Ataturks statue in Israel

[may]

...Sorry May, didn't really understand you here. I wasn't degrading the Turks, just stating facts. There were many occasions when a few Armenians with ancient guns, not enough ammunition or food, and basically in terrible conditions, crushed hundreds of Turks with their smart strategies...

Sorry May, didn't understand you here either. Did I say something wrong?

Dear Saco, in my opinion, you said some important things wrong, and you are still saying wrong things. Let me re-explain myself.

Saying that one human being is superior to another, in whatever context, is fascist-prone. More clever, more brave, more this, more that. These are just generalizations that are totally wrong. And you insist on saying that these are "facts". Facts are like gold my brother, you have to dig deep to find them, you cannot have it by looking from the surface.

Just as a reminder, Turkey got its independence after a war against great forces of that time (post WW-1), and with very very limited resources and against armies in magnitudes of the Turkish army (if you except the men of a country that are able to hold a gun as an army). I wish somebody had translated Turkish Poet Nazim Hikmet's long poem about the independence war and I could post it here. A poem full of ordinary people's resistance for their land. Turks, Kurds and all others altogether. The victory with poor resources, tens against thousands does not make Turks or Kurds more clever, it was more of a war for glory of independence against imperialist powers, an honorable act, but that's all. History is full of them, with different methods and perspectives. Algerians against French, Indians against British and many more. That does not make any nation superior, but puts an example of what a proud human can achieve for her/his independence, for his/her honor. Any such act against oppression is a point that all humanity should be proud of as an example for what we are ALL capable of.

Coming back to the discussion. U.S. claimed that people from Dominic Republic were not developed enough, and they invaded. This is fascism. European countries, France, Belgium, U.K. screwed all third world, north Africa for the same reason: they were superior, more clever, more advanced and the native nations of the lands that they invaded were inferior and wasting the resources. This is fascism. In a lot of countries, women are not given many rights because they are seen as inferior, this is fascism. And simply claiming any superiority of one human over another, is again, fascism. Believe me, I don't give a little bit of damn because you give your examples over Turkish and Armenian comparison. I feel the same frustration for your words, as I did when I first read of Winston Churchill's words: "I do not admit...that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia...by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race...has come in and taken its place".

You know what some "clever" Turks (they also claim Turks are superior to a long list of races, and they also say these are obvious facts) say, my friend? Turks have a small hump at back of their heads. They even provide studies for it. You say Armenians are more clever than Turks. Or they have more talents by birth that Turks envy Armenians. Are you an Armenian my friend? Am I a Turk? I can trace back few generations, what about you? If you are religious you can trace back to Adam at most, or otherwise to the first bacteria. Is the first bacteria Armenian? Or Turkish? Did Adam have a bump too? Or was he a smart guy that makes him not Turkish but more likely to be Armenian? Maybe we are all Chinese origin because first bacteria emerged in somewhere that is Chinese soil today?

What happened during the evolution that Armenians become more clever? If this is anything about what Armenians drink or eat, Turks should have some progress after living together for so long time, right? You say "The Turks have tried to degrade the Armenians and still do, acting as if they were and are much more clever" Who are those people? Do they anything more than just the opposite of the things that you say? Say, somebody forms an Armenian Genocide Denial forum, another person is saying that Turks are smarter, and claiming that Armenians are trying to degrade Turks. He claims that Armenians hit back with the help of the Russian not alone and wrote bravery stories about Turkish side. And when an Armenian guy in the forum asks him "Who are those people saying that Armenians are smarter?" There you are, link of this post. We have the hatred cycle!

I hope this does not hurt you, but I believe you are walking on the edges of fascist/racist thoughts. Your thoughts are just capable of forming its counterparts and ending up ruining the whole world, not confined to Turks and Armenians. I still do not say that you are fascist although you can openly defend a fascist idea saying "That's why I stated this true and perhaps painful fact"

Because I try to empathize as much as I can with your views of Turks. I say "try" because I can only imagine the trauma that you live through with your relationship with Turks. That's why I understand you saying in this post as "few organized but a nation did it", and I do not get mad. What you say is pretty much clear to me that you meant the entire nation, because when you say horse I understand horse, not its legs; when you say orange, I understand the orange not the slices. But when your comment is asked back to you, you say of course you didn't mean the entire nation. I feel it is just like a Turkish using a bad expression with "Armenian" in it. I immediately confront these people for why they use such an expression, regardless of who s/he is. And if they are not one of the xxxxxxx nationalists and did not use the expression deliberately, they look at me with an empty look. As if they also heard what they said for the first time. They just say it without thinking that Armenian actually refers to a human, not a stone. It is just the hatred seeded in cultures of both sides, diffused in the language, expressions. The reasons can be valid or invalid, the validity of the causes has little role to find the remedy to this hatred. This hatred lead you to make generalizations over a nation, in which nowadays people are risking their lives and trying to open up a hole in this darkness of hatred.

I think I shifted a lot in the discussion. When you have a lot to say, this happens I think. Coming back to the main idea: Fascism is not far away from us. It's seeed deep and will flourish before you realize it. If somebody is formulating equations (or inequalities) between two humans, in the next encounter when s/he has the power, s/he also has the potential to replace the evil that s/he curses. Because it's not the race that determines the cruelty as it is not race that determines how clever you are.

Gule gule again!

[Steph]

Just as a reminder, Turkey got its independence after a war against great forces of that time (post WW-1), and with very very limited resources and against armies in magnitudes of the Turkish army (if you except the men of a country that are able to hold a gun as an army).

may,turkey's war of independence wasn't fought against great forces, the Allies at this time were exhausted from WW1, they didn't have many troops in the area and were petrified of mutinies if they deployed more, to fight a war that seemed unjust to the populations at home. Europe was in uproar at this time with Bolsheviks in Russia, communist revolutions in Central Europe, the "power masters" were running scared of the possible backlash against them.

I feel the same frustration for your words, as I did when I first read of Winston Churchill's words: "I do not admit...that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia...by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race...has come in and taken its place".

It's a real shame that you use this particular person to quote. Churchill is honoured as a great statesman and leader.....in reality he is one of the last century's worst characters. The quote you've used is typical of this man.Churchill wasn't just a racist either, he held beliefs that the ruling classes were far superior to lower classes etc. Are you aware that he sent troops against striking British workers, he sent Royal Navy warships into the rivers of major British ports of Glasgow and Liverpool with their main battle guns targetted on the working class districts? This because the government were scared of a Red revolution in Britain. Your sentiment is entirely correct and if we can find a quote in a similar vein from a more respectable statesman, it would carry more weight.

This hatred lead you to make generalizations over a nation, in which nowadays people are risking their lives and trying to open up a hole in this darkness of hatred.
Gule gule again!

You apologized for your post becoming wordy, but the message is loud and clear and emphasised in this last paragraph. I couldn't agree more.

[Sako]

Saying that one human being is superior to another, in whatever context, is fascist-prone. More clever, more brave, more this, more that. These are just generalizations that are totally wrong. And you insist on saying that these are "facts". Facts are like gold my brother, you have to dig deep to find them, you cannot have it by looking from the surface.

Woa, Woa, May, hold your horses. You misunderstood me. I wasn’t saying Turks are useless and Armenians are perfect, I’d be an xxxxxxx if I did. I was saying that Armenians, throughout history, have shown prowess that many, many countries haven’t. And I am talking about a nation, not just a few powerful Armenians. It doesn’t matter who Adam and Eve were or where the Armenians came from. The fact is that Armenians have in the past done very great things that many still can’t believe they did or how they did it. A man is judged by what he has done, not by what he could’ve done. This isn’t fascism, your using that word too often. These are facts. Also, your comparing of Turks in the war and the Armenians in the Genocide isn’t right. These were two different occasions. Many still think today that the Armenians must’ve been made out of stone to come out alive after the Genocide and start again from scrap. And don’t even think for a second that everyone can do the same thing if they hang out enough with each other. A father has two sons that grow up side by side and one becomes more mature then the other. That’s the fact, not that the other could do the same if he wanted. The other brother couldn’t do the same thing, not only because he wasn’t prepared or because he didn’t have the will to do so, but because of the way he thought, the way he lived, the way he handled himself, and finally because of fate and destiny. Not everything is under our control.

The fact that many other countries have had great moments in history is fact but every country has a certain something that makes it special, good and bad. Armenians have been going through centuries of threats, problems, and A LOT more that many countries haven’t gone through. This is fact. Also, throughout history, Armenians have done a lot that many countries haven’t. We are such a small country but we have done so much and anyone that wants to hide this fact is a punk. Our country is special for its talent, for its accepting Christianity first as a religion, for changing the world, YES, changing the world and I can give you millions of other reasons. India is famous for its religion (Especially for its religion and I can give you tons of other reasons, I’ve lived there, I know). Turkey, I don’t really know but I know Turkey has done a lot of bad in the past, A LOT. There is lots of good too though I just haven’t gone deep into Turkish history, forgive me. Anyways, we all have something special.

My point is that Armenia, like/accept it or not, has gone through a lot that many countries might’ve never been able to. I am not fascist when I compare. Armenia has risen from the ashes May, many times in history and many think Armenians boast their heads off and are called fascists when they talk about their past, comparing themselves with others. I’m not talking about you of course but THIS right here is wrong, this mentality. I talk about my past proudly and YES, I compare my past with the past of other countries when needed NOT to make Armenia look better then another country but to simply show where we stand. Comparing is needed at times.

Just as a reminder, Turkey got its independence after a war against great forces of that time (post WW-1), and with very very limited resources and against armies in magnitudes of the Turkish army (if you except the men of a country that are able to hold a gun as an army). I wish somebody had translated Turkish Poet Nazim Hikmet's long poem about the independence war and I could post it here. A poem full of ordinary people's resistance for their land. Turks, Kurds and all others altogether. The victory with poor resources, tens against thousands does not make Turks or Kurds more clever, it was more of a war for glory of independence against imperialist powers, an honorable act, but that's all. History is full of them,

YES, but some acts stand out while the others don’t my friend. You can’t put everything on the same level. Our past is our future if you get what I mean. If we didn’t have a past there wouldn’t be a future. We should face and be proud of our past (if it’s right) and yes, even boast sometimes but not in a degrading way. I didn’t degrade anyone. I’ve heard many Turks say that we as Armenians are nothing compared to the “honorable” Turks and Turkey and I talked about my own honor, my countries honor, which was stolen. Many countries and kings/sultans/leaders have been envious of Armenia May, MANY, MANY, MANY, times in history. People have wanted to get rid of Armenia so many times but it never worked. A few Armenians crushed the invaders who outnumbered them a lot of the time. The will power of Armenians has been very high compared to other countries. I don’t care who could’ve done what, the fact is my country did it. Call me whatever you want. Many are jealous when Armenians say what I say, thinking they degrade other countries. Let those people feel good about their past if they want, no ones stopping them. It’s not my fault some people feel idiotic when they remember their past. The difference between me and fanatic nationalists or fascists is that I share the feelings of my brothers and sisters out there, I don’t feel puffed up that my country has done things that others haven’t but neither do I degrade my own kin. I judge all with an equal eye. Armenia has done things I’m not proud of whatsoever. You misunderstand how I say what I say. I’m not this angry Armenian, lol.

with different methods and perspectives. Algerians against French, Indians against British and many more. That does not make any nation superior, but puts an example of what a proud human can achieve for her/his independence, for his/her honor. Any such act against oppression is a point that all humanity should be proud of as an example for what we are ALL capable of.

NO May, sorry, you’re wrong here. EVERYONE is not capable just like a person born with defects isn’t capable to do the same things a person born properly can. By saying this you simply show your jealousy. Forgive me if I’m wrong. I know what you’re saying but you misunderstand me. What I say are facts and I am simply proud, not over my head or fascist. The thing is I acknowledge what many other countries have done too, not just mine, and I think to myself that there are many things we as Armenians couldn’t have done. Not only because we weren’t able to perhaps in the same way but because God gave the opportunity to others. My country is the world May, not Armenia. I’m not a nationalist. Hell, sometimes I don’t even consider myself Armenian.

"I do not admit...that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia...by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race...has come in and taken its place".

This is wrong, absolutely, but I wasn’t talking in this manner May. You just got excited and began to explain what fascism is. Drop the word fascism from your mouth my friend, because you aren’t talking to a fascist.

You know what some "clever" Turks (they also claim Turks are superior to a long list of races, and they also say these are obvious facts) say, my friend? Turks have a small hump at back of their heads. They even provide studies for it. You say Armenians are more clever than Turks. Or they have more talents by birth that Turks envy Armenians. Are you an Armenian my friend? Am I a Turk? I can trace back few generations, what about you? If you are religious you can trace back to Adam at most, or otherwise to the first bacteria. Is the first bacteria Armenian? Or Turkish? Did Adam have a bump too? Or was he a smart guy that makes him not Turkish but more likely to be Armenian? Maybe we are all Chinese origin because first bacteria emerged in somewhere that is Chinese soil today?

Completely different topic. May, if I am born Armenian, living in Armenia, a very old civilization that has done things many other countries haven’t then, who or which race is called smarter or more powerful? There have been many small civilizations we don’t even know of nowadays that didn’t survive. They existed alongside the Armenians with the same abilities (if I’m not mistaken) but Armenia survived while they didn’t. Many civilizations didn’t survive while Armenia became famous. You simply think that any country could’ve done what Armenia did and that’s where your wrong just like any country couldn’t have wiped out an entire race in three years. It’s not just the ability to do something; it’s doing it that makes you different. I compared Armenians with Turks because many Turks feel sometimes up in the clouds. Armenia has never been weak, Armenians have never been weak. They have done great things and I can compare them with people that haven’t. That makes me a fascist? You are a great singer, I’m not. If someone compares you with me saying your better, that makes him a fascist? It’s simply fact which I DID NOT say in a degrading way. That’s what doesn’t make me a fascist.

You say "The Turks have tried to degrade the Armenians and still do, acting as if they were and are much more clever" Who are those people?

People you don’t wanna know!

…. an Armenian guy in the forum asks him "Who are those people saying that Armenians are smarter?" There you are, link of this post. We have the hatred cycle!

Is that what you think, that I said everything I did with hatred in my mind?

I hope this does not hurt you, but I believe you are walking on the edges of fascist/racist thoughts. Your thoughts are just capable of forming its counterparts and ending up ruining the whole world, not confined to Turks and Armenians. I still do not say that you are fascist although you can openly defend a fascist idea saying "That's why I stated this true and perhaps painful fact"

It would take much more then that to hurt me, lol, don’t worry. You have free will bro, think what you will, I didn’t say anything wrong or with fascism in mind. You didn’t understand me right, case closed.

Because I try to empathize as much as I can with your views of Turks. I say "try" because I can only imagine the trauma that you live through with your relationship with Turks.

What trauma do you talk about May? You don’t even know me. You seriously have the wrong picture.

Because it's not the race that determines the cruelty as it is not race that determines how clever you are.

Yes but you live in that race, you are part of that race. Of course, not everyone in that race is as clever perhaps but they are part of that race just like you are part of your family. There are things that people in a race, in a population, have in common. There are habits that almost all Armenians have in common for example. There is a lot that depends on where you are from. This must be acknowledged. That’s why I’m saying once again to anyone that thinks Armenia has been weak or anything. Many times in history, Armenians have shown more prowess then people from other countries have been able to (that means Turkey too). This doesn’t mean that Turks are weaker then us, I’m just saying who we are. Let Turks be proud of whatever great things they have done. I will join and feel happy for them. We all must learn from each other but still remember who WE are. We may be individual people but in this life time we are born in a certain “house”, having become a part of it, living by its rules and being a part of its history. I am proud but I respect all others as well, never degrading anyone, accepting the facts, but still neither degrading my own country. It is not a question of superiority.

Gule Gule.

[may]

Few things to clear first for Steph: I did not make out a war story about number of armies, great powers meant the big actors of the time. I just wanted to emphasize that winning a war in poor conditions do not make anyone cleverer, as Saco somewhat implied in his post. Still I believe in the honor of people's (strip the Turkish identity of the people if that makes everyone feel better) resistance to the imperial actors, regardless of how weak the big forces were.

For you Saco, while talking so much of your nation and country, how it is superior (avoiding the word "superior" by saying "comparison" is very much like the tactics used while ignoring Armenian Genocide), your claim of "sometimes not even feeling Armenian" is very much contradictory. That being said, all nations have glorious histories as they are told by their grandparents. Actually as a part of nation-building process, some of these stories are invented, or exaggerated. I do not know of your sources but I recommend to question them (Personally I very much do). I prefer believing in none and always put the human proud that resists the oppression to my focus point.

Yes, I envy some people, but maybe a group of people doing honorable acts but not a particular nation overall. Your way of telling that I may be subconsciously jealous is... funny...! I do not know any other word that fits better...

But the serious thing is (this is strictly my opinion) you are wandering on the borders of fascist thoughts, regardless of you accept or deny it. I emphasized many times in my posts that fascism seeds are buried deep in the world but quick to flourish. Pure denial does not provide any solutions. You probably made such claims many times in this forum. I am just asking you to consider on what we discussed a bit more. Being a world citizen is demanding my friend, it is not as easy as it comes out of your mouth or keyboard.

Before forgetting:

What trauma do you talk about May? You don’t even know me. You seriously have the wrong picture.

By "trauma" I meant the historical pain of Armenian people due to the genocide and its implications on collective memory of Armenians. No negative meaning intended.

[Alexandros]

Few things to clear first for Steph: I did not make out a war story about number of armies, great powers meant the big actors of the time. I just wanted to emphasize that winning a war in poor conditions do not make anyone cleverer, as Saco somewhat implied in his post. Still I believe in the honor of people's (strip the Turkish identity of the people if that makes everyone feel better) resistance to the imperial actors, regardless of how weak the big forces were.

For you Saco, while talking so much of your nation and country, how it is superior (avoiding the word "superior" by saying "comparison" is very much like the tactics used while ignoring Armenian Genocide), your claim of "sometimes not even feeling Armenian" is very much contradictory. That being said, all nations have glorious histories as they are told by their grandparents. Actually as a part of nation-building some of these stories are invented, or exaggerated. I do not know of your sources but I recommend to question them (Personally I very much do). I prefer believing in none and always put the human proud that resists the oppression to my focus point.

Yes, I envy some people, but maybe a group of people doing honorable acts but not a particular nation overall. Your way of telling that I may be subconsciously jealous is... funny...! I do not know any other word that fits better...

But the serious thing is (this is strictly my opinion) you are wandering on the borders of fascist thoughts, regardless of you accept or deny it. I emphasized many times in my posts that fascism seeds are buried deep in the world but quick to flourish. Pure denial does not provide any solutions. You probably made such claims many times in this forum. I am just asking you to consider on what we discussed a bit more. Being a world citizen is demanding my friend, it is not as easy as it comes out of your mouth or keyboard.

Before forgetting:



By "trauma" I meant the historical pain of Armenian people due to the genocide and its implications on collective memory of Armenians. No negative meaning intended.

may, you did actually forget something at the end of your post:

"Gule gule"

j/k

By the way, welcome to the forum may!

[may]

may, you did actually forget something at the end of your post:

"Gule gule"

j/k

By the way, welcome to the forum may!

Because I read the forum rules saying "no language other than Armenian and English". I was going to oppose but they were also rules against challenging the forum rules

[Alexandros]

Because I read the forum rules saying "no language other than Armenian and English". I was going to oppose but they were also rules against challenging the forum rules

Really?LOL.I didn`t know about that.Anyone here who speaks Greek?

[Steph]

Really?LOL.I didn`t know about that.Anyone here who speaks Greek?

ti kanis?

[bell-the-cat]

Just as a reminder, Turkey got its independence after a war against great forces of that time (post WW-1), and with very very limited resources and against armies in magnitudes of the Turkish army (if you except the men of a country that are able to hold a gun as an army). I wish somebody had translated Turkish Poet Nazim Hikmet's long poem about the independence war and I could post it here. A poem full of ordinary people's resistance for their land. Turks, Kurds and all others altogether. The victory with poor resources, tens against thousands does not make Turks or Kurds more clever, it was more of a war for glory of independence against imperialist powers, an honorable act, but that's all.

Wrong. Turkey fought against Greece - a country with no military tradition almost no officer class, and no properly thought-out strategy or end-goals, and a belief that ten Greeks are worth one Turk. Not surprisingly, Turkey won a complete victory, the only surprising bit is it took so long for Turkey to do it.

[Alexandros]

ti kanis?

Ola kala steph.Esi ti kanis file mou?

Oh, oh.I hope Joseph doesn`t read our posts.