How does everyone feel about Israel?

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

again supplying weapons is a business.

[So that makes it okay for Israel to provide weapons to Azerbaijan at a time of war?]

so israelis are elected officials who they know will give weapons to azerbaijan? That's over the top there.

[Israeli politicians are elected not only by "azeri-j3ws," but by every Israeli of voting age. If you and i know that israel sells weapons to Azerbaijan, you can safely conclude the Israeli public does also.]

looks are subjective - you can say that he looks like a turkish-j3w - but it's really flawed to make the conclusion that he is a j3w based off of looks, you have to have concrete evidence or else it doesn't matter.

[Using your logic, it would also be really flawed to conclude Aliyev was Azeri "based off of looks." I didn't intend to 'prove' anything, but wanted to float the idea out there to see if anyone has information. I will tell you this: Ilham Aliyev is not an ethnic Azari.]

and again stop using the weapon supplying thing to pit armenia against israel.

[You're right - we should just pretend Israeli weapons fired at Armenians are in Armenia's interests. I'm sure that's what the Armenian Military does, right? Imagine the head of the Armenian military saying: "Please don't talk about who is giving those rockets, drones, and machine guns to our arch enemy to kill our people during war time - it might hurt the Israelis' feelings.".]

sorry but iran is not equivalent to russia when it comes to our foreign relations.

[Can you find any place where i said they are "equivalent"? Can you find any place where i said this is important for me or Iran to be "equivalent" with Russia? Post a link with my quotes.]

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

Armenians in Armenia do not like georgians that much Mos, either you are lying, or have somehow talked only with the very few who do. Most Hayastanci's (rightfully) dislike georgians and their government because of their chauvinism.

If georgians believed what you were saying above, that we share a similar culture, religion, history, etc. then we'd be in some sort of union with them or confederation. Or at the very least they would not be so hostile to Armenians wanting to learn in their own language in their schools.

http://asbarez.com/94097/whatre-the-...mong%e2%80%a6/ Read this for more reasons why Armenians don't like georgians.

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

http://rt.com/news/iran-people-church-tv/

An Armenian church is shown in the 1st half of the video.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

[So that makes it okay for Israel to provide weapons to Azerbaijan at a time of war?]

No it doesn't, but I will say for the 1000th time, that Russia also gives weapons to Azeris, and Azeris have more Russian weapons than Israeli. This fact doesn't change our relations with Russia.

[Israeli politicians are elected not only by "azeri-j3ws," but by every Israeli of voting age. If you and i know that israel sells weapons to Azerbaijan, you can safely conclude the Israeli public does also.]

There are more dire issues on the voting agenda for Israel, than weapon transfer to Azerbaijan. Everyday Israelis is not voting based on this issue - they don't care about this, it's not very important, and no not many people are even aware of this. Show me one election campaign that highlights "that if you elected me, I will support Azerbaijan." Did voters in Albania vote so that Albania would send weapons to Armenia?

[Using your logic, it would also be really flawed to conclude Aliyev was Azeri "based off of looks." I didn't intend to 'prove' anything, but wanted to float the idea out there to see if anyone has information. I will tell you this: Ilham Aliyev is not an ethnic Azari.]

What is your proof, besides speculation on his looks?

[You're right - we should just pretend Israeli weapons fired at Armenians are in Armenia's interests. I'm sure that's what the Armenian Military does, right? Imagine the head of the Armenian military saying: "Please don't talk about who is giving those rockets, drones, and machine guns to our arch enemy to kill our people during war time - it might hurt the Israelis' feelings.".]

I never said that was a good thing. But again, weapon transfer is a business. So should Armenia cut its ties with Russia because it sells weapons Azerbaijan? Actually Russia sold S-300 missiles to Azerbaijan more lethal than anything you listed there. Of course we wouldn't want that, but in the end of the day all this is like business. Actually military realtions stems from have tangible strategic relations (e.g. us being part of CSTO).

[Can you find any place where i said they are "equivalent"? Can you find any place where i said this is important for me or Iran to be "equivalent" with Russia? Post a link with my quotes.]

Write a letter to Iran, and ask the government to stop doing Armenia "favors" (since according to you they don't exist any way) and see how you are received by Armenians. Much what you said could easily be said about Iran also ('they stand by our security,' 'historic military alliance,' etc.).

Armenians in Armenia do not like georgians that much Mos, either you are lying, or have somehow talked only with the very few who do. Most Hayastanci's (rightfully) dislike georgians and their government because of their chauvinism.

If georgians believed what you were saying above, that we share a similar culture, religion, history, etc. then we'd be in some sort of union with them or confederation. Or at the very least they would not be so hostile to Armenians wanting to learn in their own language in their schools.

I never said we all like Georgians - yes there is sort of a rivalry between us - but the biggest part of the dislike stems from our differing strategic relations (us being close with Russia).

We do share similar history, culture, religion, (only natural as we've been neighbours for ages) - but a confederation does not stem from cultural closeness it stems from purely strategic interests, and Armenia and Georgia don't share the same strategic direction. And both have different problems when it comes to territories (Georgia is territorial integrity, we are self determination).

The hostility in the schools is because Georgians don't want their country to be come too divided anymore. Our culture is not identical and obviously we have differing languages so that point of divide is enough for such hostility.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

@ Mos, your comments are entirely Pro-Israel and Pro-Azerbaijan propaganda - and totally against Armenia.

First, you suggest that it's okay for Israel to arm Azerbaijan because "Russia also gives weapons to Azeris" -- You try to convince people that two-wrongs make a right and try to confuse the discussion by including Russian policies (Russia's and Israel's interests and policies are not the same -- Russia borders Azerbaijan and Armenia - Israel doesn't.). Nevertheless, the reality for any Armenian military commander is that if Russia is also Arming Azerbaijan and Israel is arming Azerbaijan, it puts Armenia at double the risk -- it doesn't somehow make Israel's actions forgivable. The only rational Armenian policy -- if you care about the survival of Armenia -- is to work against any country arming Azerbaijan. Instead, you constantly make excuses for Israel.

Secondly you make excuses for the Israeli voting public and politicians who are arming Azerbaijan -- these Israelis do not object to Israel openly arming Azerbaijan against Armenia during a time of war. Your excuse is that: "Everyday Israelis are not voting based on this issue [of arming Azerbaijan against Armenia]." Every-day Israelis have a free press - they can see that their elected leaders are transferring military arms to Azerbaijan -- if they cared about Armenia or objected to arming Azerbaijan "Every day Israelis" would protest the actions of leaders they elected and protest against the Israeli government's and lobby's massive efforts to block discussions about the Armenian Genocide. But most Israeli's are happy with these policies and do not object.

"EVERY-DAY" ISRAELIS/ZIONISTS HAVE LONG SHOWN THEIR STANCE TOWARDS ARMENIANS - EVEN IF THEIR VIEWS CHANGE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO KNOW THIS HISTORY:

Source: Turkish Daily News, April 26, 2007

"Four large U.S. J*wish groups have lent support to Turkey’s position in opposing the passage of two resolutions pending in Congress that call for official recognition of World War I-era killings of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire as genocide. B’nai B’rith International, the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), the American J*wish Committee and the J*wish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA) have recently conveyed a letter from Turkish J*ws who oppose the resolution to U.S. congressional leaders, officials from the groups told the Turkish Daily News.

In their letter, leading Turkish J*ws have urged congressional leaders to postpone considering the genocide measures. In conveying the letter to Congress officials, the four U.S. xxxish groups tacitly agreed to its contents. Going further, the ADL and JINSA have also added their own statements opposing the bill."

Thirdly, I wrote (and I'm quoting) that: "I didn't intend to 'prove' anything, but wanted to float the idea out there to see if anyone has information [about Aliyev's real ethnic background]." (Notice the quotation marks.) Where I stated that I didn't intend to prove anything -- but rather sought "to see if anyone has information" -- you then pretend that I sought to prove this by stating: "Where's your proof?" I think there is a reasonable suspicion about Aliyev's true ethnic background. Let's look at history: Attaturk is widely reported to have been a Turkish-J3w (by Israeli journalists nonetheless! and in interviews that he gave), so we know that there is at a minimum a historical risk of this. Furthermore, I am Iranian -- I know what a real Azari looks like and I know what a Turkish-J3w looks like. I have never seen a red-haired 6 foot 5 inch (195.58 cm) Azari that looks like a Turkish-J3w. Find me one picture of an Azari from Iran that looks like this! Your job should be easy: There are millions of Azaris in Iran. Find one picture. Moreover, Aliyev is incredibly pro-Israel (and anti-Muslim), in much the same way Attaturk was, which also raises suspicion.

A few quotes from respected publications about Attaturk show this risk - I am suggesting Aliyev may be the same and it merits investigation:

Source: The Literary Digest (a U.S. news journal published October 14, 1922, Page: 50).

"A Spanish xxx by ancestry, an orthodox Moslem by birth and breeding, trained in a German war college, a patriot, a student of the campaigns of the world's great generals, including Napoleon, Grant and Lee - these are said to be a few outstanding characteristics in the personality of the new "Man on Horseback" who has appeared in the Near East. He is a real dictator, the correspondents testify, a man of the type which is at once the hope and fear of nations torn to pieces by unsuccessful wars. Unity and power have come back to Turkey largely through the will of Mustafa Kemal Pasha."

* * *

WHEN KEMAL ATATURK RECITED SHEMA YISRAEL ("It's My Secret Prayer, Too," He Confessed) By Hillel Halkin

ZICHRON YAAKOV - There were two questions I wanted to ask, I said over the phone to Batya Keinan, spokeswoman for Israeli president Ezer Weizman, who was about to leave the next day, Monday, Jan. 24, on the first visit ever made to Turkey by a xxxish chief of state. One was whether Mr. Weizman would be taking part in an official ceremony commemorating Kemal Ataturk.

Ms. Keinan checked the president's itinerary, according to which he and his wife would lay a wreath on Ataturk's grave the morning of their arrival, and asked what my second question was.

"Does President Weizman know that Ataturk had xxxish ancestors and was taught Hebrew prayers as a boy?"

"Of course, of course," she answered as unsurprisedly as if I had inquired whether the president was aware that Ataturk was Turkey's national hero.

* * *

After sending my fax to Batya Keinan, I phoned to check that she had received it. She had indeed, she said, and would see to it that the president was given it to read on his flight to Ankara. It is doubtful, however, whether Mr. Weizman will allude to it during his visit: The Turkish government, which for years has been fending off Muslim fundamentalist assaults on its legitimacy and on the secular reforms of Ataturk, has little reason to welcome the news that the father of the 'Father of the Turks' was a crypto-xxx who passed on his anti-Muslim sentiments to his son. Mustafa Kemal's secret is no doubt one that it would prefer to continue to be kept.

* * *
IT HAS BEEN THE MODUS OPERANDI OF ISRAELI MILITARY TO POSE AS MUSLIMS: IGNORING THESE PRACTICES AND PRETENDING THEY DON'T EXIST JUST PUTS ARMENIA AT RISK. NO OFFENSE TO PEACE-LOVING J*WS, BUT THE ISRAELI MILITARY USES THIS TECHNIQUE:


"Another Aman-Mossad agent was the Egyptian-born j*w, Eli Cohen. Inveigled into Syria during the 1960s, he posed as an Arab military expert and gained access to top secret Syrian military plans. His data proved indispensable during the 1967 Six Day War. Yet he too was unmasked, and was subsequently publicly executed in Damascus."

Israeli source below:
http://www.bje.org.au/learning/people/famous/spies.html

Mos, I asked your for quote from what I said and you quoted something I never wrote -- you posted something someone else wrote. I am not a spokesperson for anyone else. The quote below is not from me. If you have any integrity, put the link and the post number so people can check it. For example this is post #195.

I DIDN'T WRITE THIS! WHETHER IT'S RIGHT OR WRONG IS NOT FOR ME TO DEFEND:

Armenians in Armenia do not like georgians that much Mos, either you are lying, or have somehow talked only with the very few who do. Most Hayastanci's (rightfully) dislike georgians and their government because of their chauvinism.

If georgians believed what you were saying above, that we share a similar culture, religion, history, etc. then we'd be in some sort of union with them or confederation. Or at the very least they would not be so hostile to Armenians wanting to learn in their own language in their schools.

Nor did I say that Iran's relationship with Armenia is "equivalent" to Russia's relationship with Armenia -- Iran doesn't sell Azerbaijan weapons, so that's one major difference there.

I will be honest Mos, not only are many of your posts ill-informed - they also seem to be deliberately inaccurate and nothing more than excuses for country's hostile to Armenia.

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

I never said we all like Georgians - yes there is sort of a rivalry between us - but the biggest part of the dislike stems from our differing strategic relations (us being close with Russia).

We do share similar history, culture, religion, (only natural as we've been neighbours for ages) - but a confederation does not stem from cultural closeness it stems from purely strategic interests, and Armenia and Georgia don't share the same strategic direction. And both have different problems when it comes to territories (Georgia is territorial integrity, we are self determination).

The hostility in the schools is because Georgians don't want their country to be come too divided anymore. Our culture is not identical and obviously we have differing languages so that point of divide is enough for such hostility.

The biggest part of our dislike is due to georgian chauvinism and enviousness of Armenians. Did you read the asbarez article I posted? Armenians have held negative opinions of georgians even during soviet times when both of our nations had the same political alignment. Before shakasvilli came to power, when georgia was still in the Russian camp, Armenians still didn't like georgians much. The feel is mutial but where as ours is reactionary to them, they envy us and therefore when they get a chance to hurt us they take it. While Hayastanci's may not care too much for the Iranians either, they at least understand the positive role Armenian-Iranian cooperation has for Armenia. But all Armenians know that if it were not for the blockade of Armenia, that we'd drop georgia in a heartbeat as our 'link' to the outside world. As soon as the highway and rail line between Armenia and Iran is completed you will see a shift in official Yerevan's responses to georgian provocations in Javakh and against Armenian churches.

A confederation is based on many calculations, it is not all based on interests. Countries that share similarites in culture, ethnicity, history, religion, language, etc. and have some objective interests as well are more likely to pool together than those who are more foreign. The Benelux are an example of this.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

@ Mos, your comments are entirely Pro-Israel and Pro-Azerbaijan propaganda - and totally against Armenia.

So taking a pragmatic approach to politics makes me pro-Azeri/Israeli? Tell me one place that I have said a pro Israeli or pro Azeri statement. You are in no position at all to say that I'm against Armenia.

1) I'm not making excuses for Israel and I've never said I'm okay with them supplying Azerbaijan. All I'm saying is that weapon selling doesn't constitute creating an idealogical grudge against a country. Of course, it's logical to be unhappy with Israel, but in the end of the day weapon selling is a business, and it's done between many countries all over. If we worked against any country arming Azerbaijan, than we would have to go against Russia as they are one of the biggest suppliers to Azerbaijan, more than Israel actually. But no we don't - we have to be pragmatic.

2) Israelis don't care about their country arming Azerbaijan. Not because they have something against Armenia, that's BS. There are more important issues on their mind, than some weapon transfer to a external country far away. You elect politicians based on their history with weapon transfer to a random country?

3) There is diversity in every ethnic group. I know blue eyed, blond haired Armenians (that are pure Armenian), I know Armenians over 2 meters, I even have seen orange haired Armenians. Look there's diversity in every ethnic group, everybody doesn't look the same. You speculation is really flimsy and if you don't have any tangible evidence regarding Aliyev's history than you should make such claims (talking about being ill-informed).

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The biggest part of our dislike is due to georgian chauvinism and enviousness of Armenians. Did you read the asbarez article I posted? Armenians have held negative opinions of georgians even during soviet times when both of our nations had the same political alignment. Before shakasvilli came to power, when georgia was still in the Russian camp, Armenians still didn't like georgians much. The feel is mutial but where as ours is reactionary to them, they envy us and therefore when they get a chance to hurt us they take it. While Hayastanci's may not care too much for the Iranians either, they at least understand the positive role Armenian-Iranian cooperation has for Armenia. But all Armenians know that if it were not for the blockade of Armenia, that we'd drop georgia in a heartbeat as our 'link' to the outside world. As soon as the highway and rail line between Armenia and Iran is completed you will see a shift in official Yerevan's responses to georgian provocations in Javakh and against Armenian churches.

A confederation is based on many calculations, it is not all based on interests. Countries that share similarites in culture, ethnicity, history, religion, language, etc. and have some objective interests as well are more likely to pool together than those who are more foreign. The Benelux are an example of this.

True, but there's a long road till even a confederation is possible. There are to many unresolved issues and distrust for all of us to live under the same political structure. I see the Caucasus as similar to the Balkans actually, a small area, filled with diverse groups, religions, politics, etc. In essence, when the Soviet Union broke, we experienced "balkanisation".

We can't have Iran be our only route to the outside world. We are heavily dependent on European and Russian markets, so having the Georgian or maybe even Turkish border open is essential for our economy. That is why our government works so hard to have good relations with Georgia and frequently has state visits. We even gave Sakashvili a state award just after the 2008 War which angered Russia greatly. The government knows the important of keeping the goods and gas flowing through the Georgian border, and in my opinion one of the reasons that they have not paid attention to the Javakh issue that much is for this reason. Iran can help us a good deal when it comes to economy and they have throughout the years, but they can't replace the Georgia route, as the European/Russian markets are much more valuable and important for us.

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

True, but there's a long road till even a confederation is possible. There are to many unresolved issues and distrust for all of us to live under the same political structure. I see the Caucasus as similar to the Balkans actually, a small area, filled with diverse groups, religions, politics, etc. In essence, when the Soviet Union broke, we experienced "balkanisation".

We can't have Iran be our only route to the outside world. We are heavily dependent on European and Russian markets, so having the Georgian or maybe even Turkish border open is essential for our economy. That is why our government works so hard to have good relations with Georgia and frequently has state visits. We even gave Sakashvili a state award just after the 2008 War which angered Russia greatly. The government knows the important of keeping the goods and gas flowing through the Georgian border, and in my opinion one of the reasons that they have not paid attention to the Javakh issue that much is for this reason. Iran can help us a good deal when it comes to economy and they have throughout the years, but they can't replace the Georgia route, as the European/Russian markets are much more valuable and important for us.

The Caucasus make the Balkans look simple. I do not think we will have a confederation, so we do not need to discuss this, I just brought it up to show what would be the ideal and what could have occured had the georgians not been the chauvinists which they are.

Once the railway and highway between Armenia and Iran are complete Armenia will have newer markets and another route to ship its goods and recieve goods. I don't think Armenia would actually drop georgia, but they'd take less crap. Also, since it is a 2 way street, once sakashvilli is gone and there is pro Russian government in tiflis, then we can expect relations to get better between Armenia and georgia.

On a related note, one idea that has been floated before is if war erupts again in Artsakh then, assuming we win, we will conquer the lands from northern Artsakh toward ganja and further north to the azeri-Russian border. With Russia's support and an Armenian victory I think this can be done, and not much the international community can do if Russia uses the veto at the un. I believe this is more likely to happen than Armenia regaining access to the Black Sea and re taking Western Armenia from turkey.

[Mos]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

The Caucasus make the Balkans look simple. I do not think we will have a confederation, so we do not need to discuss this, I just brought it up to show what would be the ideal and what could have occured had the georgians not been the chauvinists which they are.

Once the railway and highway between Armenia and Iran are complete Armenia will have newer markets and another route to ship its goods and recieve goods. I don't think Armenia would actually drop georgia, but they'd take less crap. Also, since it is a 2 way street, once sakashvilli is gone and there is pro Russian government in tiflis, then we can expect relations to get better between Armenia and georgia.

On a related note, one idea that has been floated before is if war erupts again in Artsakh then, assuming we win, we will conquer the lands from northern Artsakh toward ganja and further north to the azeri-Russian border. With Russia's support and an Armenian victory I think this can be done, and not much the international community can do if Russia uses the veto at the un. I believe this is more likely to happen than Armenia regaining access to the Black Sea and re taking Western Armenia from turkey.

Having a border with Russia would do wonders for us. But remember how much more difficult attacking is than defending. To take that much territory would take a lot of manpower and also we would lose the image of being the defenders under Azeri aggression. We would never have a military confrontation with Turkey, without Russia on our side, and that as you can predict would be like a World War. Plus, I doubt Turkey or Russia would be willing to fight each other.

When it comes to markets, I still think the European/Russia markets are much more valuable for us - access with Iran can only give us so much. Remember Iran itself is under economic restrictions.