if this forum is for searching truths, i want to contribute

[TurQ]

1)It is related with those people residing in Istanbul but deported to east, or had activities in east. SOme of the reports are intelligence reports

2) Russians were stoped by the gates of Bitlis city center by early summer 1915(I think June), but the villages in the east totally devastated by the Russians and Fedayins, early summer of 1915 the city center was total chaos filled with the villalgers who ran from Russians and Fedayins. The Ottoman army was in disarray and army was retreating to west, they called all civilians to escape to west for their lives, but the local volunteers(in city of Bitlis) refused it cause it would be even more dangerous, they asked for additional arms and ammunition, the army told them they have left everything, and described the location to volunteers, but they had to be picked up before the Russians arrive there, they could be able to save the artilery and other ammunition, thats how Bitlis city center was saved from Russians.

But the city was fell to Russians in 1916(March), Colonel Ali Cetinkaya didnt have the enough power to save the city, and more carnage followed in 1916.

1/ What is the Istanbul police doing having documents relating to the Empire's eastern provinces? An obvious answer is that the document is a fake report written in Cnstantinople in 1915 and intended for release there as black propaganda.

2/ Since the Russians never actually captured Bitlis (or any part of Bitlis province) in 1915, there could hardly be any massacres there, could there?
Well, massacres of Muslim anyway - there were plenty of massacres of Christians.

[bell-the-cat]

2) Russians were stoped by the gates of Bitlis city center by early summer 1915(I think June), but the villages in the east totally devastated by the Russians and Fedayins, early summer of 1915 the city center was total chaos filled with the villalgers who ran from Russians and Fedayins. The Ottoman army was in disarray and army was retreating to west, they called all civilians to escape to west for their lives, but the local volunteers(in city of Bitlis) refused it cause it would be even more dangerous, they asked for additional arms and ammunition, the army told them they have left everything, and described the location to volunteers, but they had to be picked up before the Russians arrive there, they could be able to save the artilery and other ammunition, thats how Bitlis city center was saved from Russians.

Sorry, but the above is just fantasy.

In May 1915 the Russians were advancing around the northern end of Lake Van. By mid May they had captured Adilcevas, Ahlat, and were advancing on Malazgirt. Meanwhile, unknown to the Russians, the Turkish armies after the Sarikamish disaster had been re-equiped and were in a far stronger situation that the Russians thought. After capturing Malazgirt, and in order to consolidate their gains, the Russians advanced to the south-western corner of the lake, capturing Tatvan in mid June 1915. By this point the Russians were seriously over extended, did not fully control all of the territory they had occupied (including the lands to the west of Malazgirt), and in the middle of July the Turks began counter attacking. The south western corner of the lake was immediately abandoned and the Russians retreated towards Malazgirt, then evacuating that town on the 26th July and reteating over the mountains to the Eleskirt valley. Russian forces also retreated back along the southern shores of the lake and abandoned Van on the 4th August.

In other words, they got nowhere near Bitlis, or the Mush valley, and the Turks were in secure control of both these territories.

[TurQ]

Just look at the Bitlis Map

The Russians were aiming to attack Bitlis and the advacing Russian soldiers stopped before by the volunteer local militia.

Sorry, but the above is just fantasy.

In May 1915 the Russians were advancing around the northern end of Lake Van. By mid May they had captured Adilcevas, Ahlat, and were advancing on Malazgirt. Meanwhile, unknown to the Russians, the Turkish armies after the Sarikamish disaster had been re-equiped and were in a far stronger situation that the Russians thought. After capturing Malazgirt, and in order to consolidate their gains, the Russians advanced to the south-western corner of the lake, capturing Tatvan in mid June 1915. By this point the Russians were seriously over extended, did not fully control all of the territory they had occupied (including the lands to the west of Malazgirt), and in the middle of July the Turks began counter attacking. The south western corner of the lake was immediately abandoned and the Russians retreated towards Malazgirt, then evacuating that town on the 26th July and reteating over the mountains to the Eleskirt valley. Russian forces also retreated back along the southern shores of the lake and abandoned Van on the 4th August.

In other words, they got nowhere near Bitlis, or the Mush valley, and the Turks were in secure control of both these territories.

[bell-the-cat]

Just look at the Bitlis Map

The Russians were aiming to attack Bitlis and the advacing Russian soldiers stopped before by the volunteer local militia.

In 1915 the Russians had no plans to take either Bitlis or Mush. You know nothing of the history of these areas, and you have a complete ignorance of the geography of these areas.
You have never been to Bitlis.
You have never been to Tatvan.
You have never set foot in any of the places that I wrote about in my earlier post.

[TurQ]

Bell
this is directly from the local fighters who were defending Bitlis, again I did not read books on this issue, Russians couldnt manage to advance because of the touch resistance

The Fedayins and Locals had truce for a while, the volunteers gathered around 1500 children who were left by their families and escaped to Russian held areas or safer mountains
The locals transfered those 1500 children to Russian held areas and gave to their families.

Is this included in those books?

PS: I dont mean that the city itself was under attack, they were stopped before Bitlis but the Bitlis city center was in total chaos and filled with refugess

In 1915 the Russians had no plans to take either Bitlis or Mush. You know nothing of the history of these areas, and you have a complete ignorance of the geography of these areas.
You have never been to Bitlis.
You have never been to Tatvan.
You have never set foot in any of the places that I wrote about in my earlier post.

[bell-the-cat]

Bell
this is directly from the local fighters who were defending Bitlis, again I did not read books on this issue, Russians couldnt manage to advance because of the touch resistance

The Fedayins and Locals had truce for a while, the volunteers gathered around 1500 children who were left by their families and escaped to Russian held areas or safer mountains
The locals transfered those 1500 children to Russian held areas and gave to their families.

Is this included in those books?

PS: I dont mean that the city itself was under attacked, they were stopped before Bitlis but the Bitlis city center was in total chaos and filled with refugess

In 1915 the Russians did not make any advance on Bitlis because they had no intention or desire or capability to take Bitlis.

By far the most important book on the battles fought in eastern Anatolia during the First World War is the monumental "CAUCASIAN BATTLEFIELDS. A History of the Wars on the Turco-Caucasian Border 1828-1921." by W.E.D. Allen & Paul Muratoff. It was published in 1953. Uniquely, the writers were able to examine at first hand documents from both Russian and Turkish sources, as well as talking to surviving participants.

[bell-the-cat]

And about the map you posted. The route between Tatvan and Bitlis is one of the most difficult in eastern Turkey. Not for nothing were there a half a dozen or so medieval caravanseri along its route even though - on a map - it appears to be a short journey.

"I cannot help thinking that in discussions of this kind, a great deal of misaprehension arises from the popular use of maps on a small scale. As with such maps you are able to put a thump in India and a finger on Russia, some mersons at once think that the political situation is alarming and that India must be looked to. If the noble Lord would use a bigger map he would find that the distance between Russia and British India is not measured by the finger and thumb, but by a rule." Lord Salisbury, speaking at the House of Commons, 11 June 1877.

[TurQ]

So you are saying that Russians decided not to Attack Bitlis, and it was not the resistance forces stopped them but the Russians, is this what you are saying??

Anyways it doesnt matter, this info is directly from the Bitlis locals, who engaged war with Russians,, I'll try to learn the exact location of battle with Russians+Fedayins, but the fact is that Bitlis was full of refugees escaping from Russian armies and fedayin groups. If you like I can find the Armenian resources(eye witness stories) about escaping Muslims from the Russians.

I still dont understand what exactly you are trying to say.

And about the map you posted. The route between Tatvan and Bitlis is one of the most difficult in eastern Turkey. Not for nothing were there a half a dozen or so medieval caravanseri along its route even though - on a map - it appears to be a short journey.

"I cannot help thinking that in discussions of this kind, a great deal of misaprehension arises from the popular use of maps on a small scale. As with such maps you are able to put a thump in India and a finger on Russia, some mersons at once think that the political situation is alarming and that India must be looked to. If the noble Lord would use a bigger map he would find that the distance between Russia and British India is not measured by the finger and thumb, but by a rule." Lord Salisbury, speaking at the House of Commons, 11 June 1877.

[bell-the-cat]

So you are saying that Russians decided not to Attack Bitlis, and it was not the resistance forces stopped them but the Russians, is this what you are saying??

Yes

Anyways it doesnt matter, this info is directly from the Bitlis locals, who engaged war with Russians,, I'll try to learn the exact location of battle with Russians+Fedayins, but the fact is that Bitlis was full of refugees escaping from Russian armies and fedayin groups. If you like I can find the Armenian resources(eye witness stories) about escaping Muslims from the Russians.

Obviously the town was full of refugees. It and Mush were the last major urban settlements in that region that were still in the hands of Turkish forces. And Bitlis was the end point for the retreating Turkish army from Van, and the rabble of Kurds that fled with them. But if you are saying that in 1915 there were battles around Bitlis, and Armenian fedayeen forces roaming around at will, then that is totally incorrect.

[TurQ]

Bell in Jun 1915 there were no sizeable Turkish army to defend(may be a few units), the rest was local fighters who were endorsed by the Army, as i said, the Army left their ammunition and artilery to those fighters.
They have engaged both with Russians and Fedayin groups in 1915, as I have said they have even made a truce with those fedayin groups to save 1500 Armenian children who were left by their families in the villages.

Again this info is directly from the decendants of those volunteer groups.


Because of those volunteer groups Russian army advancing towards Bitlis was stopped.

MOre than half of that volunteer group was perished in 1916 wars around Bitlis and they were scattered after Bitlis fell to Russians.

Yes



Obviously the town was full of refugees. It and Mush were the last major urban settlements in that region that were still in the hands of Turkish forces. And Bitlis was the end point for the retreating Turkish army from Van, and the rabble of Kurds that fled with them. But if you are saying that in 1915 there were battles around Bitlis, and Armenian fedayeen forces roaming around at will, then that is totally incorrect.