Hello -- I have a question

[Kharpert]

I think Armenian Nationalists are the ones who call the shots in Armenia anyway, and you say you want relations with Turkey? I think you want relations on your terms and that's it.

How many times do I have to tell you? Armenia has time and again announced loud and clear that they are ready to start relations with Turkey without any preconditions. It is Turkey that refuses to start relations with Armenia because they are holding the Genocide issue and Karabagh issue hostage. It is Turkey that imposed an embargo on Armenia. At the same time, they are hiding behind the excuse that Armenia will expect land and money from them if they accept the Genocide when in fact that's not even the policy of the Armenian government, and has nothing to do with recognition. It's nothing but paranoia and denial that's keeping Turkey from addressing the Genocide issue, no matter how hard they are pressed.

It is Turkey that imposes all the terms upon itself.

And I don't know what you're talking about when you say "respecting Turkish territory". Armenia has conducted all its political business within its present borders and has never caused trouble past its borders. In fact, it was Turkey that attempted to invade modern Armenia several times in the last century, so if by "respecting Turkish territory" you mean accept pan-Turanism, then the answer is no. The precondition of "respecting Turkish territory" is nonsense.

[Behcet]

It wasn't from your wording, it's from your overall tone.

I don't think there is any "denial" in my tone. And in this thread I ask a question.

FYI, this site is for members who wish to learn about the Armenian Genocide, or share their knowledge about the Armenian Genocide. It is not for deniers to try to spread their government fed propaganda.

So, Are you here to do one of the above, to (Learn or share) information about the Armenian Genocide? If so - great! If not, go fester with the open wound better known as hold-water...

I can tell you that I'm not here for the purposes of "denial", or "government propaganda". I'm educated outside of Turkey anyway and government propaganda is the last thing I care about.

Armenia has time and again announced loud and clear that they are ready to start relations with Turkey without any preconditions.

Can you site your sources please, just so I can read for myself and know exactly what Armenia's position is.

At the same time, they are hiding behind the excuse that Armenia will expect land and money from them if they accept the Genocide when in fact that's not even the policy of the Armenian government, and has nothing to do with recognition.

I am getting entirely contradictory answers from you guys. Tounge says that we do have to pay, you say that recognition has nothing to do with lands and reperations. And as far as Turks being "paranoid", you are right about that, we are surrounded by enemies on all sides that want nothing more than to tear us appart, of coarse we are paranoid.

So let me review,

Joseph wants an appology.
Kharpert just wants recognition.
Tounge wants recognition and monetary reparations.
Maggie made her intention pretty clear -- land and reperations.

And I don't know what you're talking about when you say "respecting Turkish territory". Armenia has conducted all its political business within its present borders and has never caused trouble past its borders.

Now you are just being dishonest. You can try to bring up the position that Karabag Armenians acted entirely on their own, but you'd be lying not only to me but to yourself as well.

And I don't know what you're talking about when you say "respecting Turkish territory".

I mean Armenia categorically fails to recognise various regions of eastern turkey as integral parts of turkey, until Armenia does so, we have every reason to be "paranoid".

I am explaining to you the reality of things.

[Hovik]

So now you see there is no one answer... we are all victims of this crime, and all have different expectations as to how to resolve it.

[TurQ]

Joseph
This is what I understand, Armenians(Diasporans) and Turks actually live different worlds, they are so close to each other in terms geography and may be culturally, but they are apart may be millions of millions of light years in terms of communicating. My understanding is there is no common language, and perceptions play major role in this.

For Turks believe me Armenians dont mean much, not a threat not a neighbour, it is as if they dont exist, or exist in nirvana. DOnt get me wrong I'm not saying we are looking down to Armenians, but it is as if they are like Koreans to us. The only interactions are negative in sense, it is "They are trying to turn the world against us", "they fiercely hate us", "They dont recognize our borders and so they want parts of our country". Do you think it is Turkey's(only) guilt in this? As I understand majority of the Armenians wake up the day and curse Turkey, follow the news about Turkey, but the other side it is as if Armenians dont exist, dont know anything about whats going on in their world, just once in a while they hear these negative attempts towards them. Without breking this vicous cycle, I personally dont think there will be any positive relations, cause there is no communication either healthy or not healthy.
I remeber reading an Armenian girls friendship with a Turkish guy, he has hidden his identity first, when the girl learns that that guy is actually Turkish she fealt of betrayal to her nation. And she is probably among the most open minded in her communty. We cant understand this, you can give it our culture or else, but the fact is that it is incomprehensible for us that even that girl feels a betrayal. Dont get me wrong I am not blaming I am just telling my observations. I know Armenians even wouldnt shake hands with Turks, when these pile up it become real hard for us to understand whats really going on on the "other" side.

There are lots of thing that can be said on this issue but it is useless and pointless because of miscommunication and I believe it further antagonizes both sides. The starting point can be(I mean between ordinary people) at least refrain from feeding each other's negative perceptions, but even this is a question within a question.

Hope you dont get me wrong

I am not sure how and don't ever believe relations will be characterized as "good". We'll have to see.

For some Armenians the intention is reparations and for some it is an apology. And although a big noise is always made about Armenia supossedly not recognizing Turkish territorial integrity, do Turks actually believe Armenia will demand territory? Turkey doesn't recognize the extermentation of Armenians from Anatolia so to the Armenians it will always seem that the Turkish intention is to cover up a crime. This whole situation reminds me of a girl being raped and then she is asked by the rapists family in the most audacious manner to forgive the rapist and let the past be the past.

In any event the diaspora may or may not ever stop "coming at Turkey" but what does it matter? They are a diaspora community and not Armenia.

[Bulgarian]

You want aknologement of "what happened"? Or you want it called genocide?

Assuming we aknowlege exactly what Armenians say happenned, then what?

Maggie's demands?

Behcet as one human to another.

If the massacres of 8000 Bosnians is considered Genocide then why isnt the the massacre of 1.5 million Armenians considered genocide?

You may say that 1.5 million Armenians didnt die. Maybe your right because we will never know how many died. Suppose if even less than 1 million died. Why does this change what it is defined as? It was a genocide. Did you know there were about 2 million Armenians in Turkey way back in 1915? Where did they all go? They didnt want to go and now almost all of them are gone. Since they were forcibly removed that still means that ethnic cleansing occured. Ethnic cleansing is just a polite form of saying Genocide.

Would you accept it if Armenians wanted recognition because Turkey ethnically cleansed them?

[TurQ]

Behcet Kardes

This is the hardest part, the diasporans are individuals, they might be represented by lobbying groups but not in a sense like they are represented by a country, this was the case for decases upuntil Armenia is founded but a country which need lots of witness to call it a country. As I understand being stateless makes diasporans more antagonistic towards Turks and Turkey. They feel like they are individually (c9ntinously)effected by Turkish politics, nothing to "save" them themselves, so everyone of them developing their own solution on this.


At this juncture Turkey should understand this and play it carefully,try to find ways first, ways to diminish the influence of diasporan groups over Armenia, and find ways directly to communicate to ordinary Armenian in diaspora, if Turkey cant comminicate to ordinary people the hardliners can easily sell their ideals and conspiracy theories. In short find ways to diminish this chronic mistrust between us and them.

So let me review,

Joseph wants an appology.
Kharpert just wants recognition.
Tounge wants recognition and monetary reparations.
Maggie made her intention pretty clear -- land and reperations.



Now you are just being dishonest. You can try to bring up the position that Karabag Armenians acted entirely on their own, but you'd be lying not only to me but to yourself as well.



I mean Armenia categorically fails to recognise various regions of eastern turkey as integral parts of turkey, until Armenia does so, we have every reason to be "paranoid".

I am explaining to you the reality of things.

[Bulgarian]

Yeah hard to argue with the insane and or with self-decieved pathological liers...logic doesn't much work...

I believe that we must try and be nice to all these Turks.

Maybe he will one day believe it was a genocide. What I mean is we should educate and not insult people.

[TurQ]

Bulgarian
what you are saying is true regarding that you have to be nice and not insulting.
I am wondering how you will improve yourself, cause you expressed a great deal of hateful and racist ideas towards Muslims, and Turks.

I believe that we must try and be nice to all these Turks.

Maybe he will one day believe it was a genocide. What I mean is we should educate and not insult people.

[Behcet]

You may say that 1.5 million Armenians didnt die.

I didn't say anything of it and you don't understand. I'm not denying. That isn't the topic here.

At this juncture Turkey should understand this and play it carefully,try to find ways first, ways to diminish the influence of diasporan groups over Armenia,

Turkey can do this? How do you propose Turkey can do this? I think Armenia's leadership is Nationalist. Robert Kocharian was a fighter in Karabag.

[Bulgarian]

Bulgarian
what you are saying is true regarding that you have to be nice and not insulting.
I am wondering how you will improve yourself, cause you expressed a great deal of hateful and racist ideas towards Muslims, and Turks.

You cant be racist to a religion. I have the freedom to say what I want about Islam or Christianity. For instance I dont see a difference between the extremists on both sides.

Muslims say there are scientific miracles in the Quran
Christians say there are scientific miracles in the Bible

Muslims say Christianity is flawed and has been contaminated by man.
Christians say Islam is flawed and a fake religion.

Muslims extremists bomb western targets like train stations and buildings.
Christian extremists in the USA bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors who carry out abortions (Pro Lifers killing Doctors )

As for the Turks. Your nation has conducted so many massacres against so many people. For instance the Moghuls who invaded India were mainly a Turkic peoples and they ended up killing 10s of millions of Indians. The highest estimates are that they killed more people than the total number of people that died in the ENTIRE SECOND WORLD WAR. Then theres the Ottomans and their inhumain massacres/genocides against others. Talat didnt just target the Armenians. He caused a man-made famine in Lebanon. Do you know who copied Talats ideas? Stalin (the famines of the Ukraine) and Hitler (the Holocaust). The republic of Turkey today is as much based on expansionism as the Ottoman empire.


Todays Turks just it without question. They arent vocal enough for change. Turkey in my opinion is far behind most of Europe. When I see the masses out on the street demanding change (and not by means of the army overthrowing the government) and achieving it then I will really think that Turkey has changed. But Im never gonna see that am I?