Let us all reason, for the well being of humanity.

[winoman]

RookieArcher -

welcome to our forum - and I appreciate that you come here asking questions - that should be asked - and not spouting (uniformed, insensitive and racist....so-called answers). I don't have the time right at this moment to answer all of your questions but believe me I can and will answer all of them. Not everyone - not even most other Armenians - possess much of the knowledge I possess concerning this issue - including - believ it or not and understanding and appreciation of the Turkish position (and by this I mean the position that the Turkish people and governments were in during these times as opposed to the denial efforts - though I am quite familiar with these as well). Just to very briefy address one issue - Greeks and other Christians of trhe Empire and later in Turkey were very much targeted as well - as later even rthe Kurds were. You might not be familiar with the expulsions and massacres of Greeks that actually proceeded the Armenain Genocide proper (in 1913) as well as those that followed - from 1917-19 - then in 1922 - leading to the forced expulsion then then became the "population exchange" with greece. Your also not likely familiar with the brutal supressions of the Kurds that occured in the late 1920s/early 1930s - but believe me they were most ugly as well - and I have been to one former (Kurdish) town in Anatolia that was utterly destroyed by the Turks in the 1930s where only barren and still burned out looking stone walls remain. And if the Dashnaks had a program to advocate revolution, violence and seperation - whish they did at various time - believe me the Ottoman Sul;tans and later the Pan-Turckist had much worse - and they represented government policy where the Dashnaks were just a political party with limited influence among Armenians and even more limited capabilities. This is all I have time to address now - but I can provide a great many sources and links to information that corraborrates my points - believe me - there is overwhelming evidence for the Genocide of the Armenians - to doubt such is not an option for any educated person - and while not all is perhaps as black and white as some Armenians may like to see it (but can you blame considering the aggressive denials etc) - the essential truths of what happened correspond to a great deal more what you hear from the Armenain side then what is frequesntly spewed from the Turksih side. There are educated Turks - and I know many - who understand very much these events and there are incresing numbers of Turkish scholars who are speaking out for Genocdie recognition and who have some very good perspectives - Taner Ackam is one that you may know of and Haly Berktay is another. I will be happy to post some of their thinking on this - I have much of it.

[Red Brigade]

Regarding about the issue that there was not Genocide against the Greeks, i suggest this individual to search about the Pontic Genocide from which 350.000 Pontians Greeks died.The Genocide occured in the modern Trabzon were the Laz live today.There are not Greeks left.I am aware of the treaty signed between Greece and Turkey.This happened before the treaty was signed.

http://www.ahiworld.com/051503.html

It is comemorated in Greece every year on May 19.

I wont mention about the Assyrian Genocide , made by the Turks.
The Armenian Genocide has already been accepted from the vast majority of the Historians , i see no reason for us to discuss about anything.The only reason the countries were not recognising it before was because Armenia was under the Soviet sphare of influence all these years , and they didnt had any voice.

[RookieArcher]

First of all, winoman, i thank for your reply,

I would like to have a civilized discussion.

1. I might sound "denialists" while asking questions, so please dont mind it. Even if you call me denialists i dont mind, as long as my denial is based logic/ proof, not on idiotic nationalism.

2. Red Brigade, i dont bother to read what u wrote. Any single person around the world could make up any website accusing others for any xxxx.

3. What i believe is, to understand a distand "case" we could start, examining a "similar case" in our period. For me, it is Kosova War and Kosovo Genocide Claims.

Therefore, i quote the following text for exemining, for a brief start.

David Scheffer, the then US ambassador-at-large for war crimes, announced that as many as "225,000 ethnic Albanian men aged between 14 and 59" may have been killed. Blair invoked the Holocaust.."

The American FBI arrived to investigate what was called "the largest crime scene in the FBI's forensic history". Several weeks later, having not found a single mass grave, the FBI went home. The Spanish forensic team also returned home, its leader complaining angrily that he and his colleagues had become part of "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines, because we did not find one - not one - mass grave.

One year later, the International War Crimes Tribunal, a body in effect set up by Nato, announced that the final count of bodies found in Kosovo's "mass graves" was 2,788.

As a start, i dont really see the book of Ambassador Morgenthau as an objective book. Put his name in the text above, and you will understand why i see his book rubbish.

Reading my posts and just labeling me a denialist would not help either Turks, not Armenians.

You see Turks as a "denialist generation"
We see you as a "generation brain washed to believe that there were a genocide"

Saying that "genocide is not negotiable" is something like "I blame you, you cannot defend yourself, you dont have right to defend, just admit what i am accusing u of".

Even a bloodyhanded killer has the right to defend himself. So why not Turks defend themselves?

Most Armenians think there is no solution except recognition of "genocide" And most Armenians think new attepmts of Turkish government is seen a new wave of denial, because for them, factfinding is done.

Not done my friends.

You did your factfinding yourself, we did ours ourselves. Now we need to come together to "compare facts", to find out the truth.

I am posting here because, in winoman, i saw an enlightened discusser.

Thanks.

[bell-the-cat]

Therefore, i quote the following text for exemining, for a brief start.

David Scheffer, the then US ambassador-at-large for war crimes, announced that as many as "225,000 ethnic Albanian men aged between 14 and 59" may have been killed. Blair invoked the Holocaust.."

The American FBI arrived to investigate what was called "the largest crime scene in the FBI's forensic history". Several weeks later, having not found a single mass grave, the FBI went home. The Spanish forensic team also returned home, its leader complaining angrily that he and his colleagues had become part of "a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines, because we did not find one - not one - mass grave.

One year later, the International War Crimes Tribunal, a body in effect set up by Nato, announced that the final count of bodies found in Kosovo's "mass graves" was 2,788.

It is ironic that you quote this. At the time, I knew that the pre-conflict US campaign against Serbia was clearly composed entirely of lies and propaganda because I saw in those lies and propaganda exactly the same tone and content as Turkish State propaganda denying the Armenian Genocide.

The purpose of having a true understanding of historical events is to be able to recognise in current events similarites to past events, and by knowing about those past events be able to not repeat the same mistakes. So you are using the correct process to explore the history of the Armenian Genocide. I wish there were others like you.

But, unfortunately, the points that you raise show that you are lacking the background information that you need to properly use that process. For example, the Armenian Genocide did not only affect the "six east provinces". All areas of Turkey were included, including areas as far from any front line as Adapazar, or Ankara, or Kayseri. This is a crucial point for you to explore - since it explodes the official Turkish excuse that the death of Armenians was merely the result of a badly managed wartime evacuation from front-line areas.

(Incidently, Winoman works, in part, for a US government department that produces the sort of American propaganda we saw in Kossovo. Everything he says is suspect.)

[Red Brigade]

The Greek Genocide is not just about a website made from a person.It is officialy commemorated in Greece every May 19.The website was to proove you that it is commemorated in Greece officialy and not to convince you if it did happen , since what you and your likes think is insignificant.

[winoman]

RookieArcher -

I (still) don't have the time at the moment to answer you in detail - but I'm curious what yor point of concern is in this comparison with Kosovo - is it that you think that this masacre - and by linkage the massacres of Armenains - did not take place - at all - or only that the numbers might be considerabley less then what is commonly accepted? Not that I am accusing you here - but both of these are typical contentions of Turkish denialists - and in fact parallel denial of genocide in general where such tactics are employed. But to specifically get to your concern - the Armenian Genocide was udertaken in quyite a different environment as the Kosovo (and Bosnian) massacres. IN the Ottoman Empire there was a tremendous foreign presence that bore direct witness on these events. There were consular officials from Germany, Austria and the United States (incidently the US was never at war with Turkey in WWI - and in fact realtions between the two nations were fantastic except for one instance where Tukish soldiers ransacked some official US property on tore open some correspondence - otherwise both nations had a great stake in maintinaing good relations - the US - to protect its missionaries and business interests - the Ottomans - to have somewhere to turn for relief when the allies won and started to parcel her up - something that the US opposed - being instead interested in autonomy and such for ethnics) - but I degress - US and German consuls as well as missionaries of all stripes - US, German, Dutch, French - observed the Genocide up close. Thuis the documentation is impeccible - unlike Kosovo and Bosnia where foreigners were not present and reports of atrocities relied on locals who fled such - much less reliable. As for the numbers - well - first of all eveyone can agree that the Armenian "nation" is no longer existant in Anatolia. Secondly there are many figures compliled by Armenian patriarche and foreign confidential intelligence services that pretty much agree as to the numbers who lived and were taken from the various towns and villeges. Regardless the exact number are immaterial. What is relevant is the testimony of the various eyewitnesses and the records of discussions among the foriegn Ambassadors and consuls with Ottoman/CUP officials - the ability for us to see how the Genocide was conducted geographically, the documentary evidence and testimony of those tried and convicted by the pos-war Ottoman military tribunals - all add up to damning evidence of the clearest kind - there is no getting around this. And specifically concerning Ambassador Morganthau's book - while its toen may make it seem as if it is not a serious book - in fact it is most serious and worthy of use. The majority is based upon reports from US Consuls from around Turkey - all these are maintained in the US archives. Much of the rest of Morganthaus book concerns conversations between himself, the CUP leadership and officails and official from foriegn governments. In all case Morganthaus accounts match up with the primary sources and are corroberated by the German, Austrian and Italisn officials that have seperatly reported such conversations and events and the text of these reports are contained in their nation's archives. So Morganthau is accurate and the primary and corroborating sources exist to prove such - and to use directly.

Additionaly I'm seeing in this second post of yours where you are getting into this accusation that we "Armenians' are brainwashed on this issue and you are claiming that somhow new facts have come to light on the "Turkish side" and so on and so forth - well this is dangerous game. First of all there is no truth to these claims of yours. The essential facts are all known because of the nature of the great amount of eyewitness data. Scholars of all types - not just Armenian - have analysed and accepted the claims of Genocide (word was in large part based on the Armenain experience BTW) and furthermore your "self-defense" or provocation argument fails to at all hold water. German reports overwhelming confirm no active Armenain resistance of any noticible sort. Localized stuff at most with no significant military bearing. Additionaly there are a great number of other reasons why this contention just totally fails - the massacres of Armenians well outside the war zones is one - additionaly other Christians were targetted and destroyed who were not accused of such activities. Anyway the reasons and the build up to the decisions to exterminate the Armenains are well known.

You intially come to us claiming ignorance and seeking knowledge - as if you are open minded on this. I am feeling that perhaps you are not quite so but know (and perhaps believe) more (of at least the offical Turkish account) then you have originally let on - thus I wonder how differnet then our raving Nothink friend you really are. Can't you see the bankruptcy of these objections on the Turkis part? Even if much of what the Turks in the propoganda claim are true - it still wouldn not be justification for the very real Genocide that did occur - think about it a bit - and surprise us - show us that you have a bit going for you outside of a Turkish xeno-Nationalist approach.

[bell-the-cat]

RookieArcher -

I (still) don't have the time at the moment to answer you in detail - but I'm curious what yor point of concern is in this comparison with Kosovo - is it that you think that this masacre - and by linkage the massacres of Armenains - did not take place - at all - or only that the numbers might be considerabley less then what is commonly accepted?

His observation, that American propaganda accusing Serbia of committing genocide in Kossovo was ultimately revealed to be nothing more than lies, is a correct observation. It is also entirely reasonable for him to propose, for arguments sake, that this "genocide", invented by America for political reasons, has the same character and substance and function as accusations that Turkey committed genocide against Armenians.

[winoman]

His observation, that American propaganda accusing Serbia of committing genocide in Kossovo was ultimately revealed to be nothing more than lies, is a correct observation. It is also entirely reasonable for him to propose, for arguments sake, that this "genocide", invented by America for political reasons, has the same character and substance and function as accusations that Turkey committed genocide against Armenians.

In fact you are wrong - for the most part these massacres were taking place. My wife headed an investigative commitee overseeing UN HCR efforts which went to Kosovo and to Bosnia (Sareajvo in particualr) and investigated these various massacres. WHile there was often discrepency regarding some of the particualrs and of course numbers of dead - these masscres did take place and round ups and detention of ethnic Muslim males - sometimes leading to massacre also occured and in large numbers- and BTW mass graves were found. These things were not fiction. While there was certain manipulation conducted for the US to get into the "war: at the time they did that was perhaps less then honest or fully informed (mainly an issue of balance - in ignoring the faults of the KLA) - and when we did start bombing the Serbs they actually significantly intensified their campaign of killing muslims...by and large this action in (ultimatly) preventing Serbian "ethnic cleansing" was entrirely justified - and in fact should have occured as result of Bosnia years earlier. Of course it should have been the (proven again gutless) Europeans that took the lead. My plan - advocated to those who mattered BTW - was for the US to invite the Turks in as peacekeepers! (to actually offer to transport Turkish troops into these area...back into Europe BTW...) Oh yeah - would have spurrred the Euros to immediate action I tell ya. Anyway....and as for the results - while Kosovo is a mess certainly and has been very much mishandled in fact the situation in Serbia has improved markedly - the Neo-Nazi nationalist/racists are out and properly discredited and more reasonable types are in control - so for perhaps this was the best thing for Serbia in the long haul.

[RookieArcher]

winoman-
You intially come to us claiming ignorance and seeking knowledge - as if you are open minded on this

Its true I dnot know much about armenian side of the story.

winoman-
where you are getting into this accusation that we "Armenians' are brainwashed on this issue.

I didnt say "Armenians are brain-washed" What i said is:
You see Turks as a "denialist generation"
We see you as a "generation brain washed to believe that there were a genocide".

My observation has two sides, not only accusing one side only.


winoman-
you are claiming that somhow new facts have come to light on the "Turkish side" and so on and so forth - well this is dangerous game.

I didnt say "Turkish side miracoulously discovered some new facts to refute Armenian claims. What i said is, "You did your factfinding/indoctrination/brainwashing yourself, we did our factfinding/indoctrination/brainwashing ourselves. Now we need to come together to "compare facts", to find out the truth.

winoman-
First of all there is no truth to these claims of yours. The essential facts are all known because of the nature of the great amount of eyewitness data.

Yea eyewitness data very accurate, we saw it in Kosovo case, all eyewitnesses claimed to the tv correspondents 100s of 1000s of their loved ones buchered by Serbs, only to find out that thier loved ones assumed to be dead popped out somewere in a camp in Macedonia, Albani etc.

winoman-
Even if much of what the Turks in the propoganda claim are true - it still wouldn not be justification for the very real Genocide that did occur - think about it a bit - and surprise us - show us that you have a bit going for you outside of a Turkish xeno-Nationalist approach.

Eventhough it was not a genocide according to my "denialist" mind, it was a tremendous crime to relocate all those Armenians from their homeland to the another part of the empire. It was even bigger crime that this relocation was done with lack of organization, without enough supplies of food and medicine, and protection.

You satisfied winoman?

bell-the-cat-
But, unfortunately, the points that you raise show that you are lacking the background information that you need to properly use that process. For example, the Armenian Genocide did not only affect the "six east provinces". All areas of Turkey were included, including areas as far from any front line as Adapazar, or Ankara, or Kayseri. This is a crucial point for you to explore - since it explodes the official Turkish excuse that the death of Armenians was merely the result of a badly managed wartime evacuation from front-line areas.

You are right. "Relocation" was planned to be restricted for only 6-vilayets. But it covered most of Anatolia. Thanks for contribution. What can i say against a truth, i just confirm. What i dont agree is the term "genocide".

This is what i want. Every one contributing to the pool of facts, cleared of fables/tales/prejudices.

bell-the-cat-
His observation, that American propaganda accusing Serbia of committing genocide in Kossovo was ultimately revealed to be nothing more than lies, is a correct observation. It is also entirely reasonable for him to propose, for arguments sake, that this "genocide", invented by America for political reasons, has the same character and substance and function as accusations that Turkey committed genocide against Armenians.

Yea that is why i proposed to examine Kosovo genocide.
It was invented for political reasons. So, why not "Armenian Genocide" be another "invention" by Allied Powers in WWI? Becaouse there were an unprecedented war in history and all sides used all means militarily and verbally (propaganda) to win the war.

winoman-
the Armenian Genocide was udertaken in quyite a different environment as the Kosovo (and Bosnian) massacres.

Not exactly. All started same.

ArmenianGenocide/Kosova Genocide

- Armenian/Kosovan desire to be independent.
- Terrorism or guerilla warfare bye Armenian/Kosovan Tashnacks/KLA
- Getting the attantion of the West
- Relocation campaing by Ottoman Turkey / Ethnic cleansing by Serbia
- Fables of genocide by victims (Armenians/KLA)
- Wartime propaganda by Allied Powers/USA

If, Serbia miraculously won the war, now we would be talking about,Kosova Genocide, Half million Albanian dead eventhough the truth was the opposite.Because, those eyewithneses, propaganda speeches, tvreports would be accapted as facts of the KosovoGenocide. Thanks god, serbia lost and serbs dont have to deal with a big accusation.


winoman-
but both of these are typical contentions of Turkish denialists.

I am rewriting some parts of my post here again for you to understand.

Saying that "genocide is not negotiable" is something like "I blame you, you cannot defend yourself, you dont have right to defend, just admit what i am accusing u of".

Even a bloodyhanded killer has the right to defend himself. So why not Turks defend themselves?

winoman-
IN the Ottoman Empire there was a tremendous foreign presence that bore direct witness on these events.

Ottoman Turkey must have had invited all those to watch the show?
All criminals have some common atribute, they all try to do whatever they want in secret, not in front of others.

The huge presence of foreigners actully shows that the intention of Ottoma Turkey was not kill/destroy/exterminate Armenians.

Any Government with the intention of annihilating a nation would not do it in front of others, at least would not be stupid enough to invite American Eastern Relief Organisation, canadian Relife Organisation, and numerous others for help to feed and take care of relocated people in areas where government is incapabel of.


winoman-
but I'm curious what yor point of concern is in this comparison with Kosovo - is it that you think that this masacre - and by linkage the massacres of Armenains - did not take place - at all - or only that the numbers might be considerabley less then what is commonly accepted?

For something to be "commonly" accepted, all sides must agree on it. ArmenianGenocide is something that lack this agreement.

Accused rejects (denies) it.
Also the WWI era superpower/world policeman (Britain) rejects it.

Numbers are important. because, eventhough killing 20 thousand people and 1.5 million people both crime, bigger and bigger number makes it fable-like, impossible to believe.

winoman-
the documentary evidence and testimony of those tried and convicted by the pos-war Ottoman military tribunals.

Every revolution, needs to accuse the old regime with something else. Every failure needs a scapegoat. Because of this, every revolutionary/reactionary action lacks objectivity. Furthermore. in those trials, all accused peaplo are convicted not secause of mass killings but wrongdoings (stealing, raping, corruption, using relocation funds for personal interests etc. ) in "relocation".

winoman
i am posting here because i want to have a civilized conversation, and i thought i can do it with you.

I tried to answer all your questions, and i expect the same from you.

labeling people just as "denialist" and seeing what they say as "worthless" will not help neither Turkey, nor Armenians.

To win the case, to bring out the facts,you need to win those "denialists".

I also thank for the valuable contribution of bell-the-cat-

[nairi]

If you don't know much about the Armenian side, then what are you doing here? Do you really think that a teenage forum will make you wiser on the subject? Or is this another one of Turkey's filthy tricks to prove that Armenians are wrong?

Why don't you just go back to googling the answers with your highly educated arse, instead of coming here and talking out of it?