Ataturks statue in Israel

[Edoman]

Eti, you raise a good point. After the defeat of Ottoman Empire in WWI and subsequent de-Islamification of the country and implementation of secularity and democracy as a requirement for a state, virtually overnight, a mush more detailed and complete study will be required to establish how deep Jewish influence was playing a roll in such unprecedented decisions that came about by Britain and France and others, possibility due to their knowledge of what the Turks are capable of and, what maybe the best course of action that can be taken to control the ME. It is very obvious that present Turkish/Israeli relationship is far beyond common allies and it stretches as far as the Palestinian question for Israel and the national interests and ambitions of Turkey in the Caucasus.

Eti you should know that the Statue of Ataturk was supposed to be placed in Jerusalem but many Jews and especially the Religious Jews strongly blocked it and they stated that they would never allow such an abomination to be placed in the holy land. Israeli Government obliged in pleasing the Turks offered Beersheba as an alternate location. I have a few Jewish friends and they all agreed that it was not appropriate.

It has been said by passed world leaders that Turkey and Israel are the cops on the beat (Middle East) with the police station in Europe and the headquarters in Washington.

[Eti]

Saco

This only shows that, in fact, nationality or religion was not a problem for Ottomans. But any one who was from a different religion other than Islam, had less rights for sure. The separation was just according to religons. And it is also thought provoking that how many christians or Jewish traders were rich and had high rank jobs or positions, especially for Armenians such as becoming governors.

And this shows that there was a reason for the commitment of Armenian genocide other than having different nationality or religion. The reason simply is; because some Armenians wanted to establish their own state. But Ottomans did a big mistake and deported almost all Armenians. Probably they thought that any Armenian will be potential danger, not only today, but in the future. This exteremist idea led Talat, Enver and Cemal to the Armenian genocide. Extremism or paranoia, no doubt this was a big mistake.

[Eti]

Edoman

The thing that you mentioned seems very speculative for me. A misson that has been burdened by Washington and West-Europe on Turkey for Middle East, as a cop, with Israel, would not be a realist demand or politics. At the most, we can just say that as a secular state Turkey has been such a block against extremist Islam in some way.

I understand that many westerners and some people from all around world have difficulities to understand how Turkey has been changed into a secular state after the collapse of an Islamic empire. So, for them it is a need to understand that even by the help some speculations I think, as you too do the same thing.

But the answer is in Ottoman Empire and Ataturk again.

Ottoman Empire was not a completely an Islamic state that was totally ruled according to the Islamic laws (Şeriat). Since the beginning, as they always had more interest in West and tried to set closer relitionship with Europe than East, Ottomans also made some reforms especially in 19th century. Those reforms mostly entered the empire via the Army. And, as an army officer, Ataturk was well educated and he also knew French and had a good advantage to understand the proggress of the western cultures, socially, politically and economically also by some books that were written by European philosophers. So he had many different ideas that would be appreciated so revolutionary and extremist for a state’s administration like Ottoman Empire. This awareness among Ottoman army officers was not specific but common, but mostly became intense in Ataturk. That is why, Ataturk didn’t like Ittihat and Terakki Party leaders and members afterwards and left the Party.

I don’t think there were some supports of Jews for some reasons that came via Western European countries for Turkey’s modernization.

It is not surprising that religious Jews don’t want Ataturk’s statue in their holy place as much as religious Muslims, any relgious individual or a group might not like Ataturk. It is also not surprising but like hearing from a Greek, Kurd or Bulgarian or one of their priests that Ataturk committed a genocide, of course, totally absurd.

[Sako]

Saco

This only shows that, in fact, nationality or religion was not a problem for Ottomans.

I don't know, but Religion has always been an issue with Ottomans, not only in the case of Armenians.

But any one who was from a different religion other than Islam, had less rights for sure.

Less rights and more teasing and abuse (in many cases).

And this shows that there was a reason for the commitment of Armenian genocide other than having different nationality or religion. The reason simply is; because some Armenians wanted to establish their own state. But Ottomans did a big mistake and deported almost all Armenians.

Eti, your forgetting how much better the Armenians were in many fields not just commerce. Turkey hated Armenians very soon. Greed, Eny, Jealousy, and hate drove the Genocide forward, not just political facts. How can any person kill so many people, commit such attrocities and not feel anything? Only deadly hate could produce that.

Probably they thought that any Armenian will be potential danger, not only today, but in the future. This exteremist idea led Talat, Enver and Cemal to the Armenian genocide. Extremism or paranoia, no doubt this was a big mistake.

I may be wrogn Eti but you say this almost as if it was a mere mistake. Many people are so mentally afraid of even remembering the genocide, it wasn't "something" that happened. Armenians weren't a danger, that's BS, Turkey had enormous power and misused it. But yes, Armenians seemed to show great prowess in many fields and fear of the Armenians becoming better then Turks entered Turkey's heart. I don't want it to seem as if this was a mere incident or simply a big mistake. Hope you get my point.

[Alexandros]

I don't know, but Religion has always been an issue with Ottomans, not only in the case of Armenians.



Less rights and more teasing and abuse (in many cases).



Eti, your forgetting how much better the Armenians were in many fields not just commerce. Turkey hated Armenians very soon. Greed, Eny, Jealousy, and hate drove the Genocide forward, not just political facts. How can any person kill so many people, commit such attrocities and not feel anything? Only deadly hate could produce that.



I may be wrogn Eti but you say this almost as if it was a mere mistake. Many people are so mentally afraid of even remembering the genocide, it wasn't "something" that happened. Armenians weren't a danger, that's BS, Turkey had enormous power and misused it. But yes, Armenians seemed to show great prowess in many fields and fear of the Armenians becoming better then Turks entered Turkey's heart. I don't want it to seem as if this was a mere incident or simply a big mistake. Hope you get my point.

Indeed Saco.I agree with you.This was well planned from the beginning and not merely a "mistake".

[Eti]

Saco, we are talking about a cosmopolitan state that was based upon multi-national construction. Since the very beginning, Ottomans always wanted Christians and Jews to keep close to themselves. This was because of some political reasons, but mostly they needed their knowledges at the beginning, but this doesn’t mean that they didn’t want them afterwards. It was a common thing to live in a multi-culturel cities and towns for centuries until the rise of nationalism in 18th century.

When Fatih the Sultan conquered Istanbul he wanted Christians and Jews, who coludn’t run away, to stay in the city. I don’t know if you know but Armenians entered Istanbul for the first time by the Sultan’s request. So, Jews, Armenians and Greeks had their own districts in Istanbul. It is not hard to understand why did they so, of course Ottomans valued their knowledges about sciences, arts, handicrafts and commerce, they would be a link to the Europe as well. And also they kept the existing of Greek Orthodox Patriarch continue in Istanbul. However, they could fastly destroy it. You can say that they used them for their advantages, yes, but not abnormal. Christians and Jews lived with them for centuries and they had their place in the empire.

As Ottomans were rulers and felt themselves in a high position, why / how could they be jealous of Armenians or others? For centuries, in Eastern Anatolia, Turks and Armenians were neighbors in many towns and cities and they weren’t jealous of each others for a long time. Their ordinary lives continued for centuries without any serious conflict.

And in the Western Anatolia, I exactly know that Greeks used to live confortably until 1922.

By the way, I am not trying to tell you that Ottomans were angels, but trying to tell the situation neutrally as much as I know.

Of course AG was a big mistake, but of course it was planned. I didn’t mean that it was made by mistake (because I thought in Turkish). A mistake that was performed by uneducated and foolish leaders. They simply thought that deportation of Armenians would prevent the existing of any Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia. The leaders like Talat and Enver considered all Armenians as potential criminals, not just for their times, also for the future. So, so many innocents died or were killed on the way to the Syria you know.

It is important not to forget that AG was planned by a few individuals, not a nation. And the only reason of it was to prevent Armenians from establishing an Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia, so, for me, no need to seek any other reasons.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

Saco, we are talking about a cosmopolitan state that was based upon multi-national construction. Since the very beginning, Ottomans always wanted Christians and Jews to keep close to themselves. This was because of some political reasons, but mostly they needed their knowledges at the beginning, but this doesn’t mean that they didn’t want them afterwards. It was a common thing to live in a multi-culturel cities and towns for centuries until the rise of nationalism in 18th century.

When Fatih the Sultan conquered Istanbul he wanted Christians and Jews, who coludn’t run away, to stay in the city. I don’t know if you know but Armenians entered Istanbul for the first time by the Sultan’s request. So, Jews, Armenians and Greeks had their own districts in Istanbul. It is not hard to understand why did they so, of course Ottomans valued their knowledges about sciences, arts, handicrafts and commerce, they would be a link to the Europe as well. And also they kept the existing of Greek Orthodox Patriarch continue in Istanbul. However, they could fastly destroy it. You can say that they used them for their advantages, yes, but not abnormal. Christians and Jews lived with them for centuries and they had their place in the empire.

As Ottomans were rulers and felt themselves in a high position, why / how could they be jealous of Armenians or others? For centuries, in Eastern Anatolia, Turks and Armenians were neighbors in many towns and cities and they weren’t jealous of each others for a long time. Their ordinary lives continued for centuries without any serious conflict.

And in the Western Anatolia, I exactly know that Greeks used to live confortably until 1922.

By the way, I am not trying to tell you that Ottomans were angels, but trying to tell the situation neutrally as much as I know.

Of course AG was a big mistake, but of course it was planned. I didn’t mean that it was made by mistake (because I thought in Turkish). A mistake that was performed by uneducated and foolish leaders. They simply thought that deportation of Armenians would prevent the existing of any Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia. The leaders like Talat and Enver considered all Armenians as potential criminals, not just for their times, also for the future. So, so many innocents died or were killed on the way to the Syria you know.

It is important not to forget that AG was planned by a few individuals, not a nation. And the only reason of it was to prevent Armenians from establishing an Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia, so, for me, no need to seek any other reasons.

Eti, I agree with you, that was the motive for genocide: turks were afraid to loose what left of empire- Anatolia to Armenians... yes the Genocide was planed by few people –not the nation , but was executed by the nation….

[Steph]

When Fatih the Sultan conquered Istanbul he wanted Christians and Jews, who coludn’t run away, to stay in the city. I don’t know if you know but Armenians entered Istanbul for the first time by the Sultan’s request.

I'm sure I read somewhere that Armenians were allies of Priam during the Trojan war, Istanbul being built on an ancient site was probably visited by Armenians then. Certainly Armenians were in Byzantium well before the invitation by the Sultan.

[Steph]

They simply thought that deportation of Armenians would prevent the existing of any Armenian State in Eastern Anatolia. The leaders like Talat and Enver considered all Armenians as potential criminals, not just for their times, also for the future. So, so many innocents died or were killed on the way to the Syria you know.

.

Deportation........I suppose the women and children loaded onto ships sent into the Black Sea and thrown overboard were being deported too.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

I'm sure I read somewhere that Armenians were allies of Priam during the Trojan war, Istanbul being built on an ancient site was probably visited by Armenians then. Certainly Armenians were in Byzantium well before the invitation by the Sultan.

Sure, lets do not forget the Byzantian emperors of armenian origine...LOL