What should Turkey be proud of?

[Haykakan]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

I think you guys are missing a important point. It is not the armenians who closed the border and stopped "dialogue", it was the turcks. I think what really speaks volumes is the fact that the topic of this thread is what turckey should be proud of and i went back a few pages worth of posts in this thread and found absolutly nothing turcks can be proud of.When it comes down to facts people dont visit turckey becaus they like its people or its culture they visit it because of the land it occupies. They go to the ocean side relax and go home.Some may marvel at the anciant architecture which is built by either greeks or armenians and cant be credited as things turckey can be proud of.The only things that the turckish nation has done that i would say deserves some positive recognition is its secular stance but as we all know thats going down the toilet, the other is its mighty army it manages to maintain but that of course is tainted with the blood of so many innocent and repressed people.The turkish nation came into existence with the sword, they kept power and expanded with the sword so the sword is all they know and have and pretty much anything els either cultural or engineering or sciense related that happened in turckey was done by the opressed races that lived there or races who are now extinct in anatolia. If you can please prove me wrong otherwise this thread is a joke.

[Sako]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Haykakan jan, although I agree with you mostly, let me explain why this thread was started so it doesn't seem like a joke to you. It's only two pages, I apologize if it's a bit long. I know this thread came as a surprise to all of you, just the way I expected. If anyone thinks of me as a racist, Turk, etc. after this, they are simply naive fools searching for a way to degrade me not realizing who their dealing with.

I started this thread because:

1. I've heard so many people talk about Turkish pride and how great and wonderful Turkey is. I wanted to understand what that really is, that pride, and get a taste of all that wonder which is spoken of so often to understand how the other side thinks. This I'm sure is a question that not only I ask so this was one way to attract more people to come in and talk about this subject and perhaps even get a few difficult questions asked/answered. Next, let's remember that many Turks don't know that many things that they have in their hands belongs to them only because of the Armenians, the Greeks, etc. So, naturally, we might’ve been able to even get some information/truth out there, inform anyone that didn't know the true history, and learn something along the way ourselves. All this in a peaceful manner, not aggressively. Verbal wars won't get us anywhere. If they have to take place then only when crucial. Anger is also a feeling and Armenians have every right to be mad. The problem is that the Turkish nationalists we fight against so emotionally take advantage of all our anger and hate and everything else and use it against us in very ridiculous ways. They show first-timers hearing about the AG and Armenia for the first time how uncivilized we are and how civilized THEY are. What the first-timers don’t know is that it was the “civilized” relatives of the Turkish people that murdered 1.5 million people, not to mention so many others along the way. So, let us show everyone how civilized we are and get our message out without looking like fools. That is my only honest wish, opinion, and suggestion. I also feel anger, I also feel pain, I also fight every day for a better future, the only difference is that I don’t crazily wave my Armenian flag around and holler the truth because I know no one was, is, or ever will listen to me.

Right now, we have to think ten times before taking one step and I can see how well some of our Armenian brethren are taking their steps. So many Armenians have understood what I’m saying and so many haven’t. And this has nothing to do with “helping Turkey”. Truth is, we are helping our nation and facing this issue much more cleverly. Guns and nationalistic shouts won’t get us anywhere. Everyone’s tired of all that and truly, that gets us nowhere and aids the Turks more then ever, trust me, I’m not the only one that has come to realize this. This is my honest opinion; the rest is up to all of you.

2. In my family, you get to meet all types of people and I don't mean just anyone. On many occasions, I've heard on forums, at home, and in many, many interesting places, including different countries, that Turkey doesn't have much to be proud of. It's not that everyone who said those words hated Turkey as a whole and wanted to Nuke her, don't get the wrong idea. They were simply talking about facts. I wanted to dwell deeper, not believing that a nation accommodating 70 million people didn’t have anything to be proud of throughout history or today. Plus I wanted to see who Turkey is as a nation actually. I wanted to find out what Turks everyday feel, what their way of thinking is, what they are taught, etc. and perhaps find a way to help our cause in a more effective way and the new generation that is forced to pay for what some pitiful leaders planned. I didn't do this because of my love for Turkey, lol, I did this for educational purposes, for my site which I'm working on day and night (along with many other people from different countries), and to look back at history a bit and learn something as well. There is so much I don’t know and I don’t give up a chance to learn.

3. Like I said above, I did this for my site, for educational purposes, and to also perhaps show the true side of history to those who didn't know or were taught rubbish. To give away the site a bit more, I'll simply explain how these facts were to be used.

There will be a page called Two Worlds where Armenia and Turkey will be presented as two separate nations and without politics involved. Everything, starting from the music, culture, language, etc. of the two nations will be presented in great detail and in more then one language. Now, there is a special section called "Great facts about Armenia". That's easy to work on because Armenia has tons of things to be proud of. Turkey is another story. I realized that I have no idea what Turkey has to be proud of, as a nation. What would I fill in the "Great facts about Turkey" page? I have very, very little, which can be considered as nothing at all. Some of you may ask why I'm presenting Turkey and not only Armenia. I'll tell you why, because this site is not an Armenian site, it is a far more advanced site. More international you can say. All the Genocides of the world will be presented and we've come up with ways to make our history (and the history of many other nations) more believable (especially for a first-timer), clearer, simpler, and you can say a very entertaining learning experience. Since the AG was the first Genocide of the 20th Century, the site is based on the AG, Armenia, and Turkey (and because me and most of the founders are Armenian ) . The AG was the inspiration that got me to start this massive project so it’s naturally under the spotlight.

Here's the powerful aspect of the Two Worlds page. Most people have no idea about Turkey OR Armenia, what a connection they have had together in the past. So, now I am presenting them as two nations ... TWO WORLDS. After getting a better idea of these two nations, people will get a better look at the bigger picture + Armenians and Turks will know each other much better then before and this page will hopefully help us look at history and each other in a new way. Most Armenians and Turks don't have a clue about each other and if we want to clear this issue and many other issues up, we'll have to know each other much better. Once a clueless person enters the Two Worlds page, everything will change or should I say ... everything will begin, if you know what I mean. It will be a fresh start for most.

This is only a small part of the site. There is much more to it and I hope it will help in some way, be it small or big. I didn't expect everyone to understand me or this thread and I didn’t expect people to smile. I knew they would call me racist, evil, etc. but you have to try real hard to get anything done and must look out of the box, at the bigger picture and definitely beyond the criticism. I'm trying my best with a lot of people out there, and having my own people call me and my friends racist or a Turk isn't helping at all, not that it really matters. I know what my goal is, what family I have been raised in, who I am, what I believe, etc. and how many people believe in me and work their asses every day to get something done. CA's mission is to bring people from all nations together, not just Armenians and Turks. Turkey and Armenia are simply two pieces of the puzzle. If we want to get ANYTHING done, anything at all, we have to look out of the box and for already about four months, people of all ages, pros and newbie’s alike, have been coming together from all over, including Armenia, to fight for a better future. If that's not worth fighting for .... What is?

That’s pretty much how the cookie crumbles !

[may]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

I think you guys are missing a important point. It is not the armenians who closed the border and stopped "dialogue", it was the turcks. I think what really speaks volumes is the fact that the topic of this thread is what turckey should be proud of and i went back a few pages worth of posts in this thread and found absolutly nothing turcks can be proud of.When it comes down to facts people dont visit turckey becaus they like its people or its culture they visit it because of the land it occupies. They go to the ocean side relax and go home.Some may marvel at the anciant architecture which is built by either greeks or armenians and cant be credited as things turckey can be proud of.The only things that the turckish nation has done that i would say deserves some positive recognition is its secular stance but as we all know thats going down the toilet, the other is its mighty army it manages to maintain but that of course is tainted with the blood of so many innocent and repressed people.The turkish nation came into existence with the sword, they kept power and expanded with the sword so the sword is all they know and have and pretty much anything els either cultural or engineering or sciense related that happened in turckey was done by the opressed races that lived there or races who are now extinct in anatolia. If you can please prove me wrong otherwise this thread is a joke.

Haykakan, why do Turks have to disprove a paragraph of personal statements that you write, otherwise that means there is nothing to be proud of for Turks? Why not first you starting with "proving" what you say other than your personal thoughts? Or should I say prejudices?

Then, there may be things to disprove or approve. Personal statements are personal statements, and proofs are for more scientific statements.

[gmd]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

I think you guys are missing a important point. It is not the armenians who closed the border and stopped "dialogue", it was the turcks. I think what really speaks volumes is the fact that the topic of this thread is what turckey should be proud of and i went back a few pages worth of posts in this thread and found absolutly nothing turcks can be proud of.When it comes down to facts people dont visit turckey becaus they like its people or its culture they visit it because of the land it occupies. They go to the ocean side relax and go home.Some may marvel at the anciant architecture which is built by either greeks or armenians and cant be credited as things turckey can be proud of.The only things that the turckish nation has done that i would say deserves some positive recognition is its secular stance but as we all know thats going down the toilet, the other is its mighty army it manages to maintain but that of course is tainted with the blood of so many innocent and repressed people.The turkish nation came into existence with the sword, they kept power and expanded with the sword so the sword is all they know and have and pretty much anything els either cultural or engineering or sciense related that happened in turckey was done by the opressed races that lived there or races who are now extinct in anatolia. If you can please prove me wrong otherwise this thread is a joke.

Exactly!
Lav asetzir.

[gmd]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

The past will never be just the past and nothing will ever be forgotten, I have a feeling that Saco knows this very well.

I say Armenians must feel the duty to enforced Hrant Dink’s message to Turks when he said in an interview “…Turks must have an awakening from within…”
I don’t know about the rest of you but I happen to believe this theory.
You cannot expect anything from Turks like the things you mentioned until this freaking enlightenment happens and starts raining down on their leaders.
Our young generation like Saco and our Mexican friend Pedro can fight the important part of the battle effectively on Internet (with a good chance of success)…and they can use all the help they can get from cool collective heads with a clear mission without prejudice or malice. This is no easy task they face and they are well aware of the Turkish lies, tricks, and attacks. One cannot take this task personally and yet one cannot force it down the Turkish throat. They must make them understand that this is not just an Armenian problem but a Turkish Problem that must be solved.

This is not opening your arms to Turks as you say but an attempt to help open the young Turkish generation’s minds before it is fully corrupt by the Turkish Propaganda Machine…or at least make them question.

Not everyone wants the same things as Saco and you. I do not speak for anyone but myself. My view is that since I do not see any substantive change in the Turkish state and the culture it projects then I have nothing to base trust on. I have no delusions about Armenian Republic or Diaspora ability to change that. So all that is left is to preserve the memory and emotion behind it. I am not interested in any kumbayas.

[Haykakan]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Saco i don't question your motive as to why you started this forum. To be honest i wanted to see what the turcks would write myself. Just imagine if a similar thread was made about armenians it would go on forever.As for may i can say that there isnt anything i or a 6th grader can't prove in what i said. These are not my personal statements they are proven and well documented facts that most people (not including you apearently) know.Thank you gmd.To be honest i was hopefull that i would learn something new here, that a turck would post something that he could be proud of, something that i was not aware of.I did not expect such a big fat 0. Surprisingly enoughf i was the one who posted two things a turck might be proud of instead.

[Anonymouse]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Saco, you also have to stop with your insults and at the very least your inciting words. Take the higher road even if insulted. You're warned. Hellektor's nationalist views are not banned, his insults are. So he has the right to express his views, just not insulting. You do not have a monopoly on truth.

[Hellektor]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Since I am addressed in some of the recent posts, though reluctantly, I feel the obligation to respond. It’s hard to write when you engage in auto-censorship and are constantly checking every word.

Regardless of the dark history with Turks nothing can ever be achieved without some type of dialog, even if its lost land that we are talking about.

True. Let’s be honest with ourselves. Are we doing this to look civilized in the eyes of the Judeo-Saxon/Eurofag world who between themselves slaughtered probably half a billion human beings in the last five centuries or so and where they'd much rather see Armenia evaporate so that they can suck up to the Turk more freely, or we are really, really interested in solving our problems, imposed on us since the ill day the Turks set their hoofs in our home about a thousand years ago.

From what goes on, it seems we have learned absolutely nothing whatsoever from history. Just a tiny sample of what has happened in these couple of years:

I. Look how Turks banked points from the Akhtamar farce, where after having destroyed thousands of Armenian monuments only since the 1950s, they presented themselves as a civilized, modern, European, tolerant “nation” who not minding the “baseless” Armenian claims, renovated an Armenian monument. Needless to say, they neither gave it back to its owners, nor allowed it to function as a church, nor even tolerated the placing of a cross on the dome of a church named the Holy Cross.

Instead they desecrated it by hanging a gigantic portrait of that genocidal doenme Jew Kemal and that despicable flag of theirs, red with the blood of our nation with Lucifer’s symbol in the middle, on the façade of the church. Later they held a fashion show in front of the church and projected profanity on its walls. All signs of a deep disrespect and mockery of our culture and sanctities.

II. The show in the streets of Turk-occupied Constantinople after the cowardly killing of Hrant Dink, the crowd reacted this way only because he was kind of a TV celebrity. Here again, the Eurofags applauded the cultural “maturity” of the savages where all that really happened was that for the nth time the blood of an Armenian was shed and a brave voice suppressed.

III. The stupid step taken by Serj under pressure from the Jewmockratic devils as a result of that Zionist traitor Levin Peterstein’s treachery that led to a miserably weak start for Serj. The genocidal Turk took the huge fruit of this silly blunder:

a. Every time anybody mentions the Armenian Genocide, they howl, “do not disturb we are talking” and this can go on for ages.

b. They create an artificial rift between the Armenians inside and outside the girl’s profile, picturing those inside as willing to embrace the wolf (a game played by the Turk in this thread) and those outside (the Diaspora) as the evil Armenians who don’t care for the wellbeing of Armenia (what is left of it, that is).

c. Forcing their worthless self as an important player/mediator in the most important of our issues, the Artsakh conflict. Just check the recent Hurriet misinformation.

All this, for the sole purpose of stealing territory from Armenians even when they lost the genocidal war they started, the only goal of pan-Turkism, the only project of the Turk regarding Armenia.

Never, ever forget this and I repeat for the millionth time:

Turkey's only policy towards Armenia is that they never have tolerated and never will tolerate the existence of an Armenia of any shape, size or form, because it is the wedge that stands between their realization of their sick pan-Turkic delusion.

As long as every Armenian comes to know this and remembers this, we are safe and we can have a dialogue, yet not without preconditions.

For older Armenian Generation is too late, they have too much hate inside for all that has happened, I understand Hellector but Armenian and Turkish new Generations are a different story.

Just a correction: though I’m no teenager anymore, I am not what you call older generation. Besides, I am no descendant of survivors of the genocide in 1915, rather we were brought here 404 years ago, an event which emptied large parts of Armenia and was also a blow to our nation in the long chain of the blows we have received in the last 3000 years or so. Before blindly trusting the Turk, the new generation must know what the descendants of the bloodthirsty hordes of nomadic barbarians are really after: more pasture for their cattle at any price, even destruction of entire civilizations and nations.

There is a good chance of Dialog that could awaken the Turks to the truth. I don’t know why you would be against something that cannot harm Armenians anymore than they have been.

“cannot harm Armenians”?

Take a look at the maps below:

In the present situation, though not as wide as it should be to be the last nail in the coffin of pan-Turkism, the Armenian wedge is wide enough to guarantee a certain degree of security against the unquenchable thirst of the wolves in human shape, for Armenian blood:

This is what they want. As soon as they get the historically Armenian territories around the artificially drawn genocidal borders of NKAO, the wedge will be as vulnerable as in Soviet times. Emboldened by the usurpation of land even when they lost the war they started, the brazen Turk will start demanding Meghri to have direct access to stolen Nakhijevan and Armenia will drown in a Turk quagmire:

They do not need to commit massacres to drive Armenians out of the girl’s profile. They constantly howl about a “million” “Azeri” “refugees” and once they took the liberated land, they’ll use their weapons of mass population, unleash a million ferocious “Azeris” on us, settling them in those areas which will stifle Artsakh and Armenia.

The Turk wants everything and doesn't give a finger. Unless I see real progress and sincere intentions, I will cry wolf on top of my voice, lest we commit the thousandth error in relation with these murderous plunderers.

Young Armenians like Saco should be given a chance. (He does not sound like a Turk to me….you guys are so paranoid that you are ready to lynch one of your own).

Turkness drips from his every post. He has his chance, I don’t want to lynch anyone and I’ll apologize if I’m proved wrong.

Until Armenia becomes a force that can kick Turkish butt militarily, economically, and politically, you better find another effective weapon to fight with. Exposing the truth is a potent gun against Turkish elites.

Beautifully said! And since we do not have those levers or effective weapons as you put it, we have to use the one we have, that of international law. I have treated this subject here.

[may]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Saco i don't question your motive as to why you started this forum. To be honest i wanted to see what the turcks would write myself. Just imagine if a similar thread was made about armenians it would go on forever.As for may i can say that there isnt anything i or a 6th grader can't prove in what i said. These are not my personal statements they are proven and well documented facts that most people (not including you apearently) know.Thank you gmd.To be honest i was hopefull that i would learn something new here, that a turck would post something that he could be proud of, something that i was not aware of.I did not expect such a big fat 0. Surprisingly enoughf i was the one who posted two things a turck might be proud of instead.

I was refusing to reply to this post not because I cannot name anything about what Turks should be proud of, but because of the intention, which was clearly stated by Saco and backed by others: "Turks have nothing to be proud of! Savages with sword, no brain but a mighty arm. Lets ask and see it ourselves!" This attitude puts itself in a position of the judge and the "other" as the one to "prove" her/his humanitarian value. Neither Armenians nor any other nation in the world can claim such a judge position, unless you live in a world of race superiority in which you believe one carries some values from birth after a simple DNA exchange of a sperm and an egg. I am sincerely ashamed to continue this post but I will. Actually, refusing to pursue such a discussion would count as something to be proud of.

First, everybody saying the same thing does not necessarily imply the fact or the truth. Especially, if this "everybody" is actually a tiny peace of the world. Otherwise, world would still be flat, Zeus was still watching over the world.
Second, a non-existence cannot be documented. It can be stated to be non-existent until one shows a case where it exists. So all the crap that you wrote can be trashed with a single example. You can claim, one in a million, so it does not count. If we are talking about proof, it surely counts.

Let's go one by one from what you previously wrote:

When it comes down to facts people dont visit turckey becaus they like its people or its culture they visit it because of the land it occupies. They go to the ocean side relax and go home.Some may marvel at the anciant architecture which is built by either greeks or armenians and cant be credited as things turckey can be proud of.

Seljuk architecture is worth seeing and visiting.

The only things that the turckish nation has done that i would say deserves some positive recognition is its secular stance but as we all know thats going down the toilet, the other is its mighty army it manages to maintain but that of course is tainted with the blood of so many innocent and repressed people.

Turkey's secular stance has a long way before flushed. I have worries as well, tough.

the other is its mighty army it manages to maintain but that of course is tainted with the blood of so many innocent and repressed people.

Ottoman Empire, when its mighty arm was maybe the mightiest in its history, opened her gates to Sephardic xxxs who were about go extinct at the hands of fellow christian kings. Not much changed after the mighty arm weakened, and Turkey was the ONLY country in Europe that had guts to accept xxxish people escaping from Holocaust. A courage to be proud of, huh?

By the way, "so many" is how many?

The turkish nation came into existence with the sword, they kept power and expanded with the sword so the sword is all they know

Please let me know a country that did not try to expand in history, or expanded it via peaceful talks with the neighbours. Or is it also clearly documented and everybody knows that only Turks expanded in the history and they were the only one that used sword to do it?

and have and pretty much anything els either cultural or engineering or sciense related that happened in turckey was done by the opressed races that lived there or races who are now extinct in anatolia.

Poet: Nazim Hikmet
Writer: Orhan Pamuk
Painter: Abidin Dino
Musician: Erkan Ogur
Mathematician: Cahit Arf
Chemistry/Biology: Oktay Sinanoğlu
Medicine: Hulusi Behçet
...

If you can please prove me wrong otherwise this thread is a joke.

At your service, Haykakan, non-existence that has been reported, well documented, whispered from ear to ear, has been disproved with first and easiest examples that come to my mind in, say, 15 minutes. Disproving a nonsense/prejudice is way more easy than you can think of.

On top of it, a culture of a country/empire is a collective culture. If we are talking about the Ottoman Empire, that culture reflects Turks, Greeks, Armenians and all others. Likewise, the culture in Armenia is not free of influence from its neighbours. I gave my examples in the racist path that you paves, as if having a Turkish gene/blood (whatever it means) gives those people the ability to become successful. I am really really ashamed. Truly.

[konachan]

Re: What should Turkey be proud of?

Well. Hi.
If you won't be mad I'd be glad to explain myself as a turk. I actually didn't come here to discuss anything about turkish-armenian relations or about the whole genocide stuff and such, but I just wanted to see what armenians sound like. I usually met a few in youtube and such, as you know, there is some sort of a war going on there, or did, since we banned youtube and usually do not have a chance to log on and start flame wars. There, we had a mutually hostile relationship, and called eachother names back and forth, was very amusing, though, one sometimes wants to really wonders, "well, who are these armenians anyway.".
So I came here to talk with a few of you, of course I originally intented to hide my identity and usually go through with all of it, but I got bored of it eventually.
So, you ask, what do we have to be proud of. Well, we do have stuff to be proud of just like you do. Is that so hard to figure?