Discussion Thread

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Has anthing been done to curb Azerbaijan's influence, whats their standing at the moment internationally, are the Armenians still brutally oppressed in the region.
Once again sorry if I ask stupid questions, but I don't know the Azeri situation too well.

[imported_ferdi]

It puzzles me why the "official turkey" should bother what other countries do or not do, if turkey were a suspect in a criminal case, it's behaviour screams guilty.

I often wonder about this myself. The only explanation I can up with is that it's a reflection of national psyche that comes from feeling threatened. It can't just be guilty behaviour, innocent people are also known to exhibit strange behaviour.

Whilst not being any great protector of the US, which country would be the right one for passing moral judgements? Where is this blessed nation?

No where Steph. To quote the bible (my first and last time):

"let he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

[imported_ferdi]

Has anthing been done to curb Azerbaijan's influence, whats their standing at the moment internationally, are the Armenians still brutally oppressed in the region.
Once again sorry if I ask stupid questions, but I don't know the Azeri situation too well.

Quite the contrary amigo, Azerbaijan's status is likely to be elevated in the next decade as the darling of the West. One reason only: Oil (aka black gold). And with increased wealth comes status, friends and influence. As my friend Tony Montana likes to say:
"..you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women."

This could prove all very problematic for resource poor Armenia in the future.

[phantom]

Quite the contrary amigo, Azerbaijan's status is likely to be elevated in the next decade as the darling of the West. One reason only: Oil (aka black gold). And with increased wealth comes status, friends and influence. As my friend Tony Montana likes to say:
"..you gotta make the money first. Then when you get the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, then you get the women."

This could prove all very problematic for resource poor Armenia in the future.

Ferdi, Armenia is not resource poor. It has resourceful people all around the world. That's a resource that will never dry up. Azeri oil will dry up in 100 years. To give you a small example, in this year of enormous economic malaise, the Armenia Fund raised $40,000,000 for Armenia almost exclusively from diasporan Armenians. That was more than double what was raised last year. And that in a year in which the world is teatering on an economic depression.

[Steph]

Has anthing been done to curb Azerbaijan's influence, whats their standing at the moment internationally, are the Armenians still brutally oppressed in the region.
Once again sorry if I ask stupid questions, but I don't know the Azeri situation too well.

No Armenians left in azerbad,jan. Pedro, look up posts here on Artsakh, Nagorno Karabagh, azerbad,jan, Baku. Also, google as well.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

CIA World factbook statistics :

Azeri 90.6%, Dagestani 2.2%, Russian 1.8%, Armenian 1.5%, other 3.9% (1999 census)
note: almost all Armenians live in the separatist Nagorno-Karabakh region.

I remember somewhere there used to be waayyyy more Armenians, especially Baku, which I know from historic documents and biographies, so I take it then that Armenians were deported during the Artsakh situation to Armenia.

I dunno about their influence so much however (Azerbaijan) from what I hear alot of people aren't too happy with the goings on in the country :

current situation: Azerbaijan is primarily a source and transit country for men, women, and children trafficked for the purposes of commercial sexual exploitation and forced labor; women and some children from Azerbaijan are trafficked to Turkey and the UAE for the purpose of sexual exploitation; men and boys are trafficked to Russia for the purpose of forced labor; Azerbaijan serves as a transit country for victims from Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, and Moldova trafficked to Turkey and the UAE for sexual exploitation
tier rating: Tier 2 Watch List - Azerbaijan is on the Tier 2 Watch List for its failure to provide evidence of increasing efforts to combat trafficking in persons, particularly efforts to investigate, prosecute, and punish traffickers; to address complicity among law enforcement personnel; and to adequately identify and protect victims in Azerbaijan; the government has yet to develop a much-needed mechanism to identify potential trafficking victims and refer them to safety and care; poor treatment of trafficking victims in courtrooms continues to be a problem (2008)

[Sako]

Nevertheless, give Lal some credit for her analysis of geopolitical realities.

And who hasn’t been giving credit, Ferdi? I’ve been giving her credit all this time.

I also feel that the best path to achieve recognition is to start at the grassroots level (a bottom up approach if you like) where individuals through collective pressure force the government to come to terms with its own history. Quite honestly this is the only way I can see the reconciliation process starting.

What you don’t seem to understand is that we CAN’T do this right now. Not that we CAN and don’t but we CAN’T. Can you understand that? If you don’t then this conversation is pointless, Ferdi.

What won't happen:

Expecting the Turkish government to unilaterally acknowledge – never going to happen.

Expecting the Turkish government to acknowledge due to external political pressure i.e. Obama, French congress, EU etc – never going to happen (and even if they did, the acknowledgement wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on).

Expecting direct compensation, transfer payments or ceding territory to Armenia – never going to happen.

Expecting an apology for perpetrating the genocide – never going to happen (but see below).

Seems more like a “Do not do list” rather then a “Won’t happen list”. And I can tell you why.

What will happen (hopefully sooner rather than later):

Recognition (without admission to guilt to limit any possible legal liability).

And you call this recognition? Look up the word recognition in a normal dictionary on the net and make sure it’s not from Turkey.

Improvement in conditions and rights of Armenian and other minorities residing in Turkey as a result of recognition.

That will happen naturally.

Protection and restoration of cultural and religious sites.

Naturally.

Regional security and trade/access guarantees to Armenia.

Naturally.

Goodwill gestures - Mt Ararat, right of return for diaspora etc.

Turkey is afraid of this issue so I doubt it will be easy but it will come up RIGHT AFTER recognition.

Apology for "denying" the genocide.

Well, this simply shows what happens when a person doesn’t read and simply talks. You really don’t understand what I’ve been saying for ages. If Turkey apologizes for “denying” the Genocide, why can’t it apologize for THE Genocide? It’s almost the same thing but your famous marginalizing techniques come into play once again. I think this is a habit in Turks. They should (the real Turks) and WILL apologize for THE Genocide and I personally don’t care how they feel because they have no feelings. Why do you make it easy for them? I really don’t understand. This issue shouldn’t and can’t be dealt without great care and seriousness. Your list almost felt like it came from the real Turks we’re fighting everyday, which is a bad joke we laughed at years back. No one needs simple recognition. Instead of saying, “We’ll have to work harder to get things straight” you say “Take what we give, no buts” and I say “Get your head on straight”. We’re talking about Genocide here, not one of Turkey’s minor problems. This is the biggest problem Turkey has right now and she won’t come out from under it without facing TRUE justice which she is afraid of, which she deserves, and which she has the ability to do, don’t doubt that. I will wait and wait and wait, working my ass off, but I will get a proper apology and see my ancestors remembered PROPERLY. Your country has done TOO much. That is more important then your countries lousy recognition. I'll kill all of the Turks, I'll kill your family, your friends, your relatives, your children, your parents, I'll rape and burn the people you love, and then I'll simply apologize and not properly but rather for simply "denying" the Genocide. How would you feel, Ferdi, huh? You forget what we’re fighting for here and it’s not simply recognition. Understand that cold, hard fact Ferdi.

And Lal, you didn’t answer my letter again and I don’t know what to say. I guess I’ll just have to keep answering to a wall.

turkish state may catagorize armenians,but ım not doing that. actually ım not catagorizing nobody.

if ı were an armenian ,maybe ı would be very against all dialogs with turks and only desire to harm turkey.

if ı were an american armenian,probably ı would love to hear president calling it a genocide and dont think much about the consequences of it,in turkey and erivan.

if ı was a turkish mother and my son was killed in pkk fights, ı probably feel no symphaty to kurds and join turkish nationalists.

ı dont claim that there is only my path is correct. ı only write what ı think best for us.

we are the products of our envirenment. ı happen to be a peaceful turk because ı have not witnessed any undesirable acts in my life. thats why ı can feel the pains of others from my heart.

ı dont see you people as foreigners. you are my old neighbours. ı want all of you come back here.so simple.

and even if these are dreams,what is wrong with dreaming?

The fact that you can dream forever and see nothing happen. I’m not dreaming, I’m trying to make all this a reality. If you were talking about a dream, you should’ve told me. Now I understand why you couldn’t understand me. Also, it be nice if you said even a single word to me after all I said in my last post instead of going, “Talk to the hand”.

I apologize if I got a bit graphic or offended anyone but I think I found out the problem, WHY we don't seem to understand each other.

[Sako]

What you mean Obama is against word Genocide? I heard on varicose occasions him pronouncing that word in description of AG.

Vahe Jan, I meant that he is going against Genocide as a whole, not only the Armenian Genocide. That’s why Obama’s plan might work and if the Turks say anything, the world will be pissed because it will be like saying, “Hey, why are you going against Genocide?” Many Turks are still on that level too, trust me, whether they know it yet or not.

Anyway, if other countries wants to recognize the AG they have every right to do that.If that pisses of the public opinion in Turkey then that is their problem.Who gave a xxxx about Greece and their public opinion when Turkey and many other countries recognized FYROM with the name "Macedonia"?

Quoted for truth and that’s exactly my point. We can’t be sympathetic, not after what’s happening NOWADAYS, not only in the past. Turkey doesn’t deserve sympathy, it doesn’t understand that word.

Lastly, if ordinary Armenians and Turks could start building bridges between their countries and their people - whether it`s on the net or in other ways - then that should be welcomed.However if other countries wants to recognize the AG - whether the Turks like it or not - they have every right to do that!

And the Turks should be happy (those that believe us). I don’t care what anyone thinks, give me one reason why I should. We have the Turks cornered which wouldn’t be possible without world wide recognition.

[VaheTheGreat(e)]

That's it exactly. Armenian diaspora activists in America, grown fat on easy pickings from their community, want the pot to start calling the kettle black. Given that the pot considers itself to be spotless, it is a worthless gesture. How many millions of people has America killed over the past few decades. Far more than Turkey during WW1. Over half of the American electorate voted for Bush when his criminal actions were clear to the rest of the world. Almost half still voted Republican in the last election (though the slimy Obama was responsible for some of that). Far more than half were in favour of their country's military adventures when things were going well. They have no guilt, they show no remorse. Maybe if America were to start to apologise for its own substantial crimes, Turkey will start to apologise for its. Americas state-level denial of the Armenian genocide has little to do with Turkey, it is mostly to do with lack of honour amongst American politicians - the same people whose belated recognition of the genocide Armenians seem to think will be so valuable.

Comparing US administration with young Turks is silly and at least exaggerated... how many millions Americans have killed? The civil casualties in Iraq or all hotspots together never reach even couple of hundred thousands... I do not try to defend US aggressive foreign policy but if we talk about moral side: do you compare Americans with Turks? That is really stupid...

[hipeter924]

The big players on the world stage would never let this happen, with military tension in strategic areas of the world they're able to play their games of "ally and enemy", switching to whichever is expedient at the time, feeding their military industries and attempting to control the dwindling resources of this planet. Armenia has been cursed by it's geographic position since 3,ooo years, turkey thinks it's been blessed by it's strategic position but I think it's been doubly cursed.
the emphasis is rightly on turkey for recognition but I don't believe azerbad,jan will ever repent,recant or change, if anything they will get worse and become more outrageous.

*sigh

Well time well tell. Maybe in 1 million years time they might at least change for the good somewhere?