you come to mind real quick… you often times tend to turn the conversation into a monologue without making the slightest effort to understand better your interlocutor, like the post you just made…

Modern Armenian isn't something "wrong". It's not a mistake. If we think in this manner then we aren't Christians! Why? Because our forefathers had their culture and religions and lived happily for over 3-4000 years. Then suddenly everything changed. Now was that a mistake?

Modern Armenian is different but it's not necessarily wrong. In many respects, it's more clear, concise and understandable then the Armenian we spoke hundreds of years ago. I saw an Armenian on TV, a Genocide survivor actually. If you heard his Armenian, you wouldn't be able to even guess he was Armenian. According to him, he was the real Armenian and kept speaking ancient Armenian. I think that's good but a bit backwards if you don't mind me saying so. Time moves on and changes take place and not all of them are bad. I find the Armenian we speak today to be more beautiful and understandable, especially for people from other countries, in many ways then ancient Armenian. I'm telling you, the host of the show was having a hard time understanding him, lol, and that Armenian wasn't exactly very beautiful (subtitles were used to allow Armenians to understand what the man was saying). That doesn't mean I hate the Armenian language that we've used in the past. I love it but don't think we should live by the past. And believe it or not, I doubt anyone can talk the same Armenian that Mesrop Mashtots spoke. Throughout the centuries, our language went through many changes and was refined. So you can't even know what Armenian was like in the beginning completely.

Our grandfathers weren't stupid. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to create the Modern Armenian language.



I doubt it will. And like I said, yev isn't just a couple of letters slapped together. As you can see, YEV isn't used in every sentence. If it was just a handy letter, people would use it all the damn time. But it's not. It's used only in special cases. You have to know grammer to understand that. So I think YOU should stop talking about what you don't much about, Lucin, instead of trying to find something wrong in all my posts and replying only when you THINK I've made a mistake.



I didn't say all of them do!



I just might, actually. I'm not saying the Soviet era didn't change a lot of things but not all those changes were bad. And neither you nor anyone else here can prove me wrong. Why? Because if YEV was a mistake, it wouldn't exist today. Everyday, our grammarians deal with these issues, creating new words, etc. and they haven't removed YEV from our list of letters so why should I? To be FRANK, I see yev as a very useful letter and I use it from time to time and see the difference between YEV and the yev you guys are talking about. And until this letter is removed by our grammarians, I'm going to keep using it.

Bottom line is actually, you know what, your right. Let's stick to Ancient Armenian. The problem is, your forgetting that YEV, O and F were added into our list of letters in the last century so we'll have to ditch them! So everyone, from now on, we have 36 letters because Mesrop Mashtots didn't come up with the last three letters...

First of all, we are neither talking about Modern Armenian nor the Ancient classic Armenian (known as grapar which is being used mainly in our sharakans) second of all, by saying Mesropian, we're talking about the alphabet invented by Mesrop Mashtots and its orthography and not how Mashtots spoke Armenian at his time. Third of all, our grand fathers did not exactly opt for such a 'change' but rather it was imposed on them so it isn't exactly a 'natural evolution' our language went through, it is more or less like how you describe; they just woke up one day and decided to distort... fourth; unlike people like you our grammarians in Armenia are well aware of such a lacuna in our alphabetic spelling system. I already suggested you read the late Hrachia Ajarian's articles and works on this issue who is a prominent contemporary Hayastantsi linguist/ grammarian.