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Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

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  • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

    Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
    Many Turks have indeed opened their eyes and minds but they are still by far in the minority. Turkey is still just as deadly a threat to us as it was in 1915.
    There are a great many moderates in the Turkish population who have a positive opinion of Armenians. The music world is an example where there is even a bias in favor Armenians among the musical circles themselves. (The same is true in Azeri musical circles, at least in the generation that saw light prior to the Artsakh war and the dominant fascist Pan-Turkist rhetoric/paradigm). All these can be leveraged to the favor of Armenia/Armenians if there is systematic labor in that direction, and in hindsight, Pres. Sargsyan's gamble yielded some positive results within the Turkish population. The AKP initially showed more tolerance and a slight nudge away from the Pan-Turkism, but now the Armen Ayvazyans are being proven correct. The fascists are the ones with all the levers.
    Last edited by hagopn; 09-25-2013, 01:42 PM.


    • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

      Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
      Would those historical events to be considered from the point of view of archival material also include the Turkish policy of the mass murder at Galippoli of prisoners and unarmed captured or surrendering soldiers? As a guess, I'd say no.
      Those events will be morphed into the opposite story where the Turks were the actual victims..turkish propoganda is sickening.
      Hayastan or Bust.


      • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

        Originally posted by Haykakan View Post
        Those events will be morphed into the opposite story where the Turks were the actual victims..turkish propoganda is sickening.
        Madison Avenue is not as expensive as we may think, but US tax dollars are feeding this machine. Turkish moderates themselves need to be educated about this. The ANC and such are merely preaching to the choir.


        • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?


          Jihad Watch
          Oct 7 2013

          Islamic supremacists never, ever take responsibility for their own
          actions. The Turks are enraged because the Armenians are daring to
          tell the truth about what the Turks continue to deny. "Armenian Church
          to canonize martyrs of genocide. Ankara unhappy," by NAT da Polis
          for Asia News, October 7, spelling and grammar as in the original
          (thanks to C. Cantoni):

          Istanbul (AsiaNews) - In a move that has surprised Turkey , the
          Armenian Church is going to proceed with the canonization of the
          victims of the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the Turkish State in
          1915, using Kurdish laborers for the massacres. The scientifically
          perpetrated genocide by, is described by the Turkish historian Taner
          Akcam as "A shameful act " (the title of his book ) . But the Ankara
          government has never recognized it and rejects the definition of
          " genocide."

          Sources quoted by Turkish newspapers say the canonization will take
          place in 2015, the centenary of the genocide of 1.5 million Armenians
          killed in Asia Minor.

          The main source of this news is ASAM, The research center of Turkey's
          Eurasian strategy , according to which the great synod of the Armenian
          Church was summoned to Yerevan the capital of ' Armenia. There is one
          important fact: for the first time after 400 years - that is, after
          1651 - bishops who came from all over the world attended this synod:
          a real novelty in the history of the Armenian Church.

          The synod - held at the end of September - was attended by the
          Archbishop of Etsmiatzin , (considered the most sacred city for
          Armenians ), the Armenian Archbishop of Lebanon, where there is also
          a large community, which escaped the genocide ; the bishops of the
          United States, Jerusalem , South America, France and the places where
          there are Armenian communities of the Diaspora.

          During the gathering the decision was made to canonize all the victims
          of ' horrific genocide perpetrated by the Ottomans first and then the
          Turks of Kemal Ataturk . The canonization will follow the formula of
          the tradition of the Eastern Churches, which is the proclaiming of
          the saints , stating the name of the place of martyrdom and not the
          names of the individuals.

          The decision of the Armenian synod has shaken Turkey. The President of
          ASAM , Omer Ozkaya , says the decision has political motivations and he
          points out that all the bishops of the Armenian Church gathered for the
          first time after 400 years in order to give maximum visibility to the
          "alleged" (according to the Turkish ) Armenian Genocide , proceeding to
          the canonization of victims of genocide. Omer Ozkaya noted, however,
          that in this way , the Armenians , give another religious , dimension
          to the dispute between Diaspora communities and Turkey.

          Another fact that has not escaped notice is that the synod was
          convened in religious heart of Armenia, Etsimiatzin , which is the
          great religious reference point for Armenians .

          Hayastan or Bust.


          • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?


            FARS News Agency, Iran
            October 29, 2013 Tuesday

            TEHRAN (FNA)- If you are a political journalist, the last place you'd
            like to report about is Turkey from Turkey, the Muslim Brotherhood
            government of fanatic Turkish prime minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan
            has the highest record of journalists behind bars for criticizing
            his way of democracy, a report said.

            The Syrianews said in a report harshly critical of the Turkish
            government that "we have received several inquiries from our readers
            inside Turkey complaining they cannot reach our website while other
            readers who usually use proxy breakers can view it easily, but after
            the complains increased we decided to refer to an online tool to check
            whether known to be highly critical of the heavy
            handed of the embattled and lost Turkish AKP government policies".

            According to Syrianews, here are the results: [groong note: see tables

            "The online tool called Nimsoft Cloud offered by the website
   pings a server or website using a network of
            over 30 monitoring stations worldwide, one of which is based in
            Istanbul, Turkey, as the above image shows and it's the only station
            that returned 'Unknown host:' error message," the
            report said.

            The report quoted Turkish journalist and winner of the International
            Reporter of the Year Award given annually by the National Union of
            Italian Reporters (UNCI) as saying, "'Turkey is the biggest prison
            in Europe for journalists."

            CPJ, the Committee to Protect Journalists, wrote the following
            intro on their website: 'The media environment under Turkish Prime
            Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan remains extremely difficult. Journalists
            continue to be jailed, the government censors sensitive topics, and
            anti-press rhetoric from powerful figures emboldens prosecutors and
            prompts media owners to fire independent voices.' commenting on a
            letter they sent to the Turkish prime minister dated September 16,
            2013 and Hand-delivered via the Turkish Ministry of Justice. (CPJ
            calls on Erdogan to embrace press freedom).

            Wikipedia lists the names of a number of Turkish journalists imprisoned
            by Erdogan for daring to do their job and criticize his government,
            the list can be found here: (List of arrested journalists in Turkey).

            Gezi Park and Taksim protests handling by Erdogan were dark black
            points in the history of extremely peaceful protests against municipal
            decisions that led to the killing of a number of unarmed protesters by
            the same criminal regime that hosts Alqaeda camps on their land. The
            same regime refusing to recognize the massacres of the Armenians last
            century and refusing to repent it.

            "To be honest, it's kind of chilling yet makes us proud at
   to have our site blocked by one of the most hypocrite
            fanatic regimes in the modern days. Isn't it the same regime that is
            the most outspoken against the Syrian state for the latter's cracking
            down on Alqaeda FSA terrorists and their Wahhabi Cannibal Sex Jihad in
            Syria? Maybe Erdogan has some comfort now seeing the Al Saud regime
            in Arabia joining his 'push for democracy' elsewhere than in their
            own countries," the report added.

            The following is a message by prominent German journalist Jurgen
            Elsasser addressing Erdogan, slamming the dictator and caliph wannabe
            for his policies towards Syria, the video clip has English subtitles,
            you may have to open it in YouTube and turn CC on, Hello Erdogan.

            "Go ahead Erdogan, block our website and jail reporters in your
            country, you are exposed beyond repair and your days are numbered,"
            the report concluded.

            Hayastan or Bust.


            • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

              Turkish treasure hunters ravage Armenian graves

              12:11 - 09.11.13

              Unknown treasure hunters in Turkey's Batman province have desecrated
              Armenian graves, Haberler reported.

              Graves belonging to Armenians are said to have appeared under
              treasure-hunters' target recently. After a dam in the vicinities went
              out of order, several graves remained under water. But they became
              visible again after the water disappeared. Profiting by the occasion,
              the treasure hunters reportedly started dismantling the graves with
              special digging machines in search of valuable items which they
              believe might have been buried with the Armenians in the past.

              Armenian News -
              Hayastan or Bust.


              • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                Turkish academia and the Armenian genocide


                Orhan Kemal Cengiz
                December 22, 2013

                Thousands of master’s theses and Ph.D. dissertations in the social sciences are written each year in Turkey. The Higher Education Board (YOK) keeps an electronic database of their topics and titles. A search in the database of dissertations on the Armenian genocide returns a striking result: Only four theses have been written on the issue and, as their titles immediately suggest, they all reflect Turkey’s official position on the massacres.

                The four titles are as follows: “Armenian genocide claims in view of international law,” “The importance of pressure groups, lobby activities within the context of the so-called Armenian genocide,” “Turkish-Armenian relations in history and the impact of Armenian genocide claims on Turkey’s European Union membership process” and “Armenian genocide claims in international law.”

                That is all Turkish universities have been able to produce in terms of theses on the topic of the Armenian genocide. How is this possible? Are there no academics willing to write dissertations contesting Turkey’s official history line and argue, for instance, that the 1915 events were a genocide? Or is there a state mechanism in place that doesn’t leave it up to chance?

                A Dec. 12 report in the bilingual Turkish-Armenian weekly Agos reveals that academics working on dissertations about the Armenian genocide are under the close scrutiny of the Turkish Historical Society (TTK). According to Agos, the TTK has asked YOK for the details of academics studying the Armenian issue and the YOK chairman, in turn, has asked universities to provide that information. A document Agos published indicates that the YOK chairman had asked universities to supply “the names of master’s and doctoral students working on the Armenian problem, the titles of their researches and contact information, in view of making them available to the Turkish Historical Society in the work it conducts.”

                As I mentioned in my previous article for Al-Monitor, various government institutions in Turkey are busy making counter preparations for 2015, the 100th anniversary of the Armenian genocide. The TTK is one of them. The society is likely to have requested the said information from YOK with a view of using it in those preparations.

                When Agos asked the TTK why they needed that information, a TTK official stated that scholarships might be offered to academics working in this realm. Agos then asked whether the TTK would give a scholarship to someone whose thesis qualifies the 1915 events as genocide. The official responded that, since the TTK does not officially recognize the Armenian genocide, providing a scholarship to such a study might not be possible.

                Agos argues that the TTK’s real motive is to control the academia and keep records of those working on the Armenian problem.

                A subsequent report in the Taraf daily backed up Agos’ argument that those studying the Armenian genocide are being secretly profiled. Two former presidents of Istanbul’s Bogazici University, interviewed by Taraf, shed light on how the censorship mechanism works in the academia.

                Ustun Erguder confirmed he had received letters from YOK with requests for information. “During my term as university president, YOK would send such letters, but we would dismiss them as [those requests] had nothing to do with our understanding of academic freedom. That’s something that has been done for years. We had even received letters suggesting we made sure that theses 'supporting Turkish unity' were written. … It is out of the question for me to approve of YOK requests seeking out the names and details of those writing theses on the Armenian problem,” Erguder said.

                Another former Bogazici University president, Ayse Soysal, made the following comments: “I used to receive similar letters from YOK, while I was university president. It was routine. Two types of letters would come from YOK. One would be in the form of [suggestions] that we support studies backing the state’s official view on subject X or subject Y.”

                The insight the two former presidents provide on how the system functions explains why only four dissertations have been written on the Armenian genocide and why all happen to be in line with Turkey’s official view.

                In another article for Al-Monitor, I had written also about how Turkey’s non-Muslims' birth registries were marked with secret codes and how the non-Muslims could not become army officers, judges or policemen. And this latest example — the lack of even one academic thesis contesting Turkey’s official position on the Armenian problem — is another indication that certain taboo realms are besieged by unwritten but stern rules.

                True, the Armenian taboo has been broken in Turkish civil society and intellectual life. Yet, it continues to exist in this or that form in the “official” realm. Thanks to the exposure of practices such as the TTK request for information about academics studying the Armenian problem, we are getting clues on how Turkey’s official theses are being produced and sustained.

                No doubt, the exposed practices represent only part of the whole picture. To understand fully why, how and in what atmosphere Turkey’s official theses remain intact, the known pieces need to be brought together with the pieces that remain beyond our knowledge. Only then will we be able to know how Turkey’s official history theses are able to survive unchanged.
                Plenipotentiary meow!


                • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                  Conclusion ... turgs cannot behave and tolerate ,its not meant to be that way ...starting from first republic is build on basis of hate and turkey only for mongols....roots from witch they come from...
                  You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions.


                  • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?


                    Jan 30 2014

                    Author: Orhan Kemal Cengiz
                    Posted January 30, 2014

                    Sevan Nisanyan, a Turkish citizen of Armenian origin born in 1956,
                    is without doubt one of the most colorful personalities in Turkish
                    intellectual life. In the book Wrong Republic, he wrote about
                    questioning the "Ataturk taboo" in Turkey, arousing the anger of
                    secular-nationalist Turks. He outraged religious circles with his
                    criticism of Muslim beliefs, has infuriated feminists and leftists
                    and never hesitates to speak bluntly about the Armenian genocide.

                    Nisanyan is now in the first month of a two-year prison term in
                    Torbali, Izmir province. Ostensibly, Nisanyan is in prison not
                    for his contrarian views or identity, but because of "construction
                    infractions." Is this really the case? Why did only Nisanyan end up in
                    jail for building in an enviroment of rampant illegal construction? Is
                    his jail term really to punish his contrarian views?

                    This all began in 1995, when Nisanyan moved to the village of Sirince,
                    near the Selcuk township, in Izmir province. It was a small village
                    no one had heard of before Nisanyan moved in and began to fix the
                    roads, restore the crumbling houses and open small, charming bed
                    and breakfasts.

                    Today, however, according to figures provided by Nisanyan's ex-wife,
                    Mujde Tonbekici, Sirince has become a major destination, attracting
                    some 600,000 to 800,000 foreign and local tourists a year. Shortly
                    after settling in Sirince, Nisanyan won the hearts of the local
                    population with his contributions to the village. But all the
                    construction and restoration work encountered serious bureaucratic
                    barriers, and in 2001, he was sentenced to 10 months in jail for
                    construction-related infractions.

                    According to officials, their investigations of Nisanyan's
                    construction activities were legally justified. Sirince is subject to
                    government-imposed construction restrictions, but for some reason,
                    the "transition-period construction regulations" issued for areas
                    subject to such restrictions were never presented for Sirince.

                    As a result, Nisanyan has been sentenced to a two-year prison term for
                    installing a small, 40-square-meter shed on his own land. Dozens of
                    cases have been brought against Nisanyan for unpermitted maintenance,
                    repair and construction. If all of these cases end in prison terms,
                    Nisanyan could well spend the rest of his life in jail.

                    Nisanyan's former wife spoke about the process that led to Nisanyan
                    being in prison: "Sirince is a restricted construction zone. That is
                    why you can't build what you want. This is fine. But in the law, there
                    is a clause that says the government has to issue transition-period
                    construction regulations until the final construction-zoning plan is
                    made. This is to allow you to do construction legally. But look, it
                    has been thirty years, and we still don't have the transition-period
                    guidelines or the final construction plan. We ran into big problems
                    because of that. We couldn't carry out our construction. We visited
                    the government agency in charge 50 times, but couldn't get the
                    permits. Sevan, being a man who can't sit idle, went after them
                    persistently, but at the end declared, 'That's it,' and started
                    to build."

                    Nisanyan thinks the real targets of his prison sentence are his
                    identity and opinions. He was bitter and angry before he went to
                    prison. He expressed his sentiments to Turkish journalist Hasan Cemal:
                    "All my life -- with my books, with my work in the village -- I tried
                    to do something good for the people. What did I get in return? From
                    the state, I always got suspicion, enmity and despotism. I always had
                    to deal with ethnic and political prejudices, with disrespect and
                    contempt. Five governments, eight sub-governors -- [I] don't know
                    how many ministers and governors changed. Every once in a while,
                    we get a couple of decent people and high hopes. But in the end,
                    nothing changes."

                    Nisanyan was more blunt in an earlier interview with Agos, expressing
                    his views about the true motivation behind his prison sentence: "It is
                    obvious that the fact that I am Armenian plays a role in this process.

                    In Turkey, anyone who goes out of the box is punished, even if your
                    last name is [that of a] 'true Turk.' If you do something out of
                    the box, you get punished. On top of that, if you are Armenian,
                    your punishment is magnified."

                    There are many who think that Nisanyan was sentenced to prison not
                    because of construction infractions, but because of his views that
                    defy a number of taboos in Turkey. A local and international petition
                    campaign for his release states the following:

                    Sevan Nisanyan is being punished for doing illegal construction on
                    his own land in Turkey, which is a haven for illegal construction, and
                    is now incarcerated at Izmir-Torbali prison, since Jan. 2. Moreover,
                    instead of being awarded a Nobel Prize for architecture for what
                    he created in Sirince, he faces about 50 years of prison terms for
                    17 cases brought against him. In fact, everybody knows that the
                    case against Sevan Nisanyan has nothing to do with construction
                    infractions. He is being punished for his history and literary work
                    challenging the official ideology.

                    Another petition campaign asserts that the real reason for Nisanyan's
                    prison term are his views on Islam:

                    We denounce the injustice of ... years of prison terms slapped on Sevan
                    Nisanyan for a village tenement he built on his own land. The sentence
                    given to Sevan Nisanyan, who turned Sirince into a paradise of culture
                    and tourism in our country, which is a nirvana for illegal construction
                    and crooked urbanization, is unjust and disgraceful. We don't believe
                    that the heavy and unjust imprisonment of Nisan Sevanyan is because
                    of construction regulations, when another trial has been going on
                    for 13 and a half months' imprisonment for saying that satirical
                    and denigrating expressions about Islam in a country with a Muslim
                    majority can't be a hate crime. The sentence handed to Nisanyan is a
                    disgrace that should rattle our conscience and cast shadows on hopes
                    for freedom of thought.

                    In short, there is a sizeable group in Turkey that thinks Nisanyan's
                    going to prison has nothing to do with infractions of construction

                    The corruption investigations launched against the government (that are
                    not going anywhere because of heavy pressure) have revealed illegally
                    issued construction permits amounting to millions of dollars in
                    Istanbul, making it a tragicomedy that an Armenian who built a small
                    shed on his own land ends up in prison. It is a reality that one must
                    think hard about to understand Turkey.

                    Hayastan or Bust.


                    • Re: Can Turkey Learn Tolerance?

                      Originally posted by bell-the-cat View Post
                      Would those historical events to be considered from the point of view of archival material also include the Turkish policy of the mass murder at Galippoli of prisoners and unarmed captured or surrendering soldiers? As a guess, I'd say no.
                      Gallipoli myths are still going strong in New Zealand and Australia. They don't teach about the Armenian Genocide in New Zealand and Australian schools, which is probably why Turkey likes Australia and New Zealand so much.