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Re: The sense of loss?
Again, you show how little you know about this subject. When Talat, Enver and Cemal took over the cup in 1913, they almost immediately started putting together a propaganda campaign against the Armenians, declaring them traitors/enemies of the state. Their massive loss to the Russians in late 1914 afforded them the opportunity to seal the deal on this campaign. Revolts were exaggerated, and Armenians were blamed for the losses, making it far easier to gain support for what they wanted to do. The evidence for a lack of rebellion/revolts/gorillas is well documented in the Austrian-German archives, yet to this day, these things are used as excuses by Turkey to justify the actions of their ancestors.
Now....WHY would they want to do this (give Armenians such a bad rep)? Simple. For starters, the pan-Turkic dream. Sure, religion played a roll in it, but it wasn't good enough to be Muslim. You had to be a TURK first, a Muslim second, in order to be worth a damn to the CUP (and most conservative Ottomans, which made up the VAST majority of their population). Armenians, being devoted to their religion and ethnicity, were a thorn in the side of this pan-Turkic dream, which resulted in DECADES of pent up frustrations, just looking for an opportunity to boil over into something of this scale.
Secondly comes a major key that is often overlooked when discussing the reasoning behind the Armenian genocide: OIL! The Ottomans had lots of it, and the Germans wanted access to it. An agreement was reached to extend the "Silk Road/Orient Express" on through Baghdad, and up to Germany. In exchange, the Germans would help the Turks pave the way for such a project by getting the Armenians, who resided on large chunks of the necessary lands, out of the way. This a huge part of the reason an alliance was formed in the first place between the OE, and the German Empire.
Not just ANY Kurdish bandits, but as Gavur explained, psychopaths from prison that were set loose by the Ottoman authorities with the sole responsibility of attacking the convoys as repayment for being set free. I'm sure some "freelancers" joined in on the fun, but there were very specific death squads used for this purpose, as well.
The Armenians were the wealthiest people in the Ottoman Empire. It is the Turks who were poverty stricken, thus, envy played a huge role in what happened to the Armenians during the genocide (as well as the Adana massacres in 1909). Disease and starvation should have NEVER been the reasons behind the demise of the Armenian population. When I say these things were intentionally crafted, I mean the very act of "deporting" itself was the method used to manifest them. They were given next to nothing for time (IF they were given any time at all) to gather some clothes, and whatever food they could carry, knowing there was NO way they could carry enough to survive the journeys. They were ordered to leave their riches behind (much like the J.ews), and those homes that weren't burnt down were taken over within 2 weeks by Turkish citizens (again, illustrating that this was a premeditated move). In some towns and vilayets, they were killed on the spot. There is quite a bit of material in the Ottoman archives showing how repulsed many Turkish officials were at the actions being taken by the CUP. A mayor even stepped down, wanting nothing to do with what was happening. Groups of Armenians being burned, raped, priests being hung IN TOWN, etc....these things are all very well documented by a wide assortment of witnesses, INCLUDING TURKS! In other regions, if they were surrounded by other minorities who may have been sympathetic to the Armenians, they were marched out of site first, and THEN the killing began (yet again, like the J.ews), or they'd just let the marches themselves do the killing FOR them, as they knew full well there was no way to survive them. The fact that the caravans took the longest routes possible (much longer than they had to be to get to the destinations), through the most treacherous terrains possible, and ended in uninhabitable lands, with no provisions either along the way, or at the "final destinations", is all the evidence that one needs to realize the intentions of these "deportations".
Survivors didn't necessarily survive the marches themselves. They were hidden by Turkish friends, taken in by sympathetic Arabs, or were given food by them along the way, hid under dead bodies, played dead till the caravan passed and then sought help somewhere, etc. There is no way large numbers of people could have survived the marches with the excessively difficult manner the Turks conducted them. That is why the Turkish stance that "you cannot call this genocide because there is no evidence of direct orders saying to exterminate the Armenian people" holds no water. There didn't NEED to be an order saying "kill all the Armenians". You need only say "'deport' them in such and such manner", because no one in their right mind could have expected them to survive those deportations from the beginning. That WAS their method of genocide.
Most of that Greek, Armenian, etc. blood your so called "multi-ethnic" Ottomans possessed was obtained involuntarily from those parties (just like the lands Turkey resides on today). That's quite possibly the biggest insult of all out of all this. Turks not only stole the land, and murdered the indigenous people of those lands, but today, they try to pass of the foods, dances, music, culture, and heritage of those indigenous people as their own.
And as Pedro said, Armenians had no problem surviving for thousands of years. I very highly doubt they needed your "help". The only members of the diaspora who are loosing their identity are the Western ones (i.e. American & Canada). That happens to ANY culture that moves out here, on account of the cheap, media promoted pop culture that exists in the west. You cannot compare that to the diaspora that lives closer to home, or nations where not being a WASP isn't seen as weird.
What the nations who signed the Treaty of Lausanne agreed upon is of little concern to Armenian boarders. Armenia did not belong to any of those nations in order for them to give it away, partition the boarders, etc. The Treaty of Sèvres (signed just less than 3 years earlier) clearly stated that Armenia was to be an independent state, and therefore, cannot be tampered with by other entities. By your analogy, the ref blew the whistle for a game on a totally different court, but you're trying to squeeze our team into the roster so that you can end the season for them as well. Once again, doesn't work that way.
Life was unfair to the J.ews, too. Guess what. The Germans and Swedes are STILL paying handsomely for what their ancestors did. A NEW fund was set up in '99 for new claims of stolen money, land and lives. In '07, it was proposed that the reparations be reorganized to make Germany find ways to help Holocaust survivors that are still around today, and struggling. Why don't they just stop reparations, and say "you know what? I think ferdi is right! We've done MORE than enough already, and to top it off, we've done these things for the crimes of our ancestors, which we're not even responsible for!!!! We're not even the same people! That was Hitler and the Nazis, not our modern day German nation! We're done. You're cut off. We don't owe you SH*T! (high fives ferdi)".
I'm starting to suspect that your nonchalant attitude has a lot to do with your lack of knowledge about the severity of what your ancestors did. You've shown time and time again that you haven't really ever looked into this piece of history, and know very little about it (far less than most Turkish denialists; at least they have the Turkish denialist handbook memorized). You mentioned that you don't understand why Turkey criminalizes talk about this subject, or why they "cover it up". In fact, you said there's nothing TO cover up. You DO realize that if you said that to a Turk in Turkey, you'd be murdered on the spot, right? Obviously, your government, nationalists and even average citizens differ greatly with your opinion. They seem to think there is a great deal to cover up, and that it is very important to avoid the label of genocide. That should be your first clue that there's more to this issue than you're giving credit for.
It's easy to talk like you do when you're on the other side. But I GUARANTEE YOU, if you were on the opposite end, you'd be doing the same thing we are. Letting modern day Turkey go on pretending the events of the past didn't happen, or that they don't owe anything for the wealth, lives, lands and contributions they took from the Armenians, which has contributed GREATLY to what the republic of Turkey is today (thus why YOUR generation owes) is adding insult to injury. We're not letting you off the hook that easy, and neither would you if you were in our shoes.
Originally posted by ferdi2
Now....WHY would they want to do this (give Armenians such a bad rep)? Simple. For starters, the pan-Turkic dream. Sure, religion played a roll in it, but it wasn't good enough to be Muslim. You had to be a TURK first, a Muslim second, in order to be worth a damn to the CUP (and most conservative Ottomans, which made up the VAST majority of their population). Armenians, being devoted to their religion and ethnicity, were a thorn in the side of this pan-Turkic dream, which resulted in DECADES of pent up frustrations, just looking for an opportunity to boil over into something of this scale.
Secondly comes a major key that is often overlooked when discussing the reasoning behind the Armenian genocide: OIL! The Ottomans had lots of it, and the Germans wanted access to it. An agreement was reached to extend the "Silk Road/Orient Express" on through Baghdad, and up to Germany. In exchange, the Germans would help the Turks pave the way for such a project by getting the Armenians, who resided on large chunks of the necessary lands, out of the way. This a huge part of the reason an alliance was formed in the first place between the OE, and the German Empire.
Originally posted by ferdi2
Originally posted by ferdi2
Survivors didn't necessarily survive the marches themselves. They were hidden by Turkish friends, taken in by sympathetic Arabs, or were given food by them along the way, hid under dead bodies, played dead till the caravan passed and then sought help somewhere, etc. There is no way large numbers of people could have survived the marches with the excessively difficult manner the Turks conducted them. That is why the Turkish stance that "you cannot call this genocide because there is no evidence of direct orders saying to exterminate the Armenian people" holds no water. There didn't NEED to be an order saying "kill all the Armenians". You need only say "'deport' them in such and such manner", because no one in their right mind could have expected them to survive those deportations from the beginning. That WAS their method of genocide.
Originally posted by ferdi2
And as Pedro said, Armenians had no problem surviving for thousands of years. I very highly doubt they needed your "help". The only members of the diaspora who are loosing their identity are the Western ones (i.e. American & Canada). That happens to ANY culture that moves out here, on account of the cheap, media promoted pop culture that exists in the west. You cannot compare that to the diaspora that lives closer to home, or nations where not being a WASP isn't seen as weird.
Originally posted by ferdi2
Originally posted by ferdi2
I'm starting to suspect that your nonchalant attitude has a lot to do with your lack of knowledge about the severity of what your ancestors did. You've shown time and time again that you haven't really ever looked into this piece of history, and know very little about it (far less than most Turkish denialists; at least they have the Turkish denialist handbook memorized). You mentioned that you don't understand why Turkey criminalizes talk about this subject, or why they "cover it up". In fact, you said there's nothing TO cover up. You DO realize that if you said that to a Turk in Turkey, you'd be murdered on the spot, right? Obviously, your government, nationalists and even average citizens differ greatly with your opinion. They seem to think there is a great deal to cover up, and that it is very important to avoid the label of genocide. That should be your first clue that there's more to this issue than you're giving credit for.
It's easy to talk like you do when you're on the other side. But I GUARANTEE YOU, if you were on the opposite end, you'd be doing the same thing we are. Letting modern day Turkey go on pretending the events of the past didn't happen, or that they don't owe anything for the wealth, lives, lands and contributions they took from the Armenians, which has contributed GREATLY to what the republic of Turkey is today (thus why YOUR generation owes) is adding insult to injury. We're not letting you off the hook that easy, and neither would you if you were in our shoes.
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