Chief Rabbi of Israel Recognizes the Armenian Genocide

[phantom]

I only have time to respond to quickly respond to your "calling out" the way I characterize Israel's actions regarding the Armenian Genocide.

I chose my words very carefully, as you might imagine. Why do I not call them out as denying the Genocide, rather I say that they do not officially acknowledge the Genocide? Because Turkey points to them and the U.S. as proof that there was no Genocide. Listen to Turkish arguments once in a while, and you'll note that one of their main defenses is that they are not the only deniers, that the U.S. and Israel support them in this denial, which they say gives their position credibility. But both those Turks and you are wrong. Israel does not "deny" the Armenian Genocide. They simply remain silent officially. And behind the scenes, AIPAC takes an active role in making sure that the U.S. does not acknowledge the Genocide, in essense, AIPAC denies the Genocide. This is a morally bankrupt and perverse policy, but it's done to appease the perpetrator of the crime, which is Israel's slavemaster in the middle east. So if I had said that Israel and the U.S. "deny" the Genocide, then that gives Turkey the right to say, hey, we're not the only deniers, the world's only superpower also denies it, and Israel, victims of a Holocaust, also denies it. And that's why I chose my words carefully, and I advise you to do the same.

[1.5 million]

Talking to yourself again Phantom?

[Maggie Simpson]

Israeli Foreign Ministry Questions Veracity of Genocide, Says Proof Needed

February 19, 2002

YEREVAN (Azg) -- The Israeli foreign ministry Monday responded to a diplomatic note sent by its Armenian counterpart last week regarding statements made by Israeli Ambassador to Armenia Rivka Kohen, who said parallels could not be drawn between the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide.

"As Jews and as Israelis we are especially saddened by the deaths and tragedy which occurred between 1915 and 1916. We understand the emotional relevance for both sides and we are aware that there have been a large number of victims and the plight of the Armenians," said the Israeli foreign ministry.

"This issue requires extensive research by a wide spectrum of people and academic dialogue that are based on testimony and proof," added the Israeli foreign ministry.

Israel asserted that the Holocaust was a singular event in human history and was premeditated against the Jews.

"Israel recognizes the tragedy of the Armenians and the plight of the Armenian people. Nevertheless, the events cannot be compared to genocide, and that does not in any way diminish the magnitude of the tragedy," outlined the Israeli foreign ministry while underlining its warm relations with Turkey.

The Foreign Ministry of Armenia noted protest against the Foreign Ministry of Israel in connection with the re-cent statement of Israel's Ambassador Rivki Kohen's statement concerning the Armenian Genocide.

In the note of the protest, the Foreign Ministry Public Relations department said that Armenia considers any at-tempt of rejecting or belittling the significance of the Armenian Genocide as inadmissible, regardless of the mo-tivation. Armenia has never thought of drawing parallels between the Armenian Genocide and the Jewish Holo-caust, considering any crime against the human race "unique" with its political, legal, historical, and moral con-sequences.

Armenian Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Dzyunik Aghajanian said on Thursday that an Armenian delegation led by Foreign Minister Oskanian was to pay a visit to Israel, which Kohen said was to give a boost to devel-opment of bilateral economic relations was not planned.

Spokeswoman Aghajanian commented that "at this moment no visit on the level of foreign affairs minister is planned to Israel, and no delegation is expected form Israel to Armenia."

http://groong.usc.edu/news/msg44315.html

[Maggie Simpson]

Armenian Genocide Remembered in israel with Vandalism

Jerusalem Post
In Jerusalem

Friday, 3 May 2002 A Perplexing Indifference

Last week, Armenians around the world commemorated the genocide of their people. Few Israelis took notice.

By Corinna da Fonseca-Wollhei

Jerusalemite George Hintlian faces an uphill struggle to make others remember. Last week, he joined hundreds in a procession to a local cemetery. But there were few graves at which to mourn. April 24 is the day Armenians remember their 1.5 million dead, killed on death marches in what Armenians say was the first genocide of the 20th Century.

Few Israelis know what the day signifies. No Knesset member attended the ceremony in St. James' Cathedral in the Armenian Quarter of the Old City. There were no documentaries on Israeli television. Maps and pictures pasted on walls in the Quarter detailing the killings have been torn down or defaced.




Ignorance or indifference? Both, according to Hintlian, a historian of the Armenian people and child of survivors.

"Nobody knows about the Armenian genocide because until 1990, our country, Armenia was inside the Soviet Union, where ethnic and religious minorities were repressed. Also, Turkey was a member of NATO, and in the context of the Cold War it was considered impolite to bring up the Armenian issue."

Turkey has consistently played down the figures of Armenians killed, and has denied that there was a premeditated plan to extinguish the Christian minority in Turkey. According to the official Turkish line, Christians and Muslims alike lost their lives in civil unrest in the context of WWI.

According to the Armenians, when Turkey went to war against Russia, Armenians all over the country- but particularly near the Russian border-were accused of sympathizing with the enemy and were "deported," ostensibly to southern areas of the Ottoman Empire. But effectively, the deportations were death marches, in which hundreds of thousands men, women and children died of disease and starvation in the Syrian desert, or were slaughtered along the way by Turkish military police and their henchmen.

The international community's indifference was decried even by contemporaries such as Henry Morgenthau, then the American Ambassador to Turkey, Viscount Gladstone, and Winston Churchill. Adolf Hitler referred to the Armenian genocide on a number of occasions. In one speech in 1939, in which he spoke of his plan to "exterminate without mercy or pity men, women and children belonging to the Polish-speaking race", he said, "after all, who remembers today the extermination of the Armenians?"

Armenian remembrance day was first commemorated in 1965, 50 years after the beginning of the deportations. April 24 was the Armenian Kristallnacht. That night in 1915, Turkish police rounded up, imprisoned and executed Armenian intellectuals- journalists, doctors, lawyers and priests - across the country. Sine 1965, Armenians have pushed for greater awareness and recognition of their people's sufferings, with some success. About a dozen Western countries now recognize the Armenian genocide. Many have official ceremonies on April 24.

In February of this year, the European Parliament followed suit, expressing the hope that Turkey will face up to its responsibility - but stopping short of making Turkey's accession to the European Union dependent on recognition, let alone remorse.

In Israel, two factors contribute to burying the Armenian issue. One is the country's strategically vital relations with Turkey, its only strong Muslim ally in the region. The second, more elusive, is a largely unspoken concern that recognition of the Armenian "genocide" will detract from the uniqueness, and horror, of the Holocaust.

Earlier this month, when Turkish prime minister Bulent Ecevit accused Israel of carrying out a "genocide" against the Palestinian population, relations between the two countries turned chilly. Ecevit was rebuked not only by Israel, but also by Turkish politicians who underlined Israel's continued help with the "Armenian question."

Jewish-American lobbies protested Ecevit's comments by pointing to their staunch support of Turkey in the face of Armenian claims of genocide. Turkey's foreign minister Ismail Cem told Turkish television that "especially in the US, the Jewish lobby has always supported Turkey against any injustices that have been made or that were going to be made."

Turkish sensitivities aside, Israel has always been reluctant to use the term "genocide" to refer to anything but the Holocaust. Earlier this year, Rivka Kohen, the Israeli ambassador to Armenia, upset Armenians by questioning the term in relation to deportations of Armenians in WWI. The Israeli foreign ministry, responding to an angry diplomatic note from its Armenian counterpart, reinforced Kohen's position.

"Israel recognizes the tragedy of the Armenians and the plight of the Armenian people," it read. "Nevertheless, the events cannot be compared to genocide, and that does not in any way diminish the magnitude of the tragedy... This issue requires extensive research by a wide spectrum of people and academic dialogue that is based on testimony and proof."

Hintlian believes there is solid proof of genocide, and points out that many of the contemporary accounts of deportations and massacres come from foreign diplomats who were stationed across Turkey. Some of the most shocking photos of atrocities - piles of corpses, half naked Armenian women being tormented by uniformed Turks, Turkish officers proudly posing with severed heads - were taken by a German officer. Germany was Turkey's ally at the time, and officially approved the policy of "deportation."

"The Armenian genocide is different from the Holocaust," says Hintlian, "but there are similarities. Both were planned, both were premeditated, both happened when a particular political party came to power. In both cases it was an inner cabinet decision. These are the common factors. The Armenian genocide didn't't happen for racial reasons, it didn't't happen for ideological reasons - it happened for political reasons."

Hintlian is not alone in denouncing Israel's ostrich-like attitude to the Armenian issue. Two years ago, then- education minister Yossi Sarid attended the remembrance ceremony and pledged that the Armenian genocide would be taught in Israeli schools as part of the history curriculum. His comments drew criticism at the time, much of it from colleagues in the Israeli government. His plan never saw the light.

Yair Auron of the Kibbutzim College of Education in Tel Aviv designed a syllabus for teaching the genocide of the Armenians and the persecution of gypsies in World War II to Israeli high-school students. His book, The Banality of Indifference, examines Jewish attitudes to the Armenian genocide. A number of Israeli intellectuals, including Yad Vashem's Yehuda Baur and Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel, have spoken out against the apparent conspiracy of silence.

Some argue that precisely because the Holocaust is unique, it is imperative to study other genocides as well. Yet the Armenian tragedy has sparked more than indifference in some. In the past five years, maps of the Armenian genocide with pictures of victims have been vandalized and torn down from walls in the Quarter. Hintlian says he saw people- young and old- tearing down posters in broad daylight. One yeshiva student he caught in the act told him he was offended by the photographs of naked bodies on the posters. Another poster had "not true" scrawled over it.

Ultimately, though, Armenians are less concerned with Israel than with Turkey. "My problem is with the Turks," says Hintlian. "And it is really a spiritual and intellectual problem. What I would like is not recognition- I don't need a Turk to be thinking about this - but, for God's sake, a feeling of regret...! The people suffered need not recognition, but dialogue. What I need first of all is a dialogue with a Turkish intellectual. And then I need reconciliation. My healing will come only from such dialogue. For now, we are stuck in a monologue. And that is the painful part."

At 94, Sultanik Manougian has lost her eyesight and much of her hearing, but her memory remains sharp. "I remember everything as if it happened yesterday." She says in clear, if halting, English." I was born in Telas. I was seven years old when I was expelled from my home. When the war broke out (in 1915), the Turkish government took all the men, intellectuals, doctors, lawyers, and killed them. They were killed with knives, axes, beatings. Then all the others had to leave. My mother kissed the door of our home - it was a very nice house we had, with a big garden.

"The Turks had sent everyone letters saying either change your religion or leave. One or two families converted. Everybody else was evicted. It was a very hot summer, dust everywhere. We had to walk, and on either side there were gendarmes, they would beat us. We saw bodies by the side of the road. When darkness fell on the first day, we saw we were in the same place we had been in hours before. They would take us in circles like that for days. For 10 days we walked in the desert. People remained on the ground from hunger, thirst. We reached xxxanti and there was some water, dirty water, with buffalos and cows standing in it. We drank it anyway. Then I became very ill. Again, we had to walk."

In the next town they reached, Manougian was saved by an uncle who worked for the Baghdad railway and was able to intercede on her behalf with the Turks. Her mother pleaded with the man to also save her little boy who was four, but the Turkish police said boys had to stay in the march. Manougian, who had contracted typhoid from the filthy water she had drunk, remained in xxxanti for the remainder of the war. Eventually, via Istanbul and Beirut, she came to Jerusalem where she continues to live inside the walls of the Armenian convent. Out of 20 members of her family, only two others survived. All the rest died in the desert.

When Manougian hears that her story will be printed in the Jerusalem Post - more than 50 years after the newspaper changed its name she still calls it the Palestine Post - she gets agitated. Do we have to use her name? Could we perhaps use a pseudonym instead? "You cannot print what I said about the Turks. They will come and kill me!" Eighty-seven years later, the fear of persecution and death is still raw.

This year, the Sunday following Armenian remembrance day was Palm Sunday in the Armenian church calendar. Manougian was too frail to attend the mass in St. James' Cathedral, a mixture of religious ceremony and social happening.

In the semi-darkness of the church, the silver and brass oil lamps, blue-and-white tiled columns, and deep red rugs compete to catch the few shafts of light that come in through the small windows. The walls of the church were covered in an eclectic collection of colorful curtains, some hundreds of years old, many richly embroidered in silver and gold thread.

At the climax of the ceremony, dozens of children pull open the curtains to symbolize the opening of the gates of Jerusalem for Jesus' entry. Armenian families as far afield as California or Holland pay handsome donations to the church for the privilege of having a curtain pulled open in their name. Prices start at a couple of hundred dollars and go up to $1,000 for the massive curtain at the center of the church. This year, Sultanik Manougian had delved deep in her pocket for the honor of having her name read out first. The main curtain was drawn in memory of her husband, who died last year.

But for the 94-year old survivor, memory is not a luxury. It is a vital part of her being.

-CdFW

[Chilingirian]

"the events cannot be compared to genocide"

This statement above by the israeli Ambassador to Armenia and I don't see how anyone can call that a "lack of acknowledgment" or "ignoring" the genocide. In case you still don't get it or are thinking of trying that "It's only her personal opinion" BS.

Main Entry: am·bas·sa·dor
Function: noun
Pronunciation: am-'ba-s&-d&r, &m-, im-, -"do r, -'bas-d&r
Etymology: Middle English ambassadour, from Middle French ambassadeur, ultimately of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German ambaht service
1 : an official envoy ; especially : a diplomatic agent of the highest rank accredited to a foreign government or sovereign as the resident representative of his own government or sovereign or appointed for a special and often temporary diplomatic assignment
2 a : an authorized representative or messenger b : an unofficial representative <traveling abroad as ambassadors of goodwill>

Don't bother trying to nit pick with 2b either because there was nothing of "goodwill" in what she said. PLUS, the isreali foreign ministry fully supported her and made no apologies.

While Phantom claims: "Israel's lack of acknowledgment of the Armenian Genocide"

"Israel's absurd and disgusting policy of ignoring the first Genocide of the 20th century."

Both of which are absolutely false!

[Krokodil]

Wow! What a thread. By the way, I was wholy ignorant of the Peres' statement or Israel in regards to this in general. I have to admit that I'm somewhat taken with the banned guy's postings. He seems very passionate about the topic. I'd like to see phantom respond to him.

Much of my own perception is pretty shaken here. I don't really know what to think.

[phantom]

Here's my take on this whole thing.

First, control over media outlets by those who support and protect Israel is too strong to fight. Therefore, there is no point in yelling and screaming that Israel is a denialist nation, and that Jews are behind denial of the Genocide. If you do that, you will be branded an anti-semite, and then nobody will listen to a thing you say ever again. Furthermore, there are far too many examples of Jewish support for our cause, and that will be used extensively against anyone who tries to brand Jews as deniers. So, anyone who calls Jews deniers will not only be branded an anti-semite, but will be torn apart in the media as an ungrateful anti-semite.

Second, the way to get Jews to accept and stop denying the Genocide is not by blaming them for denying it in the first place. That puts us immediately in an adversarial position against them, and frankly, we are no match for such a battle. Any Armenian who thinks that we can win an information war against Israel is living in a fantasy world. We will end up on the same pages as the Palestinians, which is not somewhere we want to be. Instead, I propose that we shame and guilt the Jews into submission. We do that by constantly highlighting and acknowledging the humanitarian efforts of those noble and righteous Jews that we love, like Morgenthau, Werfel, Lemkin, Charney, Bauer, etc. etc. (actually, the list is long enough to have a noteworthy Jew every month for the next 10 years). It's hard for the Jews to argue with us when we hammer the point home that these righteous Jews either tried to stop the GENOCIDE against us, or have taken measures to make sure that there is acknowledgment of what happened to us. And each time, we do not fail to mention that the Israeli government shamelessly continues to deny that it happened and that powerful Jewish organizations like AIPAC lobby against recognition. What does this do: (1) it gets the Jewish attention, because we are honoring one of their people; (2) it teaches the Jews about the Armenian Genocide and shows them pictures of what happened to our people that they can relate to; and (3) it reminds the average Jewish person that the Israeli govt. is doing something abhorrant to any sense of morality and righteousness. The reality is that the majority of average Jews, if they knew, would find the actions of the Israeli government and AIPAC to be disgusting. Every Jewish friend or acquaintance that I have, when I tell them about what AIPAC does and what Israel has said, is shocked. By involving the mainstream Jewish population, we can turn the tide against the Israeli state and AIPAC without having to engage in a direct information battle against Israel.

One more point, I think we should be doing this with Turks as well. Again, the theory being that it will be hard for the average Turk to have any animosity against a program that honors one of their own. What are they going to say, that we shouldn't honor a Turk who saved an Armenian life.

So, I don't agree with this head-on battle that some want to wage. It's a losing proposition. There's a Turkish saying: "Esek sikmenin usuli var". Literally translated: "There's the right way to screw a donkey." If we don't consider our problem thoughtfully and carefully, if we don't devise effective and rational plans to overcome our problem, then we are going to end up getting kicked in the balls, just like the one who makes a hurried and rash attempt to screw the donkey from behind.

We have to always remember one thing. We are a small nation. We live in a world with 6 billion people, all with their own problems and issues. Nobody gives a xxxx about us, except us. To jump into the middle of the battle field and expose all of our cards against groups that are far more powerful, is suicide. We have to work quietly and smartly, not like idiot renegades.

[phantom]

Please tell us what is "new" in this failed approach that you suggest??? Don't you think that's what Armenians have been doing all along, without much success I might add?

Really, how have we been doing this all along? What recognition programs have we made and publicized for recognizing righteous Jews or Turks?

[Gavur]

Tushe!

[phantom]

Tushe indeed. I can still hear all the sucking noises of all the clowns throughout the years that gush and drool every time any of the chosen decides to give them the time of day. I can still see all of the waving of this one or that one, "See, see...." Just because one here and one there gives the least semblance of "support."

Just look at the disgusting sucky letter written in response to the documentary.


It all amounts to NOTHING especially in comparison to the colossal damage they have done.

Why do you feel entitled to be given any time of day or anything else by anyone? Do you think anyone wanted to give the Jews the time of day? Nobody gives a xxxx about them, and nobody gives a xxxx about us. Everything the "chosen" have, they took by whatever means they had available; sometimes with outright and open fighting, but mostly by behind-the-scenes analysis and strategy, some might call it scheming. But what's a small and otherwise powerless group to do. I'm advocating that we do the same, because open warfare, even open information warfare, will lead to defeat.