The sense of loss?

[Gavur]

Why is it that I feel dirty and violated?
Can you imagine what the Armenian government must feel, if they can afford to take in to consideration what they feel.

What we are seeing is a huge step by Turkey,a historic day that should be marked as such.

It was what we were striving for since Hrant Dink's brutal assassination 2 years ago,when we all (even some Turks) felt like victims, to switch war rhetoric into peace negotiation, to switch in Turkey the name Armenian from the lowest being, to a peace partner that sits at a table with no preconditions, and discuss common concerns on a equal footing.
Hrant payed a dear price to help realize this small step for us but a giant step for Turkey.

Even though my mind tells me this is progress...

I still feel ungraceful

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

I understand you yekhpayr and don't blame you (no one can). It's not only you that feels this way.

If it makes you feel any better, there is a lot of progress (a lot more then you acknowledged above in your post) that we can see clearly today. I made a short list in my Baby Steps thread. Check out the last page or two and of course the first page.

Even then though, I can still understand you bro and I'm afraid these feelings will live within us until the pathetic Turkish gov. recognizes it's bloody past. Till then ... Ujegh mna yekhpayrus , menk bolorus inchkanel heru, mishtel ko yev irar het kulinenk!

[hipeter924]

Re: The sense of loss?

I understand you yekhpayr and don't blame you (no one can). It's not only you that feels this way.

If it makes you feel any better, there is a lot of progress (a lot more then you acknowledged above in your post) that we can see clearly today. I made a short list in my Baby Steps thread. Check out the last page or two and of course the first page.

Even then though, I can still understand you bro and I'm afraid these feelings will live within us until the pathetic Turkish gov. recognizes it's bloody past. Till then ... Ujegh mna yekhpayrus , menk bolorus inchkanel heru, mishtel ko yev irar het kulinenk!

It will take a democratic government to do that. Turkey is no true democracy. As long as the minorities are repressed in Turkey...and 501 remains in place there will be no freedom of speech and freedom of discussion, but one day the extreme nationalists in Turkey will lose.

Turkey will eventually be free from a cruel and corrupt government...when that happens Armenians and Turks will probably be able to mend wounds as Turkey's people after being exposed to the truth will at last recognize the Armenian Genocide, the Turkish intellectuals speaking out is the beginning I guess. As long as people continue to speak out in Turkey there is still hope.

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

Yes, I feel dirty too. It is disgusting to normalise relation with armenians under the thread of AG. That is like blackmailing Turkey with AG.

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

Yes, I feel dirty too. It is disgusting to normalise relation with armenians under the thread of AG. That is like blackmailing Turkey with AG.

I don't see why you feel dirty ... at all, actually ... because the AG is what has binded Armenians and Turks together stronger then ever for the last century. Only after recognizing the AG will you or any other Turk even be able to think about having normal relations with not only Armenians but many others as well. Your grandfathers didn't only murder Armenians. This issue (and many others) make Turkey look like a fool and it is, I say this truthfully, in the best interest of the entire Turkish populace to accept their bloody past and move on ... no matter what. That will be the first major step toward normal relations and a better Turkey ... YES, a better Turkey. Right now, it sucks and the lives that the Turkish people live are not only FILLED with lies anymore ... they have BECOME lies now. Your gov. has spoiled an entire generation and we all have to fight together to make sure these sons of xxxxx*s don't ruin the new Turkish generation. They are the ones I fight for ...

You say you want normal relations. Well for something to exist normally, you must first eliminate any and all abnormalities ... if you get my drift ...

You might feel dirty, as you put it, but then what is your proposal, what should we do? Start having normal relations with Turks without having them FIRST deeply regret and accept that their grandads murdered, raped, burned, severed, drowned, sliced up, ETC. our people? Is that what you think we should do? Is that what YOU would do if you saw your mother raped in front of your eyes? Is that what you would do if you saw horrors you wouldn't even be able to see in HELL? I doubt it. So I urge you to change your tone a bit and put your feet in our shoes before saying ANYTHING.

Your gov. has forced us to use any means necessary, including blackmail, to earn the Justice we have been wanting for more then a century. They asked for that and we would hate to not give em' what they asked for. Only after the AG issue is cleared will we be able to talk about anything being perfectly normal again.

Anything at all ...

[Palavra]

Re: The sense of loss?

I don't see why you feel dirty ... at all, actually ... because the AG is what has binded Armenians and Turks together stronger then ever for the last century. Only after recognizing the AG will you or any other Turk even be able to think about having normal relations with not only Armenians but many others as well. Your grandfathers didn't only murder Armenians. This issue (and many others) make Turkey look like a fool and it is, I say this truthfully, in the best interest of the entire Turkish populace to accept their bloody past and move on ... no matter what.

Whatever you say wont change fact, accepting AG will harm turkish benefits. Not otherwise. and we can built every relations(This include ROA.) without accepting AG.

Ah and what do you mean with "move on". do you think everything will finish If Turkey accept AG.

Right now, it sucks and the lives that the Turkish people live are not only FILLED with lies anymore ...

So you want to tell me, It is only Turkey which lied about past? I am sure, Turks can live like french, armenians or americans.

Your gov. has spoiled an entire generation and we all have to fight together to make sure these sons of xxxxx*s don't ruin the new Turkish generation. They are the ones I fight for ...

I do not care about knowledge of new turkish generation about history. I prefer to interest with their welfare. AG wont help their welfare.

You might feel dirty, as you put it, but then what is your proposal, what should we do? Start having normal relations with Turks without having them FIRST deeply regret and accept that their grandads murdered, raped, burned, severed, drowned, sliced up, ETC. our people?

My friend.are you sure that we are talking about same topic? Because I did never mention to accept AG. ROA is not saying this too.

Your gov. has forced us to use any means necessary, including blackmail, to earn the Justice we have been wanting for more then a century.

Hmm. You get it wrong. Turkey will open border and USA and ROA(not armenians.) will stop to blackmail Turkey with AG.

If you want to talk about ethics, talk about it. If you want to talk about real politic. Talk about it. It is why I dislike last events. It is disgusting we are bribing USA because of AG.

If We accept AG than we should say, Yes AG happened but we will not open border(Because It is against our benefits.) If We refuse AG, We should say. We wont open borders and do whatever you want about AG.

Saying We refuse AG but will open borders because of USA threat to recognize AG. That is disgusting.

Building relations with ROA wont benefit Turkey but USA and EU.

Even I ignore the fact that Azeris are our brothers, Supporting azeris is still much more better alternative for Turkey. So why the hell we are trying to normalize relations? Because of AG threat.

You say you want normal relations. Well for something to exist normally, you must first eliminate any and all abnormalities ... if you get my drift ...

No, I dont. It is RAO which want normal relation. I do not see much benefit from normal relations. If karabag issue solved, It is another issue. I prefer pro-russian ROA instead of pro-russian azerbaycan.

ROA will not happen our ally and we will lost alliance of Azeris. What a stupid game.

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

Whatever you say wont change fact, accepting AG will harm turkish benefits. Not otherwise. and we can built every relations(This include ROA.) without accepting AG.

Turkish benefits? What type of benefits are you talking about? The Land and Money that your people stole from us? Is that what your talking about? Is that what Turkey VALUES so much? Is that what you value? I'm afraid you don't understand what true value is. What is more valuable ... the land and money painted with blood (which won't last forever) or a peaceful mind and a better future for both the Turkish and Armenian generations to come? What benefits do you talk about? The Turkish people live a lie, nothing more, and their bloody past will never allow them to rest peacefully ... and neither will we. You would do the same if we murdered your people. No one will live normally until these issues are cleared so I suggest you look at the bigger picture instead of acting like a politician ... or better yet ... a Turkish politician, lol, that goes to bribing school.

Ah and what do you mean with "move on". do you think everything will finish If Turkey accept AG.

No ... that's when life and everything will finally B.E.G.I.N. The past century has been a nightmare thanks to your people. Enough innocent Armenians AND Turks have suffered. It's time to move on and not the pathetic Turkish way.

So you want to tell me, It is only Turkey which lied about past? I am sure, Turks can live like french, armenians or americans.

They can live normally after they SAY they lied and face who their grandfathers were. I don't think I need to remind you but let me know if I do. You don't fully appreciate how serious the AG issue is and what a xxxxx it makes Turkey look like. When she faces this, she will look much better and people will trust you more then they do now. Is that not in the best interest of the Turkish people? If not, then what the xxxx is? What is important to you?

I do not care about knowledge of new turkish generation about history. I prefer to interest with their welfare. AG wont help their welfare.

You are confused. You look at the AG as if it's just a chapter in one of your torn history books when in reality it is YOUR xxxxed up past. It only happened 94 years ago and it ain't about to go anywhere, unfortunately. And one quesiton, what is this "welfare" you are interested in? Describe it, won't you?

My friend.are you sure that we are talking about same topic? Because I did never mention to accept AG. ROA is not saying this too.

You didn't answer my direct question. And ROA has always been saying this. The only reason they aren't saying this now is to bring down the tension level so that we can sort out everything in a better way. There is no other reason. What do you think, we all forgot about what your people did? What your people still do? Open your eyes, dear!

Hmm. You get it wrong. Turkey will open border and USA and ROA(not armenians.) will stop to blackmail Turkey with AG.

Haha, what border will open? You talk about politics but don't seem to know the basics of politics! Neither the Turks or Armenians OR Azeris are happy about any borders opening and believe it or not, THEY WON'T. One simple reason why. The Turkish gov. has begun placing rediculous preconditions on the table so screw them, their border, and their preconditions ... figuratively speaking....

It is disgusting we are bribing USA because of AG.

Your officials started that so if your so disgusted, go spit on their faces instead of blaming us.

If We accept AG than we should say, Yes AG happened but we will not open border(Because It is against our benefits.) If We refuse AG, We should say. We wont open borders and do whatever you want about AG.

I agree and don't worry, we aren't all jumping with joy with the idea of the borders opening. No one wants that and it's somewhat pointless at this time. Perhaps when you Turks learn to speak truthfully, then we might consider opening them. You have stolen everything from us and you talk as if nothing happened. We will always be your wake up call ...

Building relations with ROA wont benefit Turkey but USA and EU.

We only want healthy relations, nothing more. Screw politics. At the moment, we can't build any proper relations with Turkey because its officials are as screwed up as they were back then. AT LEAST back then the officials said they were xxxxxxxs. Nowadays, the officials act like b****s!

No, I dont. It is RAO which want normal relation. I do not see much benefit from normal relations.

What benefit do you want or expect, Palavra. When I read your posts, I imagine a very materialistic girl, forgive me. Till now, you've only been talking about things that will never last and it just continues to make me laugh. Some part of me begins to think the majority of Turkey thinks like you.

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

Well yes, I would expect you to start having normal relations irrespective of what any predecessors may have done. In terms of here and now, what's that got to do with me? Your predecessors should have dealt with it 90, 80, 70, 60, 50 years ago when the guilty were around. It's not my fault your sense of justice remains unfulfilled 94 years later.

Hi Ferdi, this is, I believe, the first time I’m talking to you ! Allow me to explain what the AG has to do with you and why you personally will never be able to be indifferent … why you have your share of blame and always will have. You gave me a good question by the way … one that almost any Turk throws at me when he/she doesn’t know what to say. No matter, let me answer … again.

First off, the reason we all take this issue forward so seriously is not only because the AG was a crime against humanity and our people but also because our and your predecessors dealt with this issue till their last breath. We are continuing what they left off and have no doubts, if they had the chance to live one minute more, they would fight against this injustice and you Turks would still deny the AG. Am I wrong?!?!?
The Modern Genocide continues till today and nothing is normal neither for you or us. YES, a Genocide goes on till today and that is where the Turkish people and the Turkish gov. can find their individual share’s of blame. That includes you and I’ll explain why.

One reason Armenians and Turks will never have normal relations without dealing with this issue FIRST is because you and your people have been denying your past EQUALLY as much, IF NOT MORE, as your predecessors have. Your grandfathers and grandmothers hid the past … YOU’RE PAST … and taught many of you, if not ALL OF YOU, how to laugh at us and hate us as much as they did (IF NOT MORE), directly and/or indirectly. After all, their blood runs within your veins. Anyways, as the years went by, denial and the lowest forms of lies were injected into the hearts of the new Turkish generation which spoiled not only them but the Armenian people as well, who began to hate Turks more then ever and only an imbecile wouldn’t/won’t understand why. Instead of stopping the developing hate and lies though by accepting the AG, the Turks began the Modern Genocide, as if one f*****g Genocide wasn’t enough … as if they didn’t have enough to pay for already, lol. No matter, they began to and tried their level best to destroy anything that even slightly reminded you of Armenia or Armenians, trying to cover their crap, which brings us to the 90’s. Till now, all that I described, all the covering up, wasn’t being done by your grandfathers/predecessors, it was already being done partially and/or completely by your parents. Forget the older generation, their already dead as you like to put it. So, like I said, this brings us to the 90’s. Your Azeri cousins take up weapons at the middle of a beautiful moonlit night and attack Armenia, attempting to start finishing what their grandfathers started in 1915. A war began and raged for a few years and Armenia became very weak after that but showed the world once again that it will never die no matter how many Turks and Azeri’s wish for that to happen. THIS took all the hate and lies to a much higher level and this brings us to Hrant Dink and the new generation which started to use its brains. Unfortunately, the Turkish mentality was so spoilt at this point that a young Turk took a gun and murdered Hrant. A small revolution took place after that and the Turkish people began to think without the help of the adorable Turkish gov. which was a big step forward. This finally brings us to the present day, Ferdi!

My point is that throughout the past 94 YEARS, you and your people have denied EVERYTHING that you have done … destroyed almost everything that belonged to us gradually … began to live in OUR lands and if that wasn’t enough, change their historical names … bribed and THREATENED many different countries that wanted to support us … threatened and even killed individuals in Turkey that thought differently … laughed at us for centuries … killed our fathers, mothers, brothers, and sisters in the Kharabagh war (not to mention all the Armenians you killed throughout and before the AG) … taught lies in your schools for almost a century and continue to do so TODAY … murdered Hrant Dink … threatened all the intellectuals and Turks very seriously that signed the apology petition … destroyed our past and spoiled our lives … enjoyed and still enjoy the money that officially belonged to the Armenian people (a VERY, VERY large part of the Turkish bank in 1915 (so naturally today, as well) … began to live in our houses and comfort which you stole from us forcefully … drove so many of our people literally mad/crazy as the years went by … and this is not all ……….

I hope you understand what I’m saying. All this happened 94 years ago and continues till today. Do you now understand what’s going on? This is more blame then the Turkish and Azeri people can carry TOGETHER and unfortunately, THERE IS MUCH, MUCH MORE. I’d like to discontinue my list for today though.

I’m not saying YOU personally have to take all the blame but you have your share of blame. Denial is one reason alone. Your family directly was connected to hiding your and our past and teaching you lies. I’m not saying your grandfather killed our people (I’m not going that far) … perhaps he was a soldier serving in WW1, who knows, but millions of families in Turkey are not innocent and carry a lot of blame and blood everyday, no matter where they go. Nevertheless, your family taught you lies … everyone taught you lies.

It doesn’t matter if you did something directly or indirectly. Your grandfathers have taught you how to carry their burden and how to cover it up. You are all completely prepared and I can prove that to you. In the end though, here’s the thing. We don’t personally blame YOU. We don’t want you to burn in hell. We just want justice, we want everything to fall into place. No one wants war. We blame the country of Turkey, not all Turks alike. I have so many Turkish friends that I would gladly take a bullet for RIGHT NOW and feel like xxxx every day when I think of all the crap they have to go through because of the bastards that control your country. They accept what happened, fight for a better future, and will always be our friends. They are the reason why we haven’t completely given up on you Turks. The Turkish gov. on the other hand is the one that will pay the GREATEST PRICE, not my friends, not the good hearted citizens of Turkey, not the Turks that regret what happened, not the Turks that understand us ………… and they will, have no doubts.

The AG isn’t even a century old. It’s as if it happened yesterday. If it happened 500 years ago, then you could EASILY say that you had no connection with it or something like that. But it didn’t. I would still just like to remind you though that even if a thousand years passed, if you continued to deny your past, you would continue to carry the blame your pathetic ancestors did and still do today in hell. Right now though, the Turkish people have a lot to answer for. The AG took place 94 years ago not 500 or a 1000 years ago. No one, my friend, will let you forget. No one. And even if we do, YOU will always feel awkward. You will never forget and will somehow stumble upon the truth one day. Armenians and Turks have been together for 800 years. That’s no joke. We have a long history together and this issue binds us together tighter then ever. That is why you will have to apologize just like WE would have to if we murdered your people!

The Turkish gov. and MANY MANY MANY MANY Turks have caused us pain you will never be able to even imagine in your wildest nightmares and they will pay more then they would have to pay back then. They have spoiled an entire generation.

Throughout all these years, your parents (I’m talking about the massive, massive majority, I don’t know your parents) have continued to cause us pain, they have continued to kill us indirectly and even directly, believe it or not, and by doing so, they have thrown their burden upon your shoulders. So see, your grandfathers took our people, our lands, and our money, your parents began to and continue to cover up all the proof, destroying us in many different ways, and now you continue their legacy. Their blood runs within your veins. That’s why the Turks have dirty blood figuratively speaking. You are the third generation though … You have a chance to stop all this and if you don’t, YOUR AND OUR CHILDREN WILL CONTINUE THE BATTLE. Is that what you want?

Genocide is not a joke or a simple war my Turkish friend. You don’t fully imagine what it is and when you do your way of thinking will change. It is THE worst form of evil and the only thing MORE EVIL is DENYING IT which the children of the murderers have been pushing forward for a century … very professionally I might add. Congratulations, you’ve all been doing a fantastic job. So now you ask me “What does this/that have to do with me?” and I say … it has EVERYTHING to do with you…

I know in law there's a popular concept that there remains no statute of limitations on murder, but I reject that.

You wouldn’t reject that if it was your people that went through hell on earth. You talk too big, Ferdi.

There is, once the culprit has departed this world then as my Italian friends say it's 'la musica e finita'. Denying something may be immoral, bad taste but that doesn't make the post generation complicit in the original sin.

True, but you people have been continuing what your grandfathers started, directly and/or indirectly, just like us. We have been fighting for justice and you people have been fighting against us just like your grandfathers were before they were sent to hell! Do you see the difference??? If everything ended in 1923, everything wouldn’t be as serious as it was today but thanks to your parents, everything got even worse and now, the greatest burden has fallen on the new generation’s shoulders and they have the power to end what their illiterate grandfathers started. We, the new generation, have the power to create a better future for our children … a future without banners and wars.
And forgive me Ferdi but only a coward would say “What’s this got to do with me?”Only a coward. Isn’t it ironic that your grandfathers said the same sentences when people were talking to them? Do you now see where your way of speaking even comes from? It is time for change not cowardly phrases.

I know this will come across as very inflammatory to many of you but keep things in perspective about who really did what, who is to blame, needs to regret, apologize etc. What irks me is that Armenians have a habit of talking like they've been personally "... burned, severed, drowned, sliced up" when in reality they’ve probably never suffered anything other than a paper cut.

You are wrong, my friend. We suffered the most. Our grandparents died … we on the other hand survived and have to live with this injustice all our lives. You don’t know what pain is. And so many Armenians have gone through more pain then any of you have in your entire lives so think before speaking. Show some respect. Don’t do what your grandfathers did. Learn from their mistakes and move the xxxx on. We want nothing more.

I don't know the answer, perhaps Turks need to be more historically focused and Armenians more future focused to move ahead. Who knows? I don't.

You don’t know and will never know because you don’t appreciate the gravity of the situation. This issue will only be cleared once your nation deeply apologizes and faces justice. There is no other way! Too long have we suffered and too long have lies been pumped into your minds. 30-40 years ago, things might’ve turned out differently but it’s too late now. Things have changed, especially after Hrant was murdered but now people are thinking differently. Only apologies, trust, and friendship will get us out of this xxxxhole but judging from your post, I doubt that’s going to be easy!

[Sako]

Re: The sense of loss?

Ignore the extremist fringe, no credible person within in Turkey or elsewhere would deny that Ottoman Armenians suffered tremendously, it's the semantics about labelling the tragedy and numbers that in dispute. I'm personally not necessarily disagreeing with you about the suffering, many died needlessly, lost everything they had and faced gross injustices unimaginable. I'll go even one further, retrospectively applied it fits with the definition of genocide.

Well in that case ... I forgive you! And just a pointer, according to your post, there seems to be very few credible people within Turkey because they all deny their past. I'm talking about millions upon millions. Think about it...

But seriously I ask again what do you expect from me (your wrong this, the question is derived from pragmatism not cowardice)?

You misunderstood me. I told you a hundred times, I am not personally blaming YOU and asking for your house and everything that belongs to you. I would consider myself the lowest person living on this planet if I asked you to give me what you have. Times have changed, naturally ... but not everything has changed. What you have to do is regret what your grandfathers did, without a doubt in your mind that they DID IT, and support us instead of supporting all the lies in Turkey. That is the first and most important step.

So sorry to disappoint but I'm highly unlikely to ever feel any personal guilt or offer any compensation over something from nearly 100 years ago. Nor am going to sit in judgement of events or people that are far gone. And if I don't why would I expect my government to?

Because your gov. continues to do what it did a hundred years ago. Did you read my entire post? It doesn't seem like it. You simply quoted the smallest thing I said. The Modern Genocide continues till TODAY and your telling me "And if I don't, why would I expect my government to"? You are blinded by your countries lies. You are blinded by their politics. You don't appreciate the gravity of the situation.

The only people that won't be blamed are those who hang their heads and accept what happened like real men and women instead of acting like cowards. That's all I see when I look at the Turkish majority. Liars and Cowards. Period.

It is people who accept what happened that will be forgiven ... the others will pay. I told you. Your grandfathers and grandmothers taught you how to carry their sin, THEIR burden, and only those who prove them wrong and spit on their faces and what they did will be able to move on and let go of that guilt although even then, Turkey will always have blood left on her hands. Nothing will ever be forgotten. Some wounds never heal. This is what I want you to understand. Everything that happened in the past continues till today, simply in a different way and nothing will remain unanswered. You may not pay personally yourself if your smart enough to understand what your ancestors did ... but your nation will pay. You use our money and live on our lands which are painted with blood ... our blood. That is why your nation is guilty. That is why you are partially guilty. But you can get rid of all this. The New Generation can end all this and finally get rid of their feeling of guilt. Too bad your gov. doesn't let you........

......they will pay for that.

When a crime takes place ... the criminal isn't the only one that is taken to the police station. I hope you understand what I'm saying. This is the answer to your question. This is what I want you to remember.

You say lots of nice words about youth, the future etc but I fear the reality is we will never adequately satisfy Armenian ideals of utopia. It's unfortunate for you but it needs to digested that your ancestoral lands and homes are lost forever.

No one wants those lands Ferdi. There is much more that belongs to us ... things you don't know about. That is what belonged, belongs, and will always belong to us. That is what your gov. doesn't want to lose. Why do you think they are so protective?

There is a lot you don't know ...

So where to next?

Whatever direction we choose to go in, kardesh!

[hrai]

Re: The sense of loss?

What irks me is that Armenians have a habit of talking like they've been personally "... burned, severed, drowned, sliced up" when in reality they’ve probably never suffered anything other than a paper cut.

Two brothers who will forever remain in Artsakh.

Go away turc!