Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 1

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which portion is propaganda or so to speak angry reactions without much thought. For example, your remarks about Mustafa Kemal. Do you have any semi objective basis for your remarks?

The answer was there but apparently you didn’t notice it.
No portion is propaganda I’ I’m not a government or a politician.
I pasted a chronology of events that took place in the years
1920 to 1923. The Armenian Genocide started in 1895 and continued until 1923.
Below, once more you can see the events I had emphasized and I’ll qualify each act with more or less the adjective I had used for your grandpaws, that offended you guys the most. See if your “semi-objective” brain can associate Kemal with these epithets (in red):

1/21/1920 Turkish Nationalist forces affiliated with Mustafa Kemal attack Marash.
Invader

2/5/1920 10,000 Armenians are massacred in Marash.
Genocidal Maniac

8/15/1920 The Turkish Nationalist and Bolshevik forces form an alliance (where’s your gratitude? H.)
Treacherous, Sly and Cunning

11/22/1920 President Woodrow Wilson presents his delineation of the borders of Armenia. A week later Armenia is partitioned by Turkish Nationalist forces and Sovietized by Russian Bolsheviks.
Self-Righteous, Self-satisfied, Priggish Pig

11/25/1920 Of 10,000 Armenians living in Hadjin (Hajen), only 480 survive a massacre by Turkish Nationalist forces.
Fascist, Genocidal Maniac

1/20/1921 The Turkish Nationalist Pact demands the inclusion of Armenia, Smyrna, and Thrace in Turkish territory.
Self-Righteous, Arrogant

2/11/1921 After a ten-months siege, Aintab capitulates to Turkish Nationalist forces.
Invader, Torturer, Having No Consideration for Human Suffering and Freedom of the Indigenous People

9/9/1922 The advance guard of the Turkish Army enters Smyrna and pillages Armenian and Greek homes and stores. Armenians and Greeks are killed in the thousands. Religious institutions, including the Armenian Prelacy in Smyrna, are ransacked.
Blood Thirsty, Plundering, Homes, Churches and Shops Torching, Violent, Intolerant, Barbaric Two Legged Beast

9/13/1922 The burning of Smyrna by the Turks. Within 24 hours, 50,000 houses, 24 churches, 28 schools, 5 consulates, 7 clubs, 5 banks, and an unknown number of stores and warehouses are destroyed. Cities to Cinders Razing, Homes, Churches, Schools and Everything Else to Rubble Reducing Bandit

7/24/1923 Treaty of Lausanne signed by Turkey and the Allies excludes all mention of Armenia or the Armenians. Self-Satisfied, Arrogant, Cunning Bastard

The Armenian Genocide is still going on, because denial is the continuation of the crime and a point you never seem to care to deal with is the systematic destruction of Armenian monuments, especially the churches. This is a violent and “angry reaction(s) without much thought” to erase every trace of evidence of the presence of the indigenous Armenians. It’s like the murderer who is destroying all the memoirs among other evidence that the owners of the house he raped and slaughtered, and whose house he is now occupying, had left that proved beyond reasonable doubt that they were there before the murderer/thief broke in.

Or your remarks which claims “desperate times need desperate measures therefore Armenians had the right to exterminate the Turks.

Answering accusations that the entire WWI casualties suffered by Turks were caused by the handful of Armenian freedom fighters, I remarked that even HAD the Armenians committed those atrocities (which they couldn’t have, wouldn’t have and didn’t commit), you of all people shouldn’t condemn them, because it’s nothing compared to what you have done to us since the ill day your ancestors appeared uninvited on our soil. Haven’t you ever heard of an eye for an eye? Don’t they chop off the hand of a wretched, poor, hungry xxxxx who steals a loaf of bread, according to your own laws?
How on earth you allow yourselves to break into a house, rape and kill the inhabitants, hurl “babies…mercilessly against rocks” , and if one day one of the survivors attacks you for revenge and probably kills a couple of armed men you cry havoc and raise hell? Where’s your sense of justice?

Or your comments about KHocaly Massacre. Did you at all read the articles that were published in western media just after the massacre? According to you “Somewhat 100 Azeri’s were killed by friendly fire” and your witness is Muttalibov (as you recall he was blamed for the incident and had to leave the office). Why are you shy about the events not somewhat 100 Azeris were killed, let’s put the number “613”, from all ages, many were children...

For the millionth time, don’t play the “Numbers Game” it doesn’t work. Whether 100, 613, 600,013 were killed in Khojaly, it doesn’t change the FACT that IT WAS YOU WHO DID IT. Don’t pin it on us, it doesn’t stick. I cited a document written to the UN that clearly shows it was YOU who did it. If you have a document that proves the Armenians had a hand in it, then why don’t you show us? It was the diabolical “Azeri” hate and smear campaign that aimed to fool the world that Armenians can also be like genocidal Turks but the truth says something else so let’s leave it there.

Any way, I try to get not offended with how you choose your wordings about Turkish people, but it is not always fun to read all those qualifier. So don’t push your luck.

You extinguished every photon of our luck since the damned day your barbarous ancestors set hoof in our homeland. Just read the samples of the things they did to us a thousand years ago, though “ it is not always fun to read ”, and have never stopped doing, recorded by Aristakes Lastivertsi, who was there and who saw it with his own eyes and don’t be offended.

Here, you assume that it should be me who should care about the “negativity” of my postings. Since the Turks has a negative image and I am the one who is responsible to change your perception of the Turks…

I don’t know, you put this question to yourself and decide for yourself.

As far as I can see I can’t change such an attitude in your postings. I do recognize that you also don’t have control on such statements.

Read the Aristakes Lastivertsi samples above and don’t blame me. Put yourself for one second in my place.
And you’re wrong, you CAN “change such an attitude” by:
I. Facing your history
II. Accepting who you are and where you come from
III. Showing understanding, remorse and sympathy to the ones your ancestors wronged
IV. Start acting as responsible citizens of the world, thus, embracing civilization. It will be good for yourselves too, you know.

And I am not here to read your harassments and hatred.

Oh, come on! Harassment? You call the rightful bitterness of someone whose entire industrious, creative nation has been subjected to rape, destruction, torture, genocide and harassment for a thousand years, without the slightest show of remorse, by your kind, HARASSMENT?

But I will keep it as little as possible. Take my word. J
On the other hand there are things that I can’t control. Such as the terminology.
For example the geography we call Eastern Anatolia, you call Armenia. That doesn’t offend me what you call it.

OFFEND YOU? The country has a name. It’s been called Armenia on all maps and in all historic documents ever created. I demanded you to show me a historic document that calls Armenia by the highly offensive, insolent term “Eastern Anatolia”.

But I prefer calling Asia Minor, or Eastern Anatolia because both of these are what people used to called these lands thousands year ago. Anatolia is the Greek name of the land that we are living today. Actually I rather prefer Asia Minor, which is the Latin word…You call whatever you call, but you should respect my choice of selecting the terminology as well.

You prefer calling your momma or your cat whatever you like and I’ll respect that, you cannot change the truth and demand respect at the same time. Asia Minor is the whole region you occupy. It’s like a name for a continent. You have Asia as a continent, but all the countries in Asia aren’t called: Eastern Asia, Southeastern Asia, Northern Asia and so forth.
P.S. I wonder why you like the Greek name less! Still, I shall correct you, you equate Asia Minor with “Eastern Anatolia” in your first sentence! And Armenia was NEVER called “Eastern Anatolia” before the rise of Pan-Turkism.

Actually, I don’t care what you think about the Turks or what any other person thinks. There are millions of people who love and there will be millions others who will hate.

Good for you. you see, you even squeezed a smiley out of me.

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 2

My view of the history tells that the people in this geography (Let’s call it the Greater Asia Minor, or the Ottoman Land – or name it your self and I will continue to use it later…) have similar habits, similar behavioral patterns, similar hates, similar blindness, similar stupidity, etc. What you say about the Turks, is actually what the other nations lived here are.

No, no, no, no, a thousand times NO. Turks are comers. They are NOT the indigenous people, because I AM the indigenous people and you killed my people and threw the rest out of their homes. This is where you start to show your delusional character. The worst is yet to come…

On the other hand, I do care that something in the history resulted a trauma on some of the people once we shared the same land and history. Which resulted in hatred, such as the one that you have

You sowed the seeds of hate not us, never forget this for a millisecond. And who says I hate you? You confuse bitterness with hatred. I am not capable of hate, because if I were I’d do such things the full of hatred suicide bombers are committing every day. That’s blind hatred, of oneself in the first place. Hatred is an attribute nature (or god, for those who believe) was too parsimonious distributing when creating the Armenians, alas and alack!

This bothers me. I feel I have some responsibility. That’s why I am writing on this site. In that sense yes I do care your feelings.

You should be content that your conscience moves you to feel some kind of remorse.

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For example you didn’t quote the following part from the post that you have responded;

Phenotype studies reveals that genetically the people leaving in Turkey has mixed blood. … the genetically the neighbouring populations are close to each other (I can't change these results, sorry). Even though the history tells that Turks came from Central Asia (which is true), we were here.
Turks are now part of us. Maybe my brain, or ear...I was here since the first man came here. I will stay here till the last man leaves. I can't change this. Do I make sense??

Your BRAIN for sure! I have answered this in several ways, even in the Walton “story”. I have said time and again that Turks stole our women and children, they stole our genes, our DNA if you like. I have mentioned several times that race is not an issue. You are what you think you are. You are a product of your upbringing. If you think like a Turk and you talk like a Turk and you act like a Turk, then you are a Turk, period. All your posts show this and we will get to it later. This is unequivocal: You Think Like A Turk Therefore You Are A Turk. You cannot be considered the owner of what you steal according to any laws governing any orderly society anywhere in the universe. You cannot be considered the legitimate heirs of the heritage of the people you exterminated.

Armenians lived in their homeland for thousands of years, then the Turks invaded and after centuries of abuse they decided to empty Armenia of its indigenous inhabitants. As a result no Armenians live in their ancestral home anymore. This is by definition called genocide, end of story.

Wrong. The Turks came after Greeks. Greeks came after Persians. Persians came after Armenians. Armenians came after Sumerians. They came after Hitits. Hitits came after Hattis. They came after…etc. You can change the order as you wish. It’s not the order that matters and I don’t care who came first. “ALL are the new comers”. Brought something, religion food, language. Asia Minor is the home. Everybody else is a tenant.

It’s DAMN WELL the ORDER that matters and I DO CARE who came first! You are the uninvited “tenants”, I am the eternal landlord, at least until the day human race still hasn’t been annihilated by:
I. the fundamentalists
II. a meteor
III. disease
or until the day the sun explodes and becomes a black hole and destroys the planets.

They marry each other. 50 generations later some are assimilated. Some of the people think that they are pure Turks, some think that they are Armenians, …I might be from a family which is started when a Greek married a Kurd. Then down the generations they are forced or in order to find a job, or for some other reasons, they are assimilated. After the assimilation their grand grand grand son –me- is now living in Turkey …

“some…think that they are pure Turks, some think that they are Armenians”… Indeed.
Assimilations have happened throughout the course of history. Sometimes they were forced. You are what you think you are as mentioned earlier. Forced assimilation is not good, genocide is worse, denying it and wiping out the traces of the indigenous people is even worse, rewriting history is worse than all.

From your writings I do understand that we have same ideas about the roots of the population who is currently residing in Turkey.

Once more: race is not an issue. The “currently residing” thief cannot be considered the owner of the house they turned into ruins.

There comes the point that we don’t agree. You entitle those who are not assimilated as the indigenous people,… but those who are assimilated as non-indigenous. Who gives you the right? Asking about “being self-righteous”, I deserve an answer from you on this point.

This is GE-NO-CI-DAL. It’s what they put in your head, I don’t blame you.
From your writing one senses that the Armenians, having had a rich culture and civilization, a rich language and alphabet, customs they cherished and loved, a proud history, figures such as Vartan Mamikonian and Tigran the Great, influential architecture, manuscript writing, etc. HAD TO SUCCOMB TO THE WISHES OF THE BARBARIC, BABIES TO ROCKS HURLING INVADERS and give up all they had produced and cherished throughout millennia to fit in your genocidal view of the world and become assimilated, OR DIE? How can you think this way? Man, you have the capacity to write in a foreign language yet your reasoning is that of Stone Age people. What did they do to you?
I put your question to you: “Who gives you the right? Asking about “being self-righteous”, I deserve an answer from you on this point”

I am assimilated with Turkish language, Armenian food, Sumerian clothing – Arabic religion – African hairs – Slavic height – Greek music… When I say "I was here till the beginning of the time", I mean these.

You Think Like A Turk Therefore You Are A Turk, and Turks are comers, they came in the 11th century. Still, Ottomans came in 1299 and they plundered Armenia in 1520’s.

By the way in Canada they teach at schools that the natives (first nation they call) came from central Asia. So according to the theory of first comers, I believe the Turks has to claim their land back from the North Americans?

Go ahead, your call. It’s not my business. However, do me a favor and don’t hurl babies down the Niagara Falls. (BTW, here you consider all the Central Asian peoples, ancient and new, to be Turks!)

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 3

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OK. That’s what I am telling as well. Turks are new comers but WE WERE HERE. So?

Already answered in the quote you were dealing with. Once more YOU WERE’NT HERE, WE WERE.

This is what I believe! How come after so much writing you still can ask if I like it or not. I only wrote up to this point the very thing you are writing now. Are you sure you are reading my posts?

“How come after so much writing you still” don’t get it? By “believing” yourselves to be the “rightful” heirs of the indigenous peoples (past and present, actual or mythical) of the land you are occupying (and beyond), you neither make sense nor your claims are justified by any logic or sane reasoning. As I said, your nationhood not having reached a stage of maturity, you are in fact not quite sure what you are. Read your sentence yourself and see if you make sense: “Turks are new comers but WE WERE HERE”. This reveals a serious confusion in your sense of identity. There is a pathological dichotomy in your own perception of yourselves, a kind of schizophrenic delusion which is both grotesquely ridiculous and alarmingly disturbing.
Whereas I KNOW I’m an Armenian therefore I am not an Egyptian, nor I consider my ancestors to be those who built the Stonehenge or the cathedral of Köln, you “BELIEVE” yourselves to be the descendants of Sumerians, Aramaic, Hurrians, Hitites, Greeks, Parthians, Elamite, Manni, Arrata, Medians, Urartu, Achaemenids, Aluanians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Accadians, Babylonians, Etruscans, Scythians, Eskimo, Martians, Jupiterians, Out of the Milky Wayans, Parallel Universians and heaven knows what not. The FACT being that you are TURKS and your earliest ancestors who appeared this side of the Caspian, as far as history is concerned, are the Oghuz Turks. Nothing more nothing less. So get this inside your head once and for all.

Good for you. What can I say. And by the way the Iranian culture that you are so proud of has been influenced by whom do you think, given the 1000 years of rule and at least 40-50 percent of the populations ethnicity?

I’d like you to put the exaggerated “at least 40-50 percent of the populations ethnicity” to the Iranians themselves. Besides I think we dealt quite enough as far as ethnicity is concerned. I can show you websites where “ethnically” Turkish Iranians express outrage at calling the Turkish speaking Iranians Turks, however, the websites being in Persian cannot be of any value to you I guess, so let’s leave it there, we’re beating a bit too much around the bush.

Well not really. We agree on the following. Some of us are assimilated with the Turkish some of us are not. What makes you to entitle to have more rights on the land. I had asked various questions in the previous posts. One was “Those that are assimilated were fighting against the new comers and defending the land during the WWI. What were the ones that weren’t assimilated doing then?”. This point is actually where we don’t agree. You think that non assimilated ones were helped by the foreigners and were trying to save their land from the assimilated one. Once again, who gives you the right to entitle the non assimilated as the owner of the land and the assimilated ones as not?

GE-NO-CI-DAL again. You see how confused you are? If you don’t, then no amount of reasoning on my part will help. You say “Those that are assimilated” Turks I presume, “were fighting against the new comers”??? You mean the allies who were defending the world against German/Ottoman insanity were newcomers? Newcomers to wheresoever? “and defending the land during the WWI” defending whose land? They were carrying out the MOST DIABOLICAL PLAN IN HISTORY exterminating the indigenous population of the land they were “defending”.
“What were the ones that weren’t assimilated doing then?” They were being driven like sheep to the Syrian desert to roast, while babies were being hurled against rocks, pregnant women were being cut to determine whether the unborn was boy or girl, therefore winning a bet who shall get more from the money or jewels they had just plundered from the same women and others they had just raped, crying babies were being thrown into the air and caught and silenced with bayonets, jaws of the moribund were being hammered out of their skulls to take the eventual gold teeth, several people bundled with ropes were being thrown in the river and devil doesn’t know what not… Which devil “gives you the right to” treat helpless human beings this way? To what species of beasts do you belong that you cannot bring yourselves to show the slightest iota of remorse?
And I don’t “think” neither do I suspect for a second that they were helped by the foreigners. It’s you who are fabricating this crap. Still, if “You think that non assimilated ones were helped by the foreigners” then how come the foreigners didn’t move a finger to help these “non assimilated ones”?

Nice story. But I guess needs some extensions. Before the Kıpchaks, the Darius already did similar things to the Waltons, while he was going for hunt. Actually, Waltons were used to this throughout the history. Not to mention it was the cradle of the civilizations and attracted many others such as the Tall Alexander , the Sea Man, Uncle Hamur.

Thanks, but no extension is needed. By already saying “Your family, the Waltons, has had its share of good and bad days and over the years you have managed to keep the ranch going” in the “story”, your extension is rendered redundant.

Even Kıpchaks were not the last that demolished the house, actually they were the best among the others but who cares J. The Holy Cross Carriers, the Mongols, they came later to plunder the Waltons beloved ranch…

Idem. Wait a minute “Kıpchaks…were the best among the others”??? Your delusion reaches higher degrees of severity. BTW, even though Kipchaks refers more or less to the Seljuks, you time and again disassociated yourselves from Mongols et al. The Ottomans crushed Armenia under their cloven hoofs somewhere in 1520’s so what’s this “Holy Cross Carriers, Mongols… came later” thing’s supposed to mean?

After many years, some members of the Waltons thinks that life goes on. Many things change with in time and we changed as wells. Those who came for plundering brought something.

Death, destruction, subjugation, humiliation…

They didn’t get out. (Alas and alack…H.) They are here. (Double alas and alack…H) We are their sons. (You sound confused. H.) But, some Waltons claim that was not true! “Actually, the ones those who accepted the change (Under the threat of the scimitar of course. H.), are not the real Waltons. (The fruit of rape is not the legitimate member of a family. H.) We are the only Waltons.” (You bet your butt. H.) Said one (ALL. H.) of the Waltons. “Even though you look like use, you eat like us, you drink like us, you sing like us, you are Kıpchaks, (Because YOU DON’T THINK LIKE US. H.) even though you don’t look like them, you don’t eat like them, you don’t sing like them.” (YOU STILL THINK LIKE THEM AND KILL LIKE THEM AND HURL BABIES AGAINST ROCKS LIKE THEM. H.) This discussion was flamed when the Ivanos and the James arrived to the ranch. (“discussion” is futile when delusion has blinded the perception of the Kipchaks. H.)

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 4

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How many mosques are left in Erivan you said? Obviously they are same people on both sides of the borders. Check the following out from the USA state departments web site the report on human rights :

?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????

“…As a result of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict with Azerbaijan, most of the country's Muslim population was forced to leave the country by 1991, and the few remaining Muslims in the country kept a low profile. There was no formally operating mosque, although Yerevan's one surviving 18th century mosque was in practice open for regular Friday prayers on a tenuous legal basis. Although the mosque was not registered as a religious facility, the Government did not create any obstacles for Muslims who wished to pray there. …”

By “How many mosques” you want to say that Armenians brought themselves down to the level of all-destroying Turks, but I don’t see any mention of destruction of mosques in your proof. It actually praises the Armenian tolerance! The Blue Mosque has been renovated by Iranians and is still working.
And please, Mr. Defender of “Azeri” “Rights”, how many hundreds of thousands of Armenians were living in “Azerbaijan” who, subject to massacres, had to leave their homes? Most of the “Azeris” who left Armenia sold their houses, whereas the Armenians were thrown out with utmost barbarity. In the past 15 years, instead of housing the refugees in the plundered homes of the Armenians, the whining Turks have paraded them in front of the media to smear the Armenians whereas the more or less same number of Armenian refugees (proportionally more) have never been used and abused to counter “Azeri” poison propaganda. I consider this to be a weakness on the part of the Armenians but hey, we’re not like howling Turks who raise havoc and mayhem for nothing.
And for the record: The Armenians of the unjustly annexed Artsakh stood up for their right to be released from the barbaric Turkish yoke. They got genocides of Sumgait, Baku, Gandzak, etc. for reply. As if that wasn’t enough, the “Azeris” imposed a war which they fokking lost and they don’t stop their Turkish howling and crying and “threats” for a second. And the money worshipping West is sucking them because of oil.

Did it ever occur to you (and some of the contributors) after about a thousand years of ruling of the Turks (the Turks came to Asia Minor at 1048...the locals still had their faiths, their languages, their historical monuments, etc

How come? The local is me. The Turks came at 1048.

Answered a million times. You “can and will never” get it.

What is wrong with the logic? Can you clarify this point???

There’s something fundamentally mucked up with your logic. I don’t think the thick fog of delusion “can and will” ever be clarified by any logic but here’s another try: I am a painter. You break into my house. You rape and kill my family mercilessly hurling babies against walls. Then you proclaim yourself the master of my house and “believe” you painted the bloodstained (from the hurled babies) pictures that I had painted before you invaded and usurped my property. Capice?

I never claimed that the new comers brought a free open society to a land of dark ages. I claimed that they were not worse than the others.

Well, you claimed, but the fact is that they were worse than the army of the Devil if there was one.

There were churches all around of the Greater Ottoman Land for hundreds of years. Once I read that there were 10 churches around Theselanikki dated to the 6th century. And how many mosques is left after just 90 years? Or synagogues?

There were… Alas, in less than a century, since 1912, over two thousand Armenian churches have been destroyed. I am not keeping count of mosques, I have enough problems of my own to worry about the “heritage” of my bloodthirsty enemy. BTW, didn’t you know that almost all the mosques built in the 16th century Ottoman were the work of Sinan?
Synagogues? Let their owners worry about that too. They don’t even recognize my genocide, should I care about their synagogues more than they do?

"all of the offsprings of" Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians "are now" Muslims "and speak" Turkish.

Wrong. Let’s refer to Greater Asia Minor region, I mean The Greater Ottoman Land. Today the population of this land is nearly 420 Million. Among them 70 Million live in Turkey considering the Kurds, Albanians, Bosnians, Chechnians, say only 40-50 Million has Turkish as the first language. Out of 420 Million, say 50 Million. After a thousand years, only 10-12 percent.

Man! This is getting worse and worse… Listen, these people were minding their businesses millennia before your ancestors raged westwards like locust looking for pasture for their cattle and razed everything standing to the ground, halting the normal progress of their civilizations for one thousand years. How can you be so delusional and still consider all these peoples the slaves and eternal properties of the nomadic Ottomans? Come on, move on man! I’m lost for words.

This was my point. On the other hand, 100 years ago the half of the population in Balkans and the northern Black Sea was Turkish speaking Muslims. Today the population is about 80 –100. How many is left? You wouldn’t mind to respond what the civilized people from Orthodox faith did in Balkans, right? Or the Turks in Armenia? Don’t you think that sending innocent people from the lands they were born just because you think that they are from a different race is not a civilized thing to do?

I think this is already answered but once more again: Before you invaded the region, there were no Turks this side of the Caspian. And to quote you: “who gives you the right to entitle the” invaders “as the owner of the land”? Can’t you bring yourself to accept this little, tiny, craggy, rocky, landlocked 10% piece of our ancestral land that we liberated fighting tooth and nail against those “innocent people from the lands they were born” as the homeland of the people, 90% of whose land you’re occupying? Wouldn’t it be better if you had exterminated us altogether and those “innocent people from the lands they were born” had usurped the tiny remainder of our homeland and the sick Pan-Turkist dream had come true? Isn’t that what you want? Why can’t you let us be? Let us the hell alone for whatever’s sake you believe in.

Sure, this will escape your selective attention but "Did it ever occur to you" how on earth hordes of the nomadic horsemen who numbered several tens of thousands in 1299, now count about 70 million (and some), and the indigenous people are almost totally exterminated?

Wrong. You are twisting the history and making mistakes (intentionally or you don’t know?). It was “only” the Ottomans that you are mentioning among the other Turkic tribes. And, they were numbering several hundred thousands…As you recall before the Ottomans for 200 years Asia Minor was ruşed by the Seljuks. Any way Osmanoğulları was only one of them.

I’m not twisting history, you are. And you’re playing the favorite Turkish “Numbers Game” again. By several tens of thousands I was referring to the Ottomans ONLY, as the date 1299 confirms this. I admit I don’t exactly know how many they counted (nor does any one), but somehow I recall the number 60,000 I may be mistaken but this is not an issue. No matter how many they numbered. Although neither I nor anybody has counted them, they were FAR less in numbers than the indigenous people for sure.

Please refer to any semi objective text which gives some numbers about the influx of the Turkic tribes during 1000-1300 and update your numbers. Then compare that figures with 10-12 percent population of the current figures that I’ve mentioned up.

Idem. I won’t compare because I wish you had never come. Nobody invited you. What do you want from us? You want to Turkify the whole world? Don’t worry, once you’re in the EU the countdown to the annihilation of the European Civilization will start, and I guarantee you, in less than two centuries the whole Europe will speak Turkish. Satisfied?

History, not "one of the contributors", asserts that Turks disdained work. They looked down upon people who worked. It was below them to work. A Turk was a soldier.

Wrong. No need to elaborate any more. You can refer to the my previous posts. Forget everything, Turks were on the crossroads of the Silk Road and the Spice Route. I wonder how you categorize the history. Are these what they teach you in the schools?

“Forget everything”. Let me share a “secret” with you. Thanks to your nomadic ancestors’ banditry, the Silk Road trade was ruined. And how does your example challenge the fact that Turks didn’t like to work?

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 5

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Ermeni ustanin elinden geçmeyen caminin minaresi ayakta kalmaz, yikilir.

Unless an Armenian Master touches a minaret it would collapse soon. Never heard such a proverb…Maybe you have some references?

According to my book, it’s from ‘Ermeni Sorunu’ by T. Ates in ‘Yol’ No. 22-24, p.38, Duisburg, 1982. And thanks for the translation.

However, we are taught that the Armenians were good in construction. The Great Architect Sinan was born to an Armenian family before the rapist, blood thirsty Janissaries adapted him when he was a kid and opened the path to several of the master pieces of Islam.

“was born to an Armenian family”… Since you THINK like a Turk, you can’t bring yourself to say he was Armenian. “opened the path to several of the master pieces of Islam”… and you can’t bring yourself to admit it was his own genius that made him responsible for the best part of 16th century Ottoman construction (over 360 mosques, schools, bridges, hospitals, etc in Turkey and beyond).

Good for them. Add there Architect Sinan, and many others. List is not comprehensive. And I believe it supports what I have been trying to explain for so long. Armenians were part of the family and they felt as such. On the other hand, I need a reference for “About 40% of the export, 60% of the import and 80% of the "empire"'s commerce were run by Armenians.”. I wonder what our Greek and Latin friends will tell on this comment. Do you mind the reference?

You were NOT part of the family. The intruding rapist that thinks, talks and acts 180 degrees differently from the other members, cannot be considered as a legitimate member.
My book says the figures come from ‘The Beginning of Genocide; a brief account of the Armenian massacres in World War I’ by J. Guttman, p.3, New York, 1948’

Did it ever occur to you the list above and the numbers you provided crushes your next comment in which you state:

To recount the miserable state of the Christians under the Ottoman Tyranny scores of thousand-page volumes will not suffice. I'll try to give you a sketchy picture later. Just think of jizya, haraj, janissary, gyavour, reaya for starters.

It didn’t occur to me a second because there were TWO distinct groups of Armenians under the Ottoman Tyranny: The handful of “luckier” ones, the bourgeois so to speak, who lived in Constantinople and the 90%+ unfortunates who lived in Armenia proper and were called the reaya, the peasants, who also bore the brunt of all the calamities that befell them during that dark era. Seems you didn’t care to think about the last sentence of my quote.

Well given your figures of 80 percent of the wealth and the percentage of the population of the Armenians, I wonder if Armenians were miserable what was the situation of the Turks, Arabs, Albanians, Jews and Greeks. Better decide one position, 80 percent of the wealth or miserable.

Idem.

Christians were not forced to convert to Islam...Although the Ottomans did not, as a rule, actively seek to convert their Christian subjects to Islam, it is thought that the greater rights afforded to Muslims in the Ottoman Empire motivated Christians to convert to Islam.

Let me get it off my chest so that you won’t bring this sort of ideas that you copied from McFarty type “historians” here anymore: This is the vilest, most despicable, unfathomably offensive, unimaginably shameful, most sickeningly nauseating, rascally devised, putrid cattle dung, reeking of human-liquefying stench in the whole universe that I have ever heard, and you are offended when I curse and damn your ancestors!

Well. This is what wikipedia and millions of other people writes and thinks. It seems that your school teachers and the sources that helps you to accumulate knowledge thinks the other way around. Curse as much as you can if you will feel better. But I can’t change what many historians think about the history.

Wikipedic “knowledge” shouldn’t “entitle” someone to assume that they know all there is to it. “millions of other people writes”??? Come on! A bit exaggerated, isn’t it?
I don’t think a real historian will produce cattle dung that will claim the cultured Armenian people with millennia old civilization VOLUNTARILY converted to the beliefs of a bunch of nomadic, uncultured, babies against the rocks hurling bandits. I stand firmly by my previous evaluation of the claim.

Thanks. I guess I can find the book myself. On the other hand, I don’t need to get around Turkey, to find those that are converted. I am also “converted to Islam”, actually some of my great great grand parents were. Whatever the reason and whatever their ethnicity was, they were also converted. Actually, Turks themselves were also mostly converted by force. Anyway, we are all converted. I don’t hate the people who converted my ancestors, not that I think they did the right thing. But they are not around so that I can punch them in head. Do you think I have to go to an Arab and kick him in the head would be a nice solution…

You still think like a Turk and nothing in the world I say will let you see things my way, the right way. However, I give it another shot and ask you to read that book at least.

Vicious cycle. Same thing again. Who is first. And Spain was Christian since the beginning of the time I presume and the Arabs were all blood-thirsty barbars and rapist tent dwellers. You said self-righteous? Ever heard of Andalusia?

No comment. BTW, I have family who live there.

So that not a single muslim and jews left in Spain, not more than few hundred thousand Turks in Balkans (and Jes as well!) among 80 million.

Again, you are beating around the bush and want to blame the Armenians for whatever happened to the Muslims and Jews and get away from the Armenian Genocide, the main subject of this forum. Besides, there are more Muslims in Spain than there are Christians in Turkey so, stop this rhetoric.

Today more than 80 million Christian lives in the land of the Ottomans.

Delusional beyond belief. Lost for words…

Yes, yes I know, Greece was a Christian land and they threw out and liberated their land and those muslims or Turks were all blood thirsty rapist hordes, so damn them.

So why did you bring up the subject in the first place?

Anyway, our ancestors also build the Ephesus, and Hattusas and all other structures that are left today in these lands. Even the church of Akdamar.

NO FOKKING WAY! Wake up man! You destroyed TWO THOUSAND Akhtamars in less than a century. How can your conscience ALLOW you to utter such hallucination? Akhtamar’s Sourb Khach church, ordered by King Gagik Artsrouni to an architect named Manuel, was built between 915 and 921, more than a hundred years before your earliest ancestors set hoof in the area. NO “structures that are left today in these lands” most in ruins, and none that were destroyed in these lands by your ancestors, were built by YOUR ancestors. The hypocrite Erdogan says that he will repair the Akhtamar church as a gesture of “good will” but he can’t bring himself to move a finger. Worse, I saw in a newspaper that vandals are coming to the island unprohibited and are shooting with hunting rifles at the magnificent reliefs because the church is unguarded.... This is heritage that belongs to all humanity, and my heart aches when I hear this. But does your heart ache too? I don’t think so, because you’re a Turk and haven’t shown an iota of remorse whenever I bring up the subject of the destruction of Armenian churches.
To quote you: “I wonder what our Greek and Latin friends will tell on this comment: our ancestors also build the Ephesus, and Hattusas”.

But speaking of the Turks of central asia you might visit by person many of their architectural remainings even in Iran. As you might know they ruled İran for a thousand years as well. Ghaznavids J

Idem. Speaking of Iran, let me allow some vulgarity and bring a colloquial Persian proverb that says: Do not f**k with someone else’s c**k. Enough said.

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 6

6

Now, I want to understand the way you interpret the nations and history.
Look, I will be sincere with you and will quote some of your statements from this thread. These statements bother me a lot. When I read them I ask myself if you are really the right person to discuss with. Do you really think as what you have written? I am going to bring this issue once and never again in either case but I wonder whom that I am writing to. Don’t get offended for these quotes. It won’t be repeated again.

You decide if I’m the right person or not, it’s a free world (well…). I’m not offended, OK, I’m kind of sarcastic and often bitter but do you ever ask yourself why? Or don’t you take into account the original comment that makes me react bitterly? So I’ll try to clarify the following. In any case, keep in mind that neither I nor you had any control over what ethnicity we were going to be born to. This should not be considered personal. We don’t know each other personally. By “I” I speak more or less from the viewpoint of the Armenians (some at least) and “you” means the Turks (in general though not all) not your person. The fact that we use nicknames also shows that we are not being personal, right?

The total lack of justice and the humiliation of culturally infinitely superior Armenians by the primitive and backward Turks, which is also well accounted for. So, read any valid history book specially those written in that dark period.

According to Mevlüt xxxdemir (Türk Ordusunun Tarihsel Kökenleri p.12, Ankara 1982.) And I translate from a different language:
“All natural sciences emphasize the underdevelopment of the nomadic peoples. Their presence in cultural, artistic and intellectual areas is almost zilch. This is because the lifestyle of these peoples is not suited to develop such skills. It is almost unthinkable that people who are warring for an existence, can bother to spend time for other things. That’s why the economic component of war must be heavily stressed in the case of the Turks. The productivity of the nomads was insufficient to guarantee a necessary and secure living standard. This observation reveals that the productivity of the people fell far beneath the minimum level of demand. In order to stay alive, they needed supplementary income. To cover these needs war played an essential role.”
We can add that this is why Turkey became the Sick Man of Europe, when there were no more lands to be invaded and plundered.

For the n-th time: if you truly believe that 500,000 Turks were killed by Armenians then you're nuts. Although they had all the rights to do whatever they could to get rid of your barbaric rule, desperate times call forth desperate measures.

This has already been dealt with.

Just take it from me as a fact that ASALA are traitors and we Armenians consider them as anti-Dashnak Turkish agents. Just use your brain. Would Armenians do such a thing in France of all countries?

You haven’t gone through the same experiences growing up as I did. ASALA is bad news (and old news too). For the sake of time saving (look how much we’ve beaten around the bush already), just take it from me that in the Soviet era there was an anti-Dashnak current among the Armenians of the Diaspora. Usually the commies didn’t like the Dashnaks and all their activities were directed against them. Today also, there are Armenians who don’t like the Dashnaks, but their names have been cleared, because if it wasn’t for people like Aram Manoukian, Garegin Njdeh, Dro, Rostom, etc. this small Armenia wouldn’t exist today (too bad for you).
ASALA did everything to smear the Dashnaks. I’ll cut it short here.

Aren't we entitled to "exterminate" you for a change?

Yes it’s a joke and you bet we’re not the genocidal kind. No matter how much the McFartys of the world try to smear the Armenians, it won’t stick.

It seems that you are like a soccer fan, who ever you think is on your side is entitled to do whatever they do, since they do it for "good" purposes, and the others "damn them".

I’m not a soccer fan there you go, you forced another smiley out of me. Still, NOTHING “entitles” you to commit genocide.
P.S. Don’t call it soccer, it’s football. It’s the American variant that soccs!

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 7

7

Who you are to call which one is migration and which one is invasion.

Yours is definitely INVASION.

Would you be kind enough to ask me, who was here on this land since Çatalhöyük. 9000 years ago there were cities on these lands. I wonder what are your references of Armenians “true” history. Can you provide some references for that. I can provide many other interpretations if you like but it seems that you are already aware of them.

I may not be kind enough to you to answer you that whoever “was here on this land” they COULDN’T HAVE, WOULDN’T HAVE and DIDN’T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH TURKS.
Calling the place Çatalhöyük NOW doesn’t make it Turkish 9000 or 900,000 or 900,000,000 or 9000,000,000 years ago.
I think had your government opened your skulls, taken out your brains, cut it in two with an axe and put only half of it back inside, you would still be more reasonable.
Just tell me, how on earth a people who were still nomads even a century ago, a people who hadn’t developed past the hunter-gatherer stage, a people who were/are mercilessly hurling babies against rocks, a people who never had an alphabet, a people who even in this day an age cannot bring themselves to show remorse for the most inhuman deeds of their kind, a people who still in this day and age kill us in our sleep, a people who in this day and age are bulldozing our Khachkars and exploding our churches and are shooting at them, HOW ON EARTH were they building cities 900000000000000000000000 (oops. Doesn’t matter lying costs nothing) years ago! COME ON, OPEN YOUR EYES!

Here we don’t agree with each other in terms of the people who lived in this land say 8000 years ago.

No friggin’ way!

It seems that you even claim that the Hattians were Proto-Armenians even though they didn’t belong to the Indo-European language group.

I don’t claim, you claim the universe. The whole Indo-European crap has become a tool in your hands to claim everything considered non- Indo-European (and some) Turkish. I talk about this in the Waltons and Daltons story too. It’s not that simple and nothing is sure about the Aryan myth. There are just theories. I am 100% sure that the Armenian language developed in Armenia. If you can bring a proof that the Armenian language originated somewhere else then I’d like to see it too.
To elaborate this so that you don’t bring the Indo-European/Aryan subject to deny our ancestry: I think you agree that our knowledge of the reality of people living say 5000 years ago is far less than that of 3000 and that in turn is far less than that of 1000 years ago.
What is known of the Urartian language is only the cuneiform tablets where the kings ordered their feats to be recounted. Some are in Khaldian (Urartian, a Hurrian related language) others in Accadian. My source tells me: “of all the living languages, Armenian is the closest in terms of vocabulary”. It goes on to give examples of words that mean the same and sound similar in both languages. Unlike a ridiculous Turkish study where a “professor” presents a list of words he claims to be the “Urartian glossary” and for every word he cites a Turkish/Persian/Arabic word that SOUNDS more or less similar (regardless of the meaning) and “concludes” the Urartian language to be originated from Turkish! If I had to reason like this “scholar” I could take this whole text and find an Armenian word that remotely or otherwise sounds like every word in it and claim that English comes from Armenian. Isn’t this absurd?
My source also tells me there are theories that argue there is a super-language family that includes this language along with Indo-European, Semitic, Ural-Altaic, Caucasian and Dravidian subgroups. The facts are sketchy. Inaccurate theories are all we have and some are used for political reasons to “prove” that the indigenous Armenians are comers and the nomadic Turkish invaders were civilized people 90000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000 years ago.
Would anyone DARE THINK that the Arab people of Egypt, who don’t have much racial, linguistic and cultural affinity with the Pharaohs, are not the legitimate descendants of those who built the pyramids and the Sphinx?
Why is it always the Armenians, who in many things still share the Urartian heritage, who have always to justify their origins? The thin Indo-European theory is not enough proof to deny us our ancestry. Call it self-righteous, but I only claim what’s naturally obvious and not Sumerians, Aramaic, Greeks, Parthians, Elamite, Manni, Arrata, Medians, Achaemenids, Aluanians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Accadians, Babylonians, Etruscans, Scythians, Eskimo, Martians, Jupiterians, Out of the Milky Wayans, Parallel Universians like you do.

Or what about the Assyrians, Sumerians, Acadians which were not Aryan and not speak a language similar to yours? Or the Western Cacucasians such as the Abasian, etc? Any way they were also “ new comers” to this land in MHO.

Idem. And your opinion is the result of the brain damage I talked about a bit further above.

On the other hand, my way of interpreting the history acknowledges that, maybe not the Armenians but as the great great grand sons, you were here since the beginning of the time. Don’t get me wrong. Armenians were not here say 6000 years ago but YOU were here.

Who says or can prove that the people who originated the Armenians weren’t here 6000 years ago, whereas there can be no doubt those who were “here” had nothing to do with the Turks?

Furthermore speaking an Indo-European language and being Aryan, the history ties the Armenians to places currently belongs to India – Pakistan and Iran, contrary to what you claim.

Idem.

As I wrote before, being the “indigenous” I do welcome the Armenians, whenever you say they came to this land. Most likely during the first time you came, nobody asked me and actually forced me to accept. But you already are around. What can I do. So no need to discuss your arrival.

In any case you came thousands of years after me.

On the other hand, for you, your arrival was a migration for me it was an invasion. Apparently, you don’t mind what your warriors did to us, to the indigenous people, just like the other comers, before you and after you, never minded and called it “MIGRATION”

To YOU! How could they do anything to you when it was you who invaded 1000 years ago and started mercilessly hurling our babies against rocks? Man I’m losing the last rays of hope that you’ll ever be cured of this delusional schizophrenia.

And 3000 years ago Greek called this land Anatolia. And I wonder what the Hattians referred to it. Are you kidding?

Irrelevant. All the historic maps and documents refer to it as Armenia. We don’t even call it Armenia ourselves. You “can and will never” get the point, so no use arguing about this.

I put your own sentence to you “Coming one thousand years ago doesn't entitle you to own the land”. Besides, the Ottomans came in 1299 and Armenia became under the Empire of Plunder in 1512 thus, Invading and pillaging 500 “years ago doesn't entitle you to own the land” in any way.

Irrelevant and have historical twists.

Irrelevant since Ottomans is just a single part of my history as I keep telling. Let’s start with the Hattians for some change, or Greeks, or Darius. They are my history as well. How many times I have to repeat this to make you understand it?

YOU ARE TWISTING MY QUOTES! “Hattians…or Greeks, or Darius” have ABSOFOKKENLOUTELY NOTHING to do with your history. Your mucked up, lobotomized, twisted, cut in pieces brain cannot even produce a reasonable argument. Read your quotes above and try not to die laughing.

Historical twists since it was a bit (500 years) before when the Turks arrived the lands of Armenia. By the way what happened in 1048?

Read the sentence you quoted from my post: first I quote you : “Coming one thousand years ago doesn't entitle you to own the land”, meaning the Seljuks came 1000 years ago. Then I say: “Ottomans came in 1299 and Armenia became under the Empire of Plunder in 1512”. So what do you mean by “Historical twists”? It’s you who are twisting my quotes. BTW, you even admit that “the Turks arrived the lands of Armenia” only 1000 years ago, enough said.

The treaty of Lausanne is the only treaty that is still effective among the ones signed after WWI. The world accepts it. It seems Hellektor does not. You better get used to it.

I didn’t sign it, therefore it’s void. You cannot call a contract legitimate when it’s signed only by one of the sides. Example: You write a contract in which you “entitle” yourself the owner of my house, my car, my wife, my kids, my stereo, my computer, my TV set and everything else I own. You put a nice and tidy signature of yourself under it and you call it legal? It’s not your fault. You are the “invading nomads” after all. What bothers me most is the treacherous “indifference” of the “civilized” countries who only for political and economic reasons xxxxxled upon the rights of the tortured Armenian people.

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 7.5

For the Cilicia you made a vague comment “Armenians lived in Cilicia before the Cilicia Kingdom”. Any numbers of the population on your mind? When did they come first? It seems everybody living on this lands were Armenians. I wonder what the Greeks would think on these remarks?

In the days of Tigran the Great Armenia included Cilicia (partly at least). You do your research and you’ll find out Armenians were dispersed in the entirety of Asia Minor and elsewhere (Persia for instance) since thousands of years. When groups of Armenians, in order to escape the persecution of the Daltons moved southwest to Cilicia, there were already Armenian communities living there. Unless I’m mistaken I haven’t seen a document where it says the Armenians attacked or invaded Cilicia and took it out of hands of others. The Cilician kingdom that formed after the migration created an advanced society that produced priceless artistic heritage and in the short period of its existence (3 centuries give or take), became a prosperous trading power despite the fact that it was invaded and persecuted on monthly basis by Seljuks, Mamluks, Byzantines and else.

For the Cilician Kingdom as far as I can see you have just dated it to a 1000 years ago. There you go. So what is the conclusion? You claim lands, that Armenians rule for “some time” just thousands years ago. Come on, not the Turks BUT I was here 9000 years ago.

Idem. In any case YOU came after us. The Ottomans usurped it from the Mamluks soon after it was turned into ruins (alas and alack), and don’t pretend not to be the descendant of the Ottomans. Your language, ideas, sympathies, thoughts, reasoning and delusion, all point to the fact that you are a Turk, basta.

Oh my god! As you know some people who have the same point of view with you that live in Turkey. Well a little bit different point of view let me say. Not the basis for the formation of the Armenians but for the Turks. What do you call this theory? The Moon Theory or what? If you get together with them this proves that the Turks are also Armenians and Armenians are also Turks.

Besides the joke, I hope you are aware of the fact that Hattians (one of the earliest that I know) were not using Indo-European language but northwestern caucasian language

Moon Theory is not a bad name given that the moon is on your flag and it’s Lucifer’s symbol as well, but “Besides the joke”: This is the same old "The Olsens and the Engelses were living in nearby ranches countless generations ago. Although they moved out of the area many years ago and we will never be able to ask them, they are by no means related to the Waltons therefore they are in fact Kipchaks. Since they are Kipchaks and they settled in the nearby areas generations ago it definitely means that their lands also belong to Kipchaks the same way the lands claimded by the Waltons belongs to Kipchaks and has always belonged to Kipchaks"... story again.

You first kill the people, rape their women and steal their children, destroy their historic monuments, raze their cities to rubble, burn their manuscripts, torch their houses, schools, churches and shops then you claim their genes. No way! It doesn't work that way. Did you know you killed 500,000 Assyrians the same time you were exterminating the Armenians and the Greeks too? Did you know there are thousands of Persian and Arabic words in Turkish? Did you know there are thousands of Latin words in the language we use writing these very messages? So what? You break into a house, you rape and slaughter the inhabitants. Wearing their clothes doesn't make you the owners of their house. Come on, you're not that stupid.

For the extermination I talked enough I guess. Those that are “exterminated” are around us, writing posts on forums. Trying to tell Hellektor he has some crucial mistakes in his way of interpreting the history.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot make those horrible events disappear from our collective memory. Just read the paragraph above you quoted from my post again and try to be more reasonable and sympathetic.

Please allow me to decide who is the owner of the house. Since at least the one that is “raped” is my mother. Turks did the same thing (actually far less) everybody did before and after them. They are here. Among us. And will be here for ever.

Allow me to quote a guy who was there a thousand years ago and don’t blame Hellektor’s “crucial mistakes in his way of interpreting the history”: “Yet [the Saljuqs] totally stripped and pillaged whatever we had, even though we had done nothing to them…they mercilessly threw the corpses of many people to the carnivorous beasts…Mercilessly setting fire to the homes and churches wherein refugees had fled, [the Saljuqs] burned them down, considering this a benevolent act...Such is your wicked history, oh city, blessed and venerable, full [of good things], renowned among the lands. Raise now your eyes and observe your children led into slavery, your babies hurled mercilessly against rocks, your young people burned by fire, the respect-worthy and glorious elderly folk fallen in the squares, your fresh and prosperous virgins and women fallen in disgrace, led away into slavery on foot...”

Unless there is a technology to clean the genetic material or a new Hitler or a new Miloseviç that exterminates all of the population.

You see how Turkish you are? You cannot bring yourself to name Talaat or Abdulhamid in the list, then you claim our heritage you’re destroying day after day. Besides, no matter what Miloseviç did, you cannot equate him with Hitler, but since he killed Turks he is as bad in your Turkish eyes.

It seems that you’ve already chosen your side. You are a new comer who arrived 2600 years ago or some time before it. I was here since the beginning. What was your point, again?

You “can and will never” get my point after I have given you dozens of pages of explanations. Still you “arrived” only 1000 years ago.

I never get offended when you called Turks as Mongols. I just showed how you contradict with your claims. If you read my post I told that calling a Hutu and Tutsi same has a perspective in my point of view. Sometimes you seem to acknowledge the fact that there is no pure races, hence it is irrelevant to perceive the history with the races, then you start making comments that are based on races. Chineese noddles were migrated through the silk road, and the “migration” ( ) of the Turks…

I have been consistent all along. You have equated Turks and Mongols, Turks and Eskimos, Turks and Sumerians, Aramaic, Hurrians, Hitites, Greeks, Parthians, Elamite, Manni, Arrata, Medians, Urartu, Achaemenids, Aluanians, Egyptians, Assyrians, Accadians, Babylonians, Etruscans, Scythians, Eskimo, Martians, Jupiterians… time and again.

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 8

8

Ararat is not chained at all. It’s a lovely mountain inhabited by the lovely people. I wish you had a chance to come and live there. But the way you sound it would be disastrous for either you or the current people living there.

It’s just a lovely mountain to YOU. It’s the eternal symbol of the Armenians. There is absolutely no way I can explain Ararat’s spiritual value for us. You “can and will never” get it. Just know that there are literally thousand upon thousands of poems, songs, paintings, sculpture, etc dedicated to Ararat. I can assure you 100% there is not another nation on this planet who has praised and adored a natural landmark as much. Even the majority of our churches have been modeled on Ararat, with cone shaped larger and higher dome and shorter and smaller belfry. It’s a crime that the bastard Bolsheviks took it from us and gave it to the cunning founder of your criminal republic, because he fooled them and they thought he was a communist. Rest assured that we’ll take it back sooner or later, don’t doubt this for a nanosecond.

I'm sure you are not this stupid. So why are you spewing rubbish that even someone with the IQ of a chimpanzee wouldn't produce? ARMENIA WAS UNDER SOVIET OCCUPATION. It was not a choice. Why don't you ask this question to your own kin, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Tatars, Mongols, "Azeris" and the rest? Why don't you put the question to your dear friends the Georgians, Stalin the psychopathic killer of 20 million and Beria his accomplice being the legitimate "sons" of that nation? You really amaze me sometimes.

The question that I raised is still up in the air. During the time of Stalin there were Armenian member of Parliaments. What did they do when he was forcing the Crimean Tartars? Just a simple question. Either you know the answer or not. Just tell it. They were in the parliament but had no right to vote. Is this what your answer? What was the reaction of the public, local government, the members in Soviets?

Again, read the above quote carefully, your answer is there. If you still don’t get it then once again some questions that you’ll leave “up in the air”:
What makes you think Armenia, one of the smallest and least populated Soviet “states”, had the power to decide for USSR?
Are you giving us credit or do you unconsciously think that Armenians are somehow superior to all those Central Asian relatives of yours?
Why didn’t they do anything?
Didn’t they have members in the parliament?
Who are these influential Armenians that I don’t know of?
Why don’t you put this question to your Georgian friends, Stalin and his right hand killing machine Beria both being Georgians?
Why do you only sympathize with Tatars who weren’t even the indigenous people of the region and you never give a flying phuk when I time and again bring the issue of ethnic cleansing of the indigenous people of treacherously stolen province of Nakhijevan, (my own ancestors having been forcefully moved to Persia from this region), by “Azerbaijan SSR” and not the USSR (so who’s more powerful)?
Isn’t your sympathizing with your kin alone prove that you’re only related to them and not all the people of Asia Minor whose heritage you claim but towards which you do not have the slightest affinity and sympathy?
Why don’t you ask your Tatar friends who had members in the parliament as well, why they didn’t protest to their Tatar kin personating as “Azeris”, against the ethnic cleansing of Nakhijevan?
Why should Armenians of all people sacrifice themselves for the kin of the people who sucked their blood for centuries (It’s just my observation I have no clue whether they did something or not)? Just some “simple question(s), Either you know the answer or not”.

You didn't get or didn't want to get the point. Your grandpas, not having been able to exterminate the Armenians in WWI, took their chances to do so in WWII, using that lunatic, abused-child-turned-mass-murderer Hitler, by calling the Armenians Semitic. This in itself is a proof that:
I. The Armenian Genocide did not start and did not end in 1915.
II. The Armenian Genocide was a diabolically state-planned conspiracy.
III. Therefore the Armenian Genocide did indeed happen.
I'd really LOVE to know how many ardent Neo Nazis have ever heard the word "Armenian" let alone of this "infamous" battalion!
The "infamous" (in fact totally insignificant and unknown) Armenian handful of soldiers in German army did not participate in any mission. BTW, if they had refused to join the army of the country they lived in, wouldn't you call them "coward, backstabbers siding with the Russians" Oh COME ON, give me a phuking break!

If you don't take this back, I'll conclude that what I think of Turks is indeed the concrete, unalterable truth. So you'd better surprise me.

So be ready to get surprised. You are right in this point. They did what they were supposed to do in the sense that fighting against the enemy. I don’t have much clue how they treated the Jews. But I don’t think that the Armenian Battalion was seeking to destroy the Jews. There may be some hatred among only a few of them. However, I don’t think it is significant.

No comment needed.

On the other hand, did Drastamat Kanayan really were helping the NAZİ's as claimed by one of the other contributer?

The reason the McFarty clan is smearing Dro to satisfy the Turks is that he fought against the Turkish army in 1918 in Bash Abaran, (Sardarabad and Qarakilisa being two other fronts) and kicked some serious Turkish ass. Thanks to these battles (and too bad for you) we have this tiny (10% of Armenia) country. Still, the Armenian Genocide happened decades before that so smearing Dro won’t lessen the gravity of that crime.
Now let me give you an example and let’s let Dro RIP. Your family is taken hostage at gun point. What wouldn’t you do to save them?

Since we're talking battalions and regiments, how about the Armenian army units who fought against the Nazis alongside the USSR army?
What do you have to say about the thousand upon thousands of casualties (dead or injured) Armenians suffered fighting a war that wasn't even theirs? Do you care to mention the partisan Armenian fighters in France and other European countries who gave their lives to flush Hitler down the drain of history and to send his ideology to hell?

Since you love quotes and numbers, how about taking the 1 out of the "world famous" 819 battalion and talking about the "infamous" 89th Armenian army division that cut 3700 kilometers, liberated 900 areas, 7333 of its soldiers received medals and distinctions, 9 became Soviet Heroes. They even reached Berlin. Or the "infamous" 76th division who crossed 7000 kilometers, liberated 600 areas, gave 21 Soviet Heroes. Or the "infamous" 390th or the "infamous" 261st or the "infamous" 409th or the "infamous" 408th... They fought on all the fronts in the Caucasus, Crimea, Moscow, Odessa, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Japan, etc.

How about mentioning for the sake of objectivity that 103 Armenians became Soviet Heroes, 23 were knighted with the award of Glory, 70,000 received awards and medals. There were about 60 Armenian generals in the ranks of the Soviet army commanders, among who General Baghramian (later became Soviet Marshal, repeatedly Soviet Hero and army commander), Admiral Isakov (Khanferiants), Gen. Babajanian (later field marshal of armored division), Gen. Barseghov, Gen. Galajev, Gen. Martirossian, Gen. Karapetian, Gen. Toumanian and others.

There you go. This was what I would expect the brave people of Armenia should do. On the other hand, I would expect the same type of courage while Stalin was making his move. I am not knowledgable about the history of the Soviets. Regarding the previous question, maybe the Armenian parliament was objecting the cleansing of the Crimean Tatars. I just wanted to learn the history, if you know please share it with me.

Stalin killed 20 million people and you just hammer on this deportation of Tatars. I honestly don’t know what they did or didn’t do and I dealt with this some paragraphs earlier. Rest assured that if I find a source I will share it.

For your info what the Turks were doing during the WWII? Well we were among the few neutral countries. We were accepting the Jews as much as we could that flew from the famous battalions.

I know you were “neutral”, I asked you:
“I wonder how many great soldiers the brave Turks gave in WWII.
I'd like to know how many “Azeri” noses bled during WWII.
I'd like to know the name of a Turkish solder (of whichever variety) from WWII…”
By “of whichever variety” I meant your kin in the USSR. I asked this because I KNOW there isn’t a Turkish solder (of whichever variety) from WWII, who is worthy of kissing the ground Marshal Baghramian's horse dropped its dung.

For the Azeris, Kazakhs, etc. I don't have much info. I guess they fight side by side with the Armenians to stop the NAZI armies.

Idem.

What the neo-nazi thinks about the Battalion? Check it out yourself.

I checked the link. The sorry sod who had posted this is not representative of the Armenian people just as Talaat is not representative of all the Turks. I have never said or thought that all Turks are evil. There are good and bad individuals in all societies.
I have had Turkish friends that I love as brothers and I have known Armenians that I wish their whole family died in a car accident (not seriously but you figure out what I mean)!

[imported_Hellektor]

Hurling babies against rocks, you “can and will never” get it! 8.5

Whatever you do, leave Darius out of it, and I don't give a damn about Alexander the xxxxxx. He burned the magnificent Persepolis and I hate him eternally for that. I’m happy he died at 30 and didn’t enjoy his “glory”.

Again who are you to decide which one was the “good guy”. Actually, it seems it is better to rewrite the history by referring to you.

I don’t say Darius is good or bad. We are beating around the bush a bit too much. Darius is none of your business because you appeared in the region 1500 years after Darius. However, under his rule the Achaemenid Empire became one of the most advanced regions of the time.
Did you know he invented the post? Every time you hold a postal package in your hand just remember Darius.
Did you know he realized a road construction masterpiece that stretched from Sardes in Asia Minor to Shush in Elam called the Imperial Road?
Did you know he widened the waterway between the Nile and the Red Sea, making navigation between Iran and Egypt and other Mediterranean countries possible? An ambitious project that even today seems quite difficult to realize.
Did you know the Memphis temple and Persepolis were built in his time?
Did you know he brought a working monetary order throughout the empire?
Did you know he fought among others five wars with Armenia (19 wars in all) in the first three years of his reign to subdue the countries who had been liberated from the Achaemenid yoke? What’s that to you? I should be angry with him.
By the way, in the trilingual inscription in Baghastana (Bistoon), near Kermanshah, he calls Armenia: Armina in Old Persian, Harmina in Elamite and Urashtu (Urartu) in Accadian.
There is a distinction between Empire and “empire”. Some bring death and destruction others bring mainly civilization. No matter what, you cannot call the Iranians genocidal despite the fact they were persecuting other countries (Armenia the most), all the time.

No I won’t keep the Darius out of the list. He destroyed my house as well.

Idem. I don’t know if he did something to Central Asia, I know what you call your house is my house you stole from us and destroyed a thousand times.

Death, Destruction, Subjugation, Terror that’s what I’m talking about.

Apparently, I do agree with your comments since you quoted me. This is called history.

Idem.

This is what the Armenians did to Anatolians 2600 years ago or some time before it. You think that they came peacefully and asked to join the party?

Delusion, delusion… This is wishful thinking, you cannot equate anything with the babies against rocks hurling ancestors of yours without any proof.

9000 years ago in this lands people had cities. There were empires which made treaties with each other while the Armenians were living as a group of people on top of the mountains hunting for food.

Delusion, delusion, rewriting history, projection, schizophrenia…
90000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 000000… years ago Turks were civilized. As time passed their evolution turned into retrovolution and the Turkish “empires which made treaties”, became illiterate, nomadic cattle herders who couldn’t keep two bricks standing one on top of the other.

(Abdulhamid) There are some people that I know, who loves Darius as well. There are people who loves Alexander the Great. What is suprising about Mexico, there are peoples who damn Hernan Cortes for all the terrible things he has done while worship him at the same time since he brought the Christianity. Don’t you love and hate Khatemi at the same time?

I am living in a non-free society. I cannot talk about this regime. Still, whoever likes Abdulhamid must be a psychopathic hater of humanity.

Anglo Saxons, Jews and Turks always on each other’s side…whatever said by whoever is worthless to me because he trod the same genocidal path of his predecessors, making you responsible for the Armenian Genocide.

Don’t you think you responded a bit selectively? What about the Greeks and French and the Indian in the list?

I meant I didn’t care about the quotations from politicians and I quoted the events that showed why I think of Kemal as a mini Talaat. All those politicians said those things because of their fear if Islam, they thought Kemal would succeed in uprooting Islam from Turkish society. They were all wrong.
Let me tell you that before the Khomeini revolution in Iran, there were women who wore mini skirts in Tehran’s streets. I don’t say this is good or bad for an Islamic country, personally I like it and I am 100% for equality of sexes. I mention this to show you how “westernized” Iranian society had become. Just look at it now! (unless I’m mistaken, I don’t think a woman would dare wear a mini skirt in your EU approved “westernized” Turkey)

This discussion has become so time consuming. I wonder it will serve any purpose. All I can tell you is before you comply with the wishes of your government and deny the Armenian Genocide, without having done the proper research, and only trusting the McFatyan view, you should go and read exactly those books that your government is discrediting unjustly. Then convince yourself that it was genocide.
So go on and read Morgenthau, Lepsius, Toynbee, Dadrian, Chaliand, Ternon, Richard Hovhannessian, Balakian and countless other sources.
You have to watch at least some of the thousands of video taped survivor accounts (most of the interviewees died already and never saw justice).
Yes you have to even go to Western Armenia and talk to the Islamized Armenians if you can afford it. In the meantime you read the Kemal Yalçin book and take care…