Ataturks statue in Israel

[bell-the-cat]

It's a real shame that you use this particular person to quote. Churchill is honoured as a great statesman and leader.....in reality he is one of the last century's worst characters. The quote you've used is typical of this man.Churchill wasn't just a racist either, he held beliefs that the ruling classes were far superior to lower classes etc. Are you aware that he sent troops against striking British workers, he sent Royal Navy warships into the rivers of major British ports of Glasgow and Liverpool with their main battle guns targetted on the working class districts? This because the government were scared of a Red revolution in Britain. Your sentiment is entirely correct and if we can find a quote in a similar vein from a more respectable statesman, it would carry more weight.

I see you are still squatting in a country you know nothing about, spouting rubbish that even a spoilt-brat schoolboy would be embarassed to speak.

[chinchilla]

I see you are still squatting in a country you know nothing about, spouting rubbish that even a spoilt-brat schoolboy would be embarassed to speak.

In case you haven't noticed, he's English.

[Steph]

Wrong. Turkey fought against Greece - a country with no military tradition almost no officer class, and no properly thought-out strategy or end-goals, and a belief that ten Greeks are worth one Turk. Not surprisingly, Turkey won a complete victory, the only surprising bit is it took so long for Turkey to do it.

The title for this "War of Independence" is a complete crock as well. As if turkey had shaken off the shackles of an imperial power. In reality, the republic was just a child of the ottoman empire.
Whilst the victorious powers of WW1 all had a presence in turkey at war's end and they all wanted to stay, they knew that they couldn't because of long standing rivalries between themselves.

[Alexandros]

Wrong. Turkey fought against Greece - a country with no military tradition almost no officer class, and no properly thought-out strategy or end-goals, and a belief that ten Greeks are worth one Turk. Not surprisingly, Turkey won a complete victory, the only surprising bit is it took so long for Turkey to do it.

I mostly agree.But even if King Constantine would have managed to win the war there was never a chance to keep Minor Asia in Greek hands.It would only have been a matter of time before the Turks would have revolted against Greek rule and we all know how that would have ended.

[bell-the-cat]

Do you deny warships in the Mersey & Clyde?
Do you deny troops deployed against striking workers?
You really are a piece of work xxxxx.

Do you deny reading the "Little Socialist's Bumper History Book for Boys of all Ages".

[Steph]

I see you are still squatting in a country you know nothing about, spouting rubbish that even a spoilt-brat schoolboy would be embarassed to speak.

http://www.liverpooltimes.net/2007/12/13/liverpool-police-strike-1919-gunboats-up-the-mersey/

http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/redclyeve14.htm

http://libcom.org/history/1910-cambrian-combine-miners-strike-and-tonypandy-riot

http://www.pcworks.demon.co.uk/magazine/documents/zzwinstonc.htm

[bell-the-cat]

I mostly agree.But even if King Constantine would have managed to win the war there was never a chance to keep Minor Asia in Greek hands.It would only have been a matter of time before the Turks would have revolted against Greek rule and we all know how that would have ended.

Yes, no matter how many individual battles Greece won against Turkey, it would never have got an overall victory - and any Greek defeat risked being a defeat that would loose the whole war. And to loose the war meant loosing everything.

I think it is the same with Armenia against Azerbaijan, btw.

[Steph]

Do you deny reading the "Little Socialist's Bumper History Book for Boys of all Ages".

No I used that as a cat litter.

[Steph]

In case you haven't noticed, he's English.

Chinchilla, he's usually got his head where cats usually have them.

[phantom]

Great points May and Saco.

May, I think I understand you. Ideas like "my people did this, and my people did that, and my people are better or smarter, etc." all of these may start innocent, but it's a slippery slope down to the depths of racist nationalism. It reminds me of the Russian skinheads in Moscow who have murdered dozens of Caucasian people just this year, including many Armenians and Azeris.

On the other hand, small nations like Armenians and Jews have little choice but to maintain some distance between themselves and everyone else, otherwise they will be consumed and disappear. This is a fact. Why do Armenians have their own strange language and alphabet and even religion? Because if we didn't, there would be no such thing as an Armenian today. Whatever customs, culture and heritage was created over the centuries would be lost, because we would have melted into our neighbors who were always more numerous. Some may feel there is no value in our customs, culture and heritage, or the customs, culture and heritage of any small nation. And if that's what they believe then they cannot understand why people like Armenians have created certain barriers like their language, alphabet and religion. But that's not my view, and that's not the view of the majority of people who call themselves Armenians.

Also, because we are small and seemingly insignificant in this world, we have no choice but to remind ourselves of the accomplishments of our ancestors and our people. I mean, unless we're going to school in Armenia, none of us in Turkey or in the diaspora are learning anything about our history from our school teachers or from popular culture. So we grow up, at least in Turkey and the diaspora, believing we are unimportant, and nobody knows or cares anything about us. I'm sure it's different in Armenia, but keep in mind that more than half of the world's population lives outside Armenia. To compensate for this, our parents and priests and Sunday school teachers try to teach us that we are somebody, that our ancestors made contributions in this world and that we still make contributions in this world. We don't have a government of 70 million people indoctrinating us with nationalist feelings. Instead, that's what we have, our parents and priests and Sunday school teachers, and that's it. And believe me, we need it, because otherwise we would feel like xxxx. Our great-grandparents were all murdered; the people that live in the land we come from think we're scum; Russians (keep in mind 2 million of us live in Russia) look down on us and think we are inferior to them; and everywhere else, except maybe France, we are a tiny minority the majority rarely ever thinks about. So, unless someone had told me that my people aren't nobodies, that they built the grandest structures in Constantinople, that they not only invented their own unique alphabet but also gave the Turkish people their modern alphabet, that they were the most prolific builders of ancient churches and monasteries in Asia Minor, that they were the greatest merchants and traders on the silk road, that among them were the men who built such places as modern Hong Kong, if somebody doesn't tell me these things, then I would grow up thinking I'm from some people that never did anything and that isn't worth preserving. So, as a Turk growing up in Turkey, you have the benefit and privilege of complaining that being boastful of one's nationality or ethnic background is wandering on the border of fascism, because you grow up in a system of 70+ million people who are taught about all of the glories of the Turkish people. The same is true of all of these large nations, like Germany, the UK, France, and Italy. But for us small nations, especially when the majority of us aren't even growing up in our mother country, we need it just to have feeling that whatever we are is at least worth preserving. We're not learning about our "glories" so that we can grow to conquer anyone and become fascists. We're learning them just so we can hold on a little longer to who we are. And you know what, Saco is right; Armenians, even if we don't learn it every day in school like everyone else in big countries, we still have a lot in our history of which to be proud, and if we have to boast about it once in a while among ourselves just so we can maintain our heritage and not disappear, then I see nothing wrong with that.

And finally, May, Hos geldin!