Hello -- I have a question

[Hovik]

Forum rules on language

Turq, Hitite,

Please refrain from posting in any language other than English or Armenian...

Hovik

P.S. Hitite this is the second time I'm asking you...

[Tongue]

Yes Hitite, this is our second warning. Obey the rules!

Can you please change your avatar and signature.. it's identical to Hovik's. Do it, or I'll do it for you.

[1.5 million]

You fail to understand that trying to get "real" history into a Turks head is not going to change anything because he is too paranoid to believe an Armenian or any other foreigner. He may never ever believe in what he will always call 'your version of history'. However what he can do is to be at peace with you but that wont happen if you word bash him to death. That will just make him more dangerous and your nick does suggest they can be dangerous. Same for an Armenian. Dont just jump in now and say something stupid like "there can be no peace before the Turkish Government accepts the A.G." I am talking about individuals. Even if they do not agree on what happened 90 years ago they still can come to respect eachother. It will sound like a huge cliché but we Turks and Armenians focus so much on our differences that it hurts now. My subjective view is that Armenians hate Turks more than vice versa and I know many of you are saying "yeah... I wonder why". There is so much in common between Anatolain Turks and Armenians that all this IMO going to waste. Armenians in my very sincere opinion are waisting their time trying to get Fuji, New Zealand and the USA parliaments to recognize the A.G. and Turks are just doing the same trying to ward off what they call allegations through a few flimsy historians. 1.5... how many 90 years more are you willing to wait? And if you are willing to wait what exactly are you waiting for?

Can you really know that I "fail to understand"? Can you perhaps imagine that I can see this issue from more perspectives then you might think? Don't you realize that I am already far beyond what you say here - that I do have Turkish frineds and have made the effort to understand these issues far beyond the poster board level...yeah...even if in fact I repond flippantly to such as i see it from the other side. If you bothered to actually read some of my serious posts and reposts of conversations and such I have had with (a great many) other Turks ion the past - you might get an appreciation for just how in depth and holistically I have approached this issue in the past and how I have been involved in this issue on levels far beyond what commonly passes for intellignet discussion in thos forum - and most others - between Armenians and Turks. And don't address to me the failings of the Armenian diapora as if I am a partner to such...are you really so blind? I am far beyond where you are pegging me at...and far beyond where you are at in your understanding of these issues. I'm not saying that you might not be able to bring something of value here - in fact I often encourage various Turks to do just that - however more often then not I am highly disapointed. And frankly I can't say that you have ever said much that stands out in my mind as being particularly noteworthy - what can I say.

[hitite]

Turq, Hitite,

Please refrain from posting in any language other than English or Armenian...

Hovik

P.S. Hitite this is the second time I'm asking you...

Sorry Hovik. Wont do it again. But I really dont remember being asked before.

[hitite]

Can you really know that I "fail to understand"? Can you perhaps imagine that I can see this issue from more perspectives then you might think? Don't you realize that I am already far beyond what you say here - that I do have Turkish frineds and have made the effort to understand these issues far beyond the poster board level...yeah...even if in fact I repond flippantly to such as i see it from the other side. If you bothered to actually read some of my serious posts and reposts of conversations and such I have had with (a great many) other Turks ion the past - you might get an appreciation for just how in depth and holistically I have approached this issue in the past and how I have been involved in this issue on levels far beyond what commonly passes for intellignet discussion in thos forum - and most others - between Armenians and Turks. And don't address to me the failings of the Armenian diapora as if I am a partner to such...are you really so blind? I am far beyond where you are pegging me at...and far beyond where you are at in your understanding of these issues. I'm not saying that you might not be able to bring something of value here - in fact I often encourage various Turks to do just that - however more often then not I am highly disapointed. And frankly I can't say that you have ever said much that stands out in my mind as being particularly noteworthy - what can I say.

Would it have been noteworthy if I had told you that the Ittihad and Terraki were not Turks but martians in disguise? The main focus of my more serious posts has been about how I see a solution to the problem. However I fail to see you ever offering one.

I must admit my post #90 actually was directed at the "panel" rather than you personally. Sorry for the misdirection.

[imported_Hellektor]

Behcet Kardes

This is the hardest part, the diasporans are individuals, they might be represented by lobbying groups but not in a sense like they are represented by a country, this was the case for decases upuntil Armenia is founded but a country which need lots of witness to call it a country. As I understand being stateless makes diasporans more antagonistic towards Turks and Turkey. They feel like they are individually (c9ntinously)effected by Turkish politics, nothing to "save" them themselves, so everyone of them developing their own solution on this.


At this juncture Turkey should understand this and play it carefully,try to find ways first, ways to diminish the influence of diasporan groups over Armenia, and find ways directly to communicate to ordinary Armenian in diaspora, if Turkey cant comminicate to ordinary people the hardliners can easily sell their ideals and conspiracy theories. In short find ways to diminish this chronic mistrust between us and them.

The diasporans are the descendants of the Armenian Genocide therefore, they are also victims of the Genocide. The dead died, the living suffered their entire lives without seeing justice, you hypocrite.

[ScythianVizier]

This Armenian site ( http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/ ) claims that there are 2,080,000 Armenians living in Turkey, is there something wrong with the number, or is it intentional?

http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/followup/population.html

[imported_Hellektor]

This Armenian site ( http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/ ) claims that there are 2,080,000 Armenians living in Turkey, is there something wrong with the number, or is it intentional?

http://www.armeniadiaspora.com/followup/population.html

We cannot be sure of the numbers.
The reality is there are something from several hundreds of thousands to 1.7 million turkified or secret Armenians in occupied Armenia.
Some of them speak Armenian and are Muslims, some don't speak the language but are secret Christians, some are Turkish Speaking Muslims but have preserved their Armenian cultural roots in their dances, the fact that boys and girls mix and they are not fanatical Muslims and they won't say no to a beer or two!
you can search on Hamshenahyer, Hamshils, Hamshens, etc.

There's no wonder, it's their own homeland for thousands of years.
The Turks, being the minority, have always wanted to understate the number of indigenous peoples in Ottoman Tyranny, especially that of the Armenians, the most numerous of the millets:

Reis Efendi in his Risalesi, the official report for the Ottoman Ministry of Interior, prepared in 1778-1780, wrote that "the Armenians were the most numerous reaya-population in the Ottoman State". In numbers it should lie somewhere between 2.5 to 3 million, since the Greek population at the time must have been over 2 million.

Jean Baptiste Tavernier, who traveled six times in the East in the period of 1632-1668 wrote in his notes that "the land stretching from Tokat to Tabriz is almost exclusively inhabited by Christians and this region used to be part of the Armenian Kingdom...That's why it's not surprising to come across fifty Armenians for every single Muslim".

I have also heard that in the time of Tigran the great the population of Armenia was 5 million. I am not sure about this.

The very fact that the Turks of Turkey are genetically as far removed as their Central Asian ancestors, confirms the fact that the Turks were a minority and forcefully turkified the locals.
You may also have more Armenian/Greek/Assyrian/Eastern European genes than Turkish and you don't even know it.

BTW, it's said that up to 40% of people living in Turkey today don't consider themselves Turks and do not mix with them. As Turkey is getting closer to enter EU, these people will find the courage to be more vocal.

[ScythianVizier]

We cannot be sure of the numbers.
The reality is there are something from several hundreds of thousands to 1.7 million turkified or secret Armenians in occupied Armenia.

In fact, there could be millions of Armenian descendants who now consider themselves as the Turks.However, I dont think that one could label these people as the Armenians since the term Armenian is very much associated with Christianity and the Byzantine (Roman) heritage inherited.

Some of them speak Armenian and are Muslims, some don't speak the language but are secret Christians, some are Turkish Speaking Muslims but have preserved their Armenian cultural roots in their dances, the fact that boys and girls mix and they are not fanatical Muslims and they won't say no to a beer or two! you can search on Hamshenahyer, Hamshils, Hamshens, etc.

I am sure there are muslim Armenian descendants in Turkey, but obviously those people do not keep the Armenian heritage more than the Anatolian customs and traditions blended with the Armenian history, customs and culture. It is a fact that the Armenians lived almost every place in Anatolia, and they pretty much adapted themselves into the Turco-Byzantine-Ottoman culture over time since even some Armenian papers printed back in the 19th Century was in Turkish, but in Armenian alphabet. As for the secretly Christian Armenian Turks, I dont believe that there many of them in Anatolia. However, I believe that some must have kept their historical Christian heritage after converting to Islam.

"A great part of the impartial researchers, observers and travelers state that Armenians lived with Turks in such peace and fraternity that they were called ‘Christian Turks’ (Göyünç 1983; Morgan 1919; Simeon 1608-1619). Moltke’s observations at the beginning of the 19th century offer a nice example on this subject:

“Es ist sehr interessant, einen Blick in die Häuslichkeit einer armenischen Familie zu tun. Diese Armenier kann man in der Tat christliche Türken nennen, so ganz haben sie die Sitten und selbst die Sprache jener herrschenden Nation angenommen, während die Griechen weit mehr ihre Eigentümlichkeiten bewahrten. Die Religion erlaubt ihnen als Christen natürlich nur eine Frau; aber diese ist fast ebenso unsichtbar wie die Türkinnen. Wenn die Armenierinnen auf der Straße erscheinen, sieht man ebenfalls nur die Augen und den oberen Teil der Nase unverschleiert. Sie bringen Dir die Pfeife, reichen den Kaffee und bleiben mit verschränkten Händen vor Dir stehen, bis Du sie auffordest, sich zu setzen” (1835-1839, 123-124)."

Translation from German to English:

"It is very interesting to do a view into the domesticity of an Armenian family. One can call these Armenians indeed Christian Turks, her the customs and even the language of that dominant nation so completely accepted, while the Greeks retained far more their peculiarnesses. The religion permits them as a Christian naturally only one woman; but this is nearly just as invisible as door chins. If those appear Armenian inside on the road, one sees likewise only the eyes and the top of the nose unverschleiert. They bring you the whistle, hand the coffee and stop with hands before you, until you them auffordest, to set itself"

There's no wonder, it's their own homeland for thousands of years.
The Turks, being the minority, have always wanted to understate the number of indigenous peoples in Ottoman Tyranny, especially that of the Armenians, the most numerous of the millets:

Reis Efendi in his Risalesi, the official report for the Ottoman Ministry of Interior, prepared in 1778-1780, wrote that "the Armenians were the most numerous reaya-population in the Ottoman State". In numbers it should lie somewhere between 2.5 to 3 million, since the Greek population at the time must have been over 2 million.

Jean Baptiste Tavernier, who traveled six times in the East in the period of 1632-1668 wrote in his notes that "the land stretching from Tokat to Tabriz is almost exclusively inhabited by Christians and this region used to be part of the Armenian Kingdom...That's why it's not surprising to come across fifty Armenians for every single Muslim".

I have also heard that in the time of Tigran the great the population of Armenia was 5 million. I am not sure about this.

Please note that the Armenians stated to migrate to North America and other places in masses before the turn of the 19th Century, and same trend continued after the turn of the century.

"One million Armenians live in the US, of which half are in California. Armenian migration to America began in earnest in the early 1800s when young Armenians went to study or work in the US. Later, 100,000 Armenians migrated there due to the Hamidian massacres in Turkey. Many tens of thousands continued to migrate to the US over the course of the 20th century. Instability in the Middle East brought new waves of Armenians and, beginning in 1975, hundreds of Armenians began to migrate every year to the US from the Republic of Armenia."

http://www.3noor.org/nnp00/armig_usa.html

Thus, it would be logical to claim that the Armenians converted to Islam over time, particularly after the Ottomans began to be spectical about their Christian citizens.

The very fact that the Turks of Turkey are genetically as far removed as their Central Asian ancestors, confirms the fact that the Turks were a minority and forcefully turkified the locals. You may also have more Armenian/Greek/Assyrian/Eastern European genes than Turkish and you don't even know it.

BTW, it's said that up to 40% of people living in Turkey today don't consider themselves Turks and do not mix with them. As Turkey is getting closer to enter EU, these people will find the courage to be more vocal.

There is no clear line like you try to point out. The Turkish migration to Anatolia started as early as the 6th Century and continued even in the 20th Century,. As noted by the Armenians and the Byzantines, the Turks were their neighbours in Caucasus, and in Crimea. The Crimean Armenians even used to know Kipchak Turkish back in time, so their adaptation to the Ottoman culture was relatively easy compared to the other ethnicities.

Finally, I dont worry if I have the Armenian genes or not, but I wonder how you would feel if you happen to know that you have some Turkish genes. For your record, I am a Karachay-Balkar (Bolgar) Turk by my father's side, and mother side is related to the Balkars, Kumyks and Crimean Tatars (Kipchak Turks from Dagestan). Perhaps, some of my forefathers were some Armenians, but I would never know that as you also say.

[elendil]

BTW, it's said that up to 40% of people living in Turkey today don't consider themselves Turks and do not mix with them. As Turkey is getting closer to enter EU, these people will find the courage to be more vocal.

Nonsense, believe me everyone mixes in Turkey. It is %15 or %20 of the population which are Kurds, who dont consider themsleves Turks, the rest expect a few hundred thousands the rest speaks Turkish, consider themselves Turks therefore they are Turkish people. My father is Laz but he is first Turkish. As I am Turkish. Dont believe everything you hear about a country that you dont live in, just as I dont buy %40 of Iran is formed of Azeri Turks and such. Propaganda groups of both side write deep BS to appease their hate-mongering mob.