Dashnaks Insist On Territorial Claims To Turkey

[Krunchy]

Krunchy, the Holocaust is a historical event that pertains not only to Jews but to many other minorities as well. It is noteworthy not because it accounts for the suffering of a minority, but because it was a Genocide.

If you read what I said, I said there was a holocaust of Slavs and Europeans. For example, twenty-seven million Russians died. Hardly a minority, except in the minds of the ill-informed.

[Kharpert]

I know, Krunchy. Targeted victims of the Holocaust include Jews, Slavs, Homosexuals, Gypsies, Disabled people, Jehova's Witnesses and, to a certain extent, Blacks and Asians. The point I'm trying to make is that when people say "the Holocaust", they are usually referring to that event in history when those groups became victims of Genocide. It's not a matter of who suffered less or more, it's a matter of who was singled out and slaughtered in acts of Genocide.

[1.5 million]

Krunchy - if your moniker was "neandertal" - or even "toad" - it would be a diservice/insult to those otherwise named.

[Kharpert]

the Germans did not target the jews for extermination.

Incorrect.

The Jews who died under German control mostly died of starvation and disease to the severe conditions of Nazi concentration camps. Auschwitz is the most salient example, not to forget Belzec, Chelmno, Majdanek, Maly Trostenets, Sobibór and Treblinka II. Sebastian Haffner published the analysis in 1978 that Hitler from December 1941 accepted the failure of his goal to dominate Europe forever on his declaration of war against the United States, but that his withdrawal and apparent calm thereafter was sustained by the achievement of his second goal—the extermination of the Jews. Anyone who's read so much as a summary of Mein Kampff knows of the virulent anti-semetic rhetoric found in it; it was clear that Adolf Hitler completely supported the extermination of the Jews, although he delegated the task to the rest of his Nazi officers, particularly the SS.

Nazi war cries were usually "When Jewish blood drips off the blade" and the rallying cry "Juda verrecke" (Perish the Jew). Jewish racism and isolation soon came about with the Nuremburg laws and the "Jude" stars that Jews were forced to wear. Soon after Jews were barred from any professional jobs, and at the start of the war the extermination policy was in effect.

So, no. Nazi Germany had blamed the Jews for "tainting" their Aryan nation and targeted them for extermination.

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A good source of Holocaust information is here, and if you feel the need to challenge the basis of the Holocaust please start a new thread.

[phantom]

Funny thing is, the Germans did not target the jews for extermination. The jews who died under German control mostly died of starvation and disease due to the severe conditions with the allied bombing near the end of the war.

Most of the jews who were deliberately killed were killed in the Baltic states, by Ustashe Croats, by Bosnian muslims...don't forget that and in the Ukraine.

That sounds just like what the Turks say about the destruction of our ancestors. It was starvation and disease, and most of us were killed by bandits and kurds, not Turks.

[Kharpert]

It's pathetic how one can deny the institutionalized murder of the minorities I mentioned considering that the evidence is so strong. People can still smell burning flesh moldering in decommissioned Nazi death camps.

[1.5 million]

That sounds just like what the Turks say about the destruction of our ancestors. It was starvation and disease, and most of us were killed by bandits and kurds, not Turks.

exactly - and this is one of the Turks that thinks to call me a non-Armenian.

Yeah - just starvation and disease....Germans/Turks had nothing to do with it....Germans/Turks suffered too....Jews/Armenians were the cause...brought about their own destruction....stabbed 'em in the back...etc

[Kharpert]

"cash cow industry propaganda machine?" What a pointless phrase.

Do you consider the International Association of Genocide Scholars a "cash cow industry propaganda machine"? They accept the Holocaust as historical fact.

The list of authors and scholars on the Holocaust includes, but is not limited to, Donald L Niewyk, Ian Hanxxxx, Sybil Milton, Donald Kendrick, Henry Friedlander, Richard Lukas, Ihor Karmenetsky, Richard Plant, Yisrael Gutman, Michael Berenbaum, Raul Hilberg, Franciszek Piper, Yehuda Baur, and Heinz Heger.

Holocaust of non-Jews
"The Holocaust: Definition and Preliminary Discussion
Euthanasia and Eugenics
Non-Jewish victims of the Holocaust
Jewish response to Holocaust
Blacks under the Nazis
Poles: Victims of the Holocaust
The Holocaust in Hungary
Jasenovac
What diplomats learned about the Holocaust

It's a bad idea to plod stubbornly along with conspiracy theories that sound straight out of the Turkish denial machine. The Holocaust is a very serious and real historical event that has very deep roots in European History and culture. To deny the malicious intent of the Nazis to destroy the minorities that I have mentioned is to buy into the same philosophy of the Turkish Denial Machine. Perhaps you should watch your rhetoric before you accuse others of aligning with TARC.

The analogy stands. The Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust are quite similar, only in a different historical context. The eight stages of genocide apply to both: Classification, Symbolization, Dehumanization, Organization, Polarization, Identification, Extermination, and Denial. The Armenians and Jews are both victims of Genocide. That is a fact, whether you care about Jews or not.

[Kharpert]

Oh, please.

P. Samuel Foner is the equivalent of tallarmeniantale's Samuel Weens. This is the only article that is ever credited under his name, lest that anyone find a biography on him. Now besides the fact that this article is written by a nonentity...

There have been claims by Holocaust deniers that the gas chambers built to massacre civilians never existed, and the structures identified as gas chambers actually served other purposes. However, the more common argument has been to claim that gas was not used to murder Jews and other victims, and that many gas chambers were also built after the war just for show. An often-quoted document advancing this theory is the "Leuchter Report" by Fred A. Leuchter, a paper stating that no traces of cyanide were found when he examined samples taken from one of the Auschwitz gas chambers in 1988. This paper is used to further a common debating tactic, namely the suggestion that because no traces of cyanide were found in 1988, then no cyanide was used at all in Auschwitz, over forty years earlier.

The cyanide used in Auschwitz and other extermination camps was created through activation of the pesticide Zyklon-B, which was used to exterminate prisoners by the thousands. Further investigation into the death camps revealed that the most difficult part of the operation was the disposal of thousands of corpses after the executions had taken place; this required the construction of huge ovens to cremate the corpses.

Another piece of evidence Holocaust deniers frequently cite is the question of what happened to the ash after the bodies were cremated. Some speculate that some ash could have been used in fertilization experiments in crop fields, by the Germans.

Furthermore, deniers also claim:

"At Birkenau (part of Auschwitz), on the site of the so-called gas chamber and incinerator, there is not nearly enough rubble to represent the remains of a building that size."

Opponents counter that this argument is not valid. After liberation, they note, the local Polish farming population returned, and, needing materials to rebuild houses before winter, removed large amounts of re-usable bricks from the ruins. There is by the crematorium site a big pile of waste that the salvagers threw aside as they searched for usable bricks.

The Institute for Historical Review publicly offered a reward of $50,000 for verifiable "proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz." Mel Mermelstein, a survivor of Auschwitz, submitted proof, which was then ignored. He then sued IHR and won the $50,000 reward, plus $40,000 in damages for personal suffering. Revisionists have subsequently claimed that the proof offered by Mermelstein was "never released to the public," implying that it had been sealed by the court or otherwise kept secret.

Nonetheless, Holocaust deniers still question the use of gas chambers in spite of overwhelming evidence. Arno Mayer stated in Why Did the Heavens Not Darken?: "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once rare and unreliable."

Gassing as a "remedy" for Jews
Refuting the Leuchter report

A report of extermination delivered to the Fuhrer himself:



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It surprises me that anyone who believes the Holocaust of World War II would choose to single off the Jews as having false claims. Not only is it ridiculous that the Nazis would exterminate "impure" Christians while ignoring "impure" Jews, it's all over in published literature that the highest level of contempt for the Nazis was against the Jews. (Mein Kampff, anyone?) If anyone believes that the Nazis would take the trouble to exterminate Poles, Roman Catholics, Jehova's Witnesses, or homosexuals, there is every reason in the world to believe that Jews would also be high priority on Nazi extermination lists.

I think the real reason that people deny the Jewish part of the Holocaust is because they are upset with Zionism. Unfortunately, these are the people that don't understand not even half of all Jews are Zionist. Whoever believes that all Jews are Zionist needs to go back and read the thread through.

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Allow me to reiterate: the first Genocide of the 20th century is the Armenian Genocide, the atrocities committed against the Armenian people of the Ottoman Empire during W.W.I. The second Genocide of the 20th century is commonly refered to as the Holocaust, which was the Nazi's policy of extermination of all minorities considered to be "impure", including Jews, Slavs, Homosexuals, Gypsies, Disabled people, Jehovah's Witnesses and, to a certain extent, Blacks and Asians.

Again I will say, that both Armenians and Jews have been victims of Genocide.

[Krunchy]

Well I've never praised Peres - show me where I did - nor have I called Armenians (as a group) stupid - quite the contrary - all this is hersay & BS - and my example of denying the theory of evolution being like denying the Genocide had a deliberatly narrow/specific/application - that is denial of something that has been everwhelmingly factualy proven. I've never been banned from anywhere for "hate rhetoric" - and only ever banned one place for not backing down from an a-hole like one of you - and I would do the same again - as I will here. Serbs (Milosovic & Co.) are genociders who deserve to be punished - the evidence for their crimes is overwhelming.

You know full well that the particular forum in question was closed down, largely due to your efforts. Does this sound familiar: "Moderated mode, NOW!"