Hello I am new here

[bell-the-cat]

On the surface you sound sincere and almost endearing. However, what truly bothers me about you convictions is your moral relativism. In other words, you convey that Armenians and Turks are equally responsible for the crimes (and ongoing crimes) of the Ottoman Empire (and modern day Turkey).

She (I'm assuming lal is a woman) didn't said that. She was saying that rabidly intolerant Turks are pretty much the same as rabidly intolerant Armenians, and both groups suffer from the same disease. Given that she probably has met very few Armenians in real life, and only come across them as an online presence or via third-party reports, her opinion is justified.

Simply put, this is not the case. There is a definite perpetrator and victim when it comes to the shared history of Turks and Armenians .

Do not obfuscate history with word such as "Armenians and Turks have the same disease".
I insist this is not the case. In 1915, Genocide was committed by Turks against Armenians. Today, blockades and political intimidation is committed against the Armenian state by the Turkish state (need I go on?).

Again, you are unjustifiably placing words and opinions into someone else's mouth. Lal implied no such thing in her postings. You seem to be more interested in continuing your own stereotypes about what Turks think than actually reading what she wrote.

Please do not attempt to lump Armenians in with the moral degeneration and grey wolf mentality rampant among Turks...the comparison is invalid.

In the past, Turks were labeled the "sick man of Europe" for a reason...Today, I see no evidence of recuperation.

It was Turkey/the Ottoman Empire that was labeled "The sick man of Europe", it was not Turks.

[lal]

On the surface you sound sincere and almost endearing. However, what truly bothers me about you convictions is your moral relativism. In other words, you convey that Armenians and Turks are equally responsible for the crimes (and ongoing crimes) of the Ottoman Empire (and modern day Turkey).

Simply put, this is not the case. There is a definite perpetrator and victim when it comes to the shared history of Turks and Armenians .

Do not obfuscate history with word such as "Armenians and Turks have the same disease".
I insist this is not the case. In 1915, Genocide was committed by Turks against Armenians. Today, blockades and political intimidation is committed against the Armenian state by the Turkish state (need I go on?).

Please do not attempt to lump Armenians in with the moral degeneration and grey wolf mentality rampant among Turks...the comparison is invalid.

In the past, Turks were labeled the "sick man of Europe" for a reason...Today, I see no evidence of recuperation.

well, to call me ,even implying that ,ı have a grey wolf mentality is the biggest insult you can do to me. shame on you.

ı clearly said that what happended to armenians can be called a genocide. it was a big crime of my ancestors to wipe off the whole armenian culture from anatolia and steal their money and houses and lands. and rape their women etc.

ı also said that turkey or turks owe an open and clear apology to armenians. ı also said ı respect diaspora armenians politic struggles . what else do you want me to say. ı wont go one step further and say that turkey must give lands back to you. and you may try to get your lands back by wars and hatred or may be there is a better way, much easier,by peacefull methods, we all one day can be in eu and get together.so that you can by lands or visit or work in your historic lands peacefully for ever. my position is clear.


You have to understand the average turks mentality . first of all, turks are unaware of their racial identity. most of them believe that they are the decendents of turcics. instead of being proud of great anatolian cultures,including armenian culture, they choose to be proud of mongolian invaders and leaders of arabic evil islam. Ofcourse with this mentality,millions of Turks died at the end of the empire, all over the world.Millions died in Arab lands from hunger ,eating locusts, millions died in balkan wars,Gallipoli,WW1, millions died in eastern front against russians. only about 100 thousand died by freezing in Sarıkamış without shooting a bullet.

half of the population died .there was no high school children left to go to school. All the world ,including the arabs were against us. Actually it was a miracle of Ataturk, to win and create a country out of that mass ,sick man of Europe.

turks with the great criminal ideology of islam were considering dying in the wars as a normal act. this is called a barbarian culture. mothers dont cry for the dead children,they keep on producing new ones. it is War culture.they were not interested anything else in life than wars.

thats why still most of the Turks cant even consider to apologize for what happened in those days. They cant understand the feelinfgs of Armenians. And especially by force ,they will never understand this. turks are extremely resistant against force.simple thinking is this. we died more than them.which is true but irrelevant to armenians position.and lacks any kind of human feelings.

Even if one day a miracle happens, and turks apologise from armenians ,this still wont bring peace to the area. turkey is changing but still long way to go.
because 98% of the population is unaware of the virus causing the troubles.

ı am sorry but ı am disgusted by your priests or popes or whatever,missionaries, imperialist ideology also. ı want every body to leave religons which is the real reason of wars between cultures .

if ı fight here against islam and succeed turks to leave it, this doesnt mean that ı want christianity to come and invade my culture. ı am at the same level disgusted from your religıon. only if everybody can stop this nonsense ,idiotic and retarted evil beliefs and stop the desires of making everybody like himself,we can reach real and honest peace. and only than the apology will be sincere and we can hug each other.

regards

[bell-the-cat]

I insist that Turkey is the most islamic country of the world. pakistan,egypt and others are living under dictatorships and its not their choice to live like that. once those muslim countries living under dictaterships ,especially iran, you might be surprised to see that they might leave islam in masses.Dont compare it by the way we live.

İn Turkey ,people themselves freely choose to be the most cultural islamics. turks consider themselves as the pitbulls of defending islam. People are so deeply muslims that surveys show that only 2% are atheists or agnostics here.This is making me sick. ı simply hate islams or all religons- evil.

Ahh, I get what you mean. That's quite a sophisticated way of looking at it.

Though, how much of a free choice was there. Attaturk chose to try to "domesticate" Turkish Islam rather than work to eliminate it from Turkish society. But Islam is not a religion that can stay fluffy and domesticated for long, and now it is starting to bark, and bare its teeth again, and bite its onetime masters.

However, and though I've never visited Pakistan, or Egypt, so can't with certaintly compare those countries to Turkey, I still say Turkey seems to be more free from the worst restrictions of Islam than in those places. Also, a person can be nominally a Muslim, but really not be one to the extent that it is central to every aspect of their everyday life. I think that a large minority of Muslims in Turkey are like that.

May be we are not too many, But believe me, we will all be one some day. We will not be proud of being muslim or christian or turk or armenian. We will be proud of being a good, loving,sharing humans.

Peace.

There is always a chance of that, someday, I suppose (and I hope).

Btw, I'm not Armenian.

[imported_crusader1492]

Lal,

I never equated you a grey wolf. I said the grey wolf mentality permeates Turkey and there is nothing in the collective Armenian mindset that can be seriously compared to this base fanaticism. If you are of the "2%" that does not relate to this mentality, then I commend you. However, this is what i want you to understand:

The similarities between Armenians and Turks (when it comes to nationalism) are vastly different. Armenians did not commit, then deny a Genocide against Turks; Armenia does not have and article 301; Muslim clerics are not murdered in Armenia; Journalists who advocate peace are not murdered in Armenia; and at the state level, Armenia is not calling to stop the process of normalization of relations with Turkey.

In short, when it comes to comparing Armenians and Turks (which you like to do), it is the Armenians who are standing on the moral high-ground.

Moreover, you keep going back to the theme that religion is the root of all evil when it comes to the broken relationship between Armenian and Turks. i agree that there is some validity to that, but not nearly to the degree of your emphasis.
How else could you explain the fact that Armenia has warm relationships with other Muslim nations such as Iran, Syria, Lebanon etc.

There is something in the Turkish psyche that transcends religion...call it ultra-nationalism, kemalism...whatever it is, it has maintained the uncivilized nature Turkey.

[imported_crusader1492]

ı wont go one step further and say that turkey must give lands back to you.

BTW Lal,

This quote struck me.
On a personal level, if you believe Turks owe an apology to Armenians for wiping then out from their ancestral homeland, then why wouldn't you advocate land reparations?

Sorry if I offend you, but you sound like a regular Turkish nationalist to me.

[bell-the-cat]

BTW Lal,

This quote struck me.
On a personal level, if you believe Turks owe an apology to Armenians for wiping then out from their ancestral homeland, then why wouldn't you advocate land reparations?

Sorry if I offend you, but you sound like a regular Turkish nationalist to me.

Mybe lal doesn't agree with the concept of driving people off their land. Or maybe lal just doesn't want to talk about fantasys that will never happen.

You sound like a regular Armenian fantasist to me.

[imported_crusader1492]

Mybe lal doesn't agree with the concept of driving people off their land. Or maybe lal just doesn't want to talk about fantasys that will never happen.

You sound like a regular Armenian fantasist to me.

I see you are as dramatic as usual (isn't it this type of behavior that got you banned on the AC forum)?

Anyway...regardless of the fact that the land in eastern Turkey is sparsely populated and could be handed over at anytime without "driving people off", I was asking the question in a rhetorical way to further dialogue...no fantasies here.

Also, it would be nice if you let Lal speak for herself before adding your usual snide comments.

[lal]

BTW Lal,

This quote struck me.
On a personal level, if you believe Turks owe an apology to Armenians for wiping then out from their ancestral homeland, then why wouldn't you advocate land reparations?

Sorry if I offend you, but you sound like a regular Turkish nationalist to me.

I have similar negative feelings about you. a typical clash starts like this. Even if one side is very much willing to reconcile, if the other side rejects it,then you never can have peace.

your attitude is normal ,because you are a good christian. You are proud of your 4,000 years of historic past ,roots in Anatolia.the only correct way is christians way.And most logical solution is first to make Turks to confess their crimes and than take the lands back.and best ,to christianize all anatolia since turks are originally anatolians anyway.

My answer is very simple to you. take your crusaders and attack to islamic ultra nationalist grey wolves of Turkey ,make a war .than your lands will be yours,if you can win.and ı dont give a damn about your wars. when you kill each other actually , you will be cleaning the world from s.hit.

religon is killing humans brain. it is a virus. I cant debate with you ı have nothing to tell you or learn from you. İf you can get rid off your religon illness some day, then lets talk about humanity.

You are also not a very intelligent person, talking about good relations of armenians and other muslims today,and comparing it living in a multicultural society of muslims and christians . dont you see all muslim lands usa and eu is full of hate against each other because of religon clashes.

so long,

[Gavur]

He/she is totally correct. I think you should have read more carefully what lal wrote before you jumped.

I stand by what I said .

[Gavur]

An armenian cant be a muslim and a turk cant be a christian.

Are you serious?
Because I had relatives in Turkey that were forced to convert to Islam and I also met some Turks that converted to Christianity!
But what is always a constent is that a believer will never become an atheist.