Hello -- I have a question

[1.5 million]

So let's come to the subject.
1. This as told deaths of the Armenians can't be said as "Genocide", because not all the Armenian nation is wiped away from the history scene.

I supose that you would agree then that there was no Rwandan Genocide - as Tutsi's still live, no Cambodian Genocide - as Cambodians still live and no Azerbaijani genocide...because there was never a nation called Azerbaijan before 1895...and so on and so forth - do you agree? If not then I supose you must evaluate your use of terminology.

2. Again this is not”Genocide", because they are still all alive, living in Turkey though!

Please provide accurate and verified Turkish census figures to prove to us that the descendents of 2 million Armenians from 1915 are "still all alive, living in Turkey "....

3. This is not "Genocide", because they weren’t killed by the Ottoman Government's orders, by Turkish or the Ottoman Military or any by any official of Turkish (Ottoman) Government. Even, the people related with the death of any Armenian(s) in those days were punished and even were killed by the Government and special war courts.

Is that so? Why is it that (all reputable non bought off) historians and scholars completley disagree with you along with pretty much everyone else. Look asehole - yoou and your governemnt just claiming things and repeating it does not make it true. Don't you realise that there are tens of thousands of records - eyewitness accounts, reports from government agents (even from Turkish allies), confessions, memoirs and trail evidence and verdicts of Ottoman courts and ottoman parlimentary preceedings (and so on and so forth ad nauseum) that totaly prove you wrong. So instead of comming here and preaching to us I suggest you actually read something other then the MHP "little red book" of pat answers to issues you know nothing about.

There is not”Genocide". There was a have-to-migrate-situation. And it was because the Armenians were participating in the Russian Army in the northeastern borders of the Ottoman Empire. Do you know that the Armenian mobs were armed and supported and that they killed 30,000 Turkish people in the northeastern parts BEFORE THE WORLD WAR STARTED!!

No I didn't know any of this pray tell - was that in "Call to EMpire" "Civilization III" "Rome total war" ? or some other alternative universe you invented of which I am totally unaware? ...and could you elaborate on the "have-to-migrate-situation" orders? Is this accomplished by a military unit, by direct civil government action or does it have to be initiated by a worker unit?

Nowadays, "the Armenian Genocide" is a politic lie to hold on to for the Armenians. And what the Armenians want is to participate the Turkish lands (cities in the eastern part of Turkish Republic). They want to be paid money as according to their loss in the days of war.

I thought that you said that Armenians were all still there in Turkey...and now you are trying to deny them "to participate the Turkish lands" - are you advocating genocide? Do you plan to kill all these Armenians? or just uproot them and drive them into the desert?

So ı suggest you read some books and historical sources, get deep into the REAL HISTORY and then you'll find out the truth. You are just speaking what you've heard around.

hahahahahahaha...really now. My library has I estimate about 100 books concerning the history of this period and of this region...and while I can't say I've read every word in each one I've done a fair job of it. (is the DEEP ENOUGH in the REAL HISTORY for you?) Please list the history books you've read concerning these events...the ones you would most recommend...you know...written by historians and such....I'd be very curious to see your list and for you to give us a synopsis of the contents and perhaps compare one historians theories with some others and give us your enlightened opinions as you are certainly comming accross as quite the expert...

You are showing pictures of dying Armenians, articles written on this subject. But I can show also millions of pictures, articles, videos, government and military archives, even the Armenian archives reported! They (the Armenian reports) also report and accept that they've killed thousands of Turkish people without any purpose but just because of hate and of the supports of the imperialists on them.

"millions" - yes do show us "millions" ....do you read Armenian BTW?...just curious....and if Armenians did kill the Turkish people as you claim then I guess...you....must.....be....Armenian? That would explain it all you know - very cleanly....

How come we just open and say that we are ready to share all the information in our government archives but the Armenians don't? Think of that. 'cause then it will be known and find out that the Armenians got nothing to hold on about the "as the Armenian Genocide".

Yes how come you do say these things (when they are abjectly untrue)...why would you lie? I wonder....

I'll report more documents and acknowledge all of you later on.

Bye till then.

..l..

[1.5 million]

Well there was Genocide "1.5 million". Natzi? Does this mean anything to you?
You should search the 2nd World War history. Read the "Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler"..

I am not familiar with this term "Natzi" - National Socialist Turkish Zenophobic Idiot? Did I get it right? How did you enjoy reading Meain Kampf BTW...did it make you think to yourself "we can do better"?

I am not obsessed with the verb "genocide", holocaust or massacre. I am telling that(ı see that you couldn't get it) neither the Ottoman or the Turks had killed the Armenians on purpose(or for purpose free). I say that if there is a Genocide, it is the Turkish Genocide. Tkae yout time and get more deep in to the history.

Turkish Genocide - yes I see - well then as Turk whose people have suffered terribly - I demand that you dastardly genociding Armenians who infest Anatolia and call you nation "Turkey" (the nerve) give it back to its rightful owners!

[1.5 million]

Well there was Genocide "1.5 million". Natzi? Does this mean anything to you?
You should search the 2nd World War history. Read the "Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler".

By your definition it falls way short. Did you knwo that a greater portion of Armenians (or perhaps as you are claiming Turks who call themselves Armenains)were killed in WWI (by the Ottoman Turks - or by your definition Armenians pretending to be Turks) then the level of casualties suffered by any ethnic/religious group during WW2?

[Bulgarian]

I see that "Bulgarian" is a deadly opposing personality of Turks and Turkey.

I dont oppose the Turks (well not all of them) I have already said that I like some of their songs - they have some good music.

But I am opposed to Turkeys crimes against humanity past and present and Turkeys denial of these crimes.

Ill show you something on here:

1. Armenian Massacres (1915-23): 1 500 000
   • The big massacres occured in 1915, but there were rumblings before and after:
     • 1909:
       • Rummel: 30,000
       • Eckhardt: 6,000
     • 1915-18:
       • Britannica: 600,000
       • Dict.Wars: 600,000 died of starvation, disease and exhaustion
       • Steven Katz in Is the Holocaust Unique? (Rosenbaum, ed.): 475,800-775,800
       • Encarta: 800,000
       • Kuper: 800,000
       • Martin Gilbert, A History of the Twentieth Century: 1,000,000
       • Eckhardt: 1,000,000 civ.
       • Robert Melson in Is the Holocaust Unique?: 1,000,000
       • Christopher Walker, Armenia : The Survival of a Nation (1980): 1,000,000 (in Turkey, 1915-16), plus an additional 50-100,000 (invasion of the Caucasus, 1918)
       • Alan Palmer, The Decline & Fall of the Ottoman Empire (1992)
         • Official Turkish est.: 300,000
         • max. Armenian claims: 2M
         • probable: >1,300,000 during war and aftermath
       • Porter: 1,000,000 to 1,500,000
       • Rummel: 1,404,000 domestic, 83,000 foreign
       • War Annual 8 (1997): 1,500,000
       • The Turkish Government denies that the Armenians were massacred, and instead, accuses the Armenians of massacring some 23,100 Turks. [http://www.kultur.gov.tr/portal/default_en.asp?belgeno=3338]
       • MEDIAN of these 16 estimates is 1M
     • Individual massacres
       • Trebizond
       • Bitlis
     • 1919-23:
       • C. Walker: 250,000 (in Turkey, 1919-22)
       • Robert Melson in Is the Holocaust Unique?: 500,000
       • Rummel: 440,000 domestic, 175,000 foreign

Did you see that?



Out of 16 independent sources on the Armenian genocide (none of these sources are Turkish OR Armenian) the average figure is 1 million.

Now Im a reasonable guy. If one or two of these sources said only 1.5 million Armenians died then I would question it but 16 independent sources give an average of 1 million.

Did you know your god Ataturk was in charge of Turkey when as the sources say between 250,000 to 500,000 Armenians died. This alone is a genocide. This shows that it wasnt what you say

First of all you should stop to say; “Turks should stop denying the Armenian Genocide and should apologize.". This brings up the question whether there was Genocide or not. I've seen through that all of you agree on the term "Genocide". Then Genocide: to destroy or wipe away a society on purpose because of religion, national and other causes.

There was a genocide as I have just shown you and everyone who is not Turkish knows it was a genocide. You forget to say important words like "attempt to destroy". Every person in the world (who is not a Turk) says it was a genocide.

Dont you think Turkey should apologize? Half the Armenian population was killed, half the Armenian population was thrown out of their homes in which they had lived before the Oghuz Turks were chased out of Turkestan (central Asia) by the other Turkic tribes.

According to your definition there was never a genocide ever! If you try and destroy a group in part like Turkey destroy half of Armenia then it was a genocide.

Why are many many countries recognising the Armenian genocide? Its not because of a western conspiracy against Turkey. It is because they have records about the genocide. Germany recognised it because German soldiers were in the Ottoman empire at the time and they saw the Armenians being mass murdered by Turks. This is not a lie and there are many diaries written by Germans who witnessed it and there are actually photos of the genocide taken by German soldiers who were THERE.

Whats this?



Is it a lie? Maybe it is a German/Armenian/European/Christian lie against Turkey?



there are more photos of the Armenian genocide taken by Germans here:
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_wegner.html

So let's come to the subject.
1. This as told deaths of the Armenians can't be said as "Genocide", because not all the Armenian nation is wiped away from the history scene.

Actually you are partially right. A nation called Armenia is not wiped off this planet. The Armenian nation used to be more than 3 times its current size. Guess who owns the former lands of the Armenians? Yep your right its Turkey.

After Turkey deported/relocated/massacred/mass murdered/went against the norms of human nature/genocided or what ever you want to call it (its just semantics to me - it all means the same thing). After Turkey did all that to the Armenians they took/stole more than half of the Armenian nation. So it was a genocide.

If you didnt understand Ill spell it out Turkey killed/deported 2 million+ Armenians from their homelands. Then Turkey keeps the Armenian homelands. Then Turkey denies what it did, Turkey tries to change history. But it cant there is too much evidence of the crime.

Your government (idare) is lying (yalan) to you (sen). Tamam? Do you understand this?

2. Again this is not”Genocide", because they are still all alive, living in Turkey though!

Hahaha I didnt know there were... wait a minute if there were at least 2.5 million Armenians in Turkey in 1915 then now the total Armenian population must be at least 5 million? Are there really 5 million Armenians in Turkey?

I think the answer is no.

There are over 2.5 million Armenians in Europe and Russia.
There are also over or around 1 million Armenians in the USA.

All of these Armenians are saying that they had relatives who were killed? Are they all lying? Is the entire Armenian nation and almost everyother historian lying on this one?

There is not”Genocide". There was a have-to-migrate-situation. And it was because the Armenians were participating in the Russian Army in the northeastern borders of the Ottoman Empire. Do you know that the Armenian mobs were armed and supported and that they killed 30,000 Turkish people in the northeastern parts BEFORE THE WORLD WAR STARTED!!

If that did happen then that doesnt make it all justified.

You know if Turkey recognised the genocide then proper research can be done throughout all of Turkey. Scientists can test the DNA of the dead people to see what exactly happened. But Turkey denies everything so why should people believe a word Turkey says?

Thats a good one! Since Turkey denies the obvious then why do Turks expect the rest of the world (who side with the Armenians on this) to even think that the rest of the world will believe the massacres of Turks for even one second?

Nowadays, "the Armenian Genocide" is a politic lie to hold on to for the Armenians. And what the Armenians want is to participate the Turkish lands (cities in the eastern part of Turkish Republic). They want to be paid money as according to their loss in the days of war.

Actually the denial of the Armenian Genocide is a political lie by Turkey to avoid responsiblity of the actions of the Ottoman and early days of the Turkish republic actions against the Armenians and to keep up this fake image about Turkey being tolerent and peaceful and a democratic nation.

So ı suggest you read some books and historical sources, get deep into the REAL HISTORY and then you'll find out the truth. You are just speaking what you've heard around.

Have YOU read a book on the Armenian genocide??

You are showing pictures of dying Armenians, articles written on this subject. But I can show also millions of pictures, articles, videos, government and military archives, even the Armenian archives reported! They (the Armenian reports) also report and accept that they've killed thousands of Turkish people without any purpose but just because of hate and of the supports of the imperialists on them.

Can we see these picture and videos and articles of the Armenians massacring the Turks?

Im dying to see this !

How come we just open and say that we are ready to share all the information in our government archives but the Armenians don't? Think of that. 'cause then it will be known and find out that the Armenians got nothing to hold on about the "as the Armenian Genocide".

Why didnt Turkey open their archives about the Armenian Genocide on the 24th of April 1915?

Why did Turkey wait over 80 years to open their archives?

Why does Armenia or anyother nation need to discuss anything with Turkey? Almost everything has been established. When Turkey recognises the genocide further research inside Turkey can take place so that we may learn more about the genocide and if indeed as you say there are - any Turkish mass graves. I really mean this but Turkey needs to come to terms with its past first.

[Joseph]

[QUOTE=kazak]Hi everyone,

I am new to this site. But I’ve read much enough to have an opinion about your thoughts, visions on the "(as) Armenian Genocide".

I see that "Bulgarian" is a deadly opposing personality of Turks and Turkey.

First of all you should stop to say; “Turks should stop denying the Armenian Genocide and should apologize.". This brings up the question whether there was Genocide or not. I've seen through that all of you agree on the term "Genocide". Then Genocide: to destroy or wipe away a society on purpose because of religion, national and other causes.


So, what you're saying is that in order for it to be genocide, all of the Armenians would have had to have been killed. Hmm, I should check with Rwandans, Bosnians, Jews, American Indians, Cambodians. I believe some of them are still alive today...even in their homelands. And I suppose the Armenians in Konya, Marash, Kayseri, regions no where near the frontline were working for the Russian army. You've also mentioned how no Turkish officials took part in the Genocide yet some Turkish officials were punished for their actions in the tribunals. Did you know that the massacres of Armenians began well before 1915 in places such as Adana, Hadjin, Van, Sassoon, Zeitun? I suppose by using the same rhetoric, the Kurds will all have to be removed from eastern Turkey. The Armenians archives are open and Erdogans so-called offer to open archives is not only a farce, it's used a propoganda to make it look as though Turkey is interested in solving the problem in the eyes of the EU.

[kazak]

First of all "Bulgarian", Atatürk never declared or ordered a 250,000 or 500,000 or any death of the Armenians. On the second hand, he also punished the people killing the Armenians in special war courts.
_ When Atatürk gives a reception to the Lords, Ministries, Kings from all over the world, he deeply felt terrible with an English man staring at his eyes with anger. He called one of his aide and asked him to go learn what the man is looking him in such a way. The aide leaves and comes back soon. Atatürk asks him what the matter was. He says; "majesty,the man is angry because he says that you've killed his father!". Atatürk turns and asks the aide:"Well but what was his father doing in my lands?".

It was a war. But again I tell you that Atatürk never ordered such a crime. As ı said he punished the people treating bad to the Armenians. Keep that in mind.

[Gavur]

Hic bi boktan da haberin yok ya carikli

(You dont know xxxx sandal wearer)

[Bulgarian]

After all that time I spent responding to you, you just write a little pathetic paragraph.

The only imperialist nation I know of is Turkey.

Turkey is a facist state. What other country do you know of has punishments for "insulting the Turkish flag" or "insulting the Turkish army".

Turkey is lying to you. Why do you think Turkey is telling you the truth? Is it because they tell you what you want to believe?

Did the Japanese people placed in internment camps die of starvation? Where they kicked out of America? Did they lose their homes? The answer to all these questions is NO.

I have asked you to prove all the massacres of Turks. You havent and I dont think you can. You just replace the word Armenian, Assyrian, Greek with Turk. You say that you were massacred by all these people? Why dont you mourn these dead. I mean you must have lost a generation of people, why dont you mourn the dead every year?

Why does no one believe Turkey? Why does every non Turk believe the Armenians?

[kazak]

well I was here to discuss and bring out the truth but I see that you are way away from politeness and speking motto. What's there left to do if you insult??
Sorry to try talking to you!

[1.5 million]

Bulgarian and Joseph - excellent replies. We are wasting our breath on this totally deluded fool however. It is very apparent that there is absolutly nothing we can say - no truth, no evidence no set of facts etc - that would at all make any difference to this Turk. He is a product of total brainwashing. Its amazing just how successful such a process can be with some people - and there are plenty in Turkey that are just like him unfortunatly.