How to help Turks listen to you and try to understand your issues?!

[jgk3]

Winoman: I don't really have a reason to contend with anything you say. The reclaiming what is ours does spell disaster, I know this. This is why I don't want it to happen now. I'd rather have our nation win it through diplomacy instead of war, yet now is not the time. Armenia is weak, and with such a meagre population and the current position of Diasporan Armenians, it does not make a difference if we have more land or not now, we'd just create a vacuum in that troublesome region of the world. Our relations with Turkey should improve now, instead of deteriorate, I agree again here. But I don't want the acknowledgement of the genocide by Turks to shut us up for good, which is probably the kind of thing the Turkish government would go for should they accept. I want Armenians to find inner peace someday, and this will not be achieved through outright reclaimation of our lands and the defeat of the Turks, but through a rebirth in Armenian culture and heritage. Yet, how can this occur with the meagre Armenia we have now? I'd feel happer if Turkey would do more than just apologize, but to rebuild our infrastructure, so that we have a chance to start again. I doubt they could ever do this. This is why, we must take it back with our bare hands, yet we can't ever win as things stand now.

Also, I understood the context of smokescreen you were using in the beginning, but when I was writing, I... twisted it around... I feel kinda dumb now about that. Anyways, I agree that Turks as individuals should not be our enemies. This is what I was trying to say in my other posts. But Turks, as a people, are not our friends. Yes, we can drink with them, and chat with them, and even become very close friends with them, afterall, they're human like us, and are good people (individuals). But as a people, as a legacy, this is not so, at least in my eyes.

About people feeling the pain we have... I guess it's possible, not to the same degree, as the best they can do is reconstruct our pain (which is a rare show of compassion in this world, so I commend those who are capable of this). But as you said, a lot of Turks, especially those who come here, don't comprehend this often, and I don't blame them, they are Turkish, they have their own ancestors and legacy they have to stand up for should they be patriotic. I don't blame them for it, but they are more prone than any other people to stand for their innocence in the genocide, and this is why they will never feel our pain (except for the rarity who renunciate their legacy and feel for people of all nations without that nationalistic barrier).

As for loveataturk: Victory for Armenians through conventional war is a fair victory, a challenge is a challenge. But we wouldn't do that, for obvious reasons... This is why it all comes down to our diplomatic struggle in the end.

[winoman]

Karoaper and jgk3 - 2 really good posts that I can agree with in their entirety.

I'm not sure though that we can ever realistically hope for Armenia to be among the great and powerful nations or some such - geography and numbers are against us - but one never knows eh? We are certainly a talented and capable people - but I think our achievements will be like they mostly have historically been - individual - certainly based on our values and inate abilities and such that being Armenian has given us - but we have never much been a people who truly think the "we" in terms of organization/authority - but are types that go it alone within the framework - as it were. So I don't think it prudent to really think things will change in this regard. Just the same the Turks rightly fear us and they should realize that keeping such a capable people in a state where many of us perhaps actively seek major vengence is perhaps not a good thing. There are all sorts of ways to bring down (very very low) a nation or a state short of conventional warfare. They must understand that they are severely risking their future and would do much better - for its own sake to allow their nation and people to mature - and for the sake of avoiding future animosities - to fully recognize the historical truths of their past and not continue to believe the myths - and to reconcile with the Armenians...the alternatives to not doing these things are generaly bleak for Turkey in the long term for a number of reasons - regardless of how either currently ignorant or smug they are about these things.

[The Mad Turk]

Just the same the Turks rightly fear us and they should realize that keeping such a capable people in a state where many of us perhaps actively seek major vengence is perhaps not a good thing. There are all sorts of ways to bring down (very very low) a nation or a state short of conventional warfare. They must understand that they are severely risking their future and would do much better - for its own sake to allow their nation and people to mature - and for the sake of avoiding future animosities - to fully recognize the historical truths of their past and not continue to believe the myths - and to reconcile with the Armenians...the alternatives to not doing these things are generaly bleak for Turkey in the long term for a number of reasons - regardless of how either currently ignorant or smug they are about these things.[/QUOTE]

Oh Really?So you think Turks are very scared of Armenians.Well after reading your posts I honostly feel sad to see how desperate you people are.You seem to be using drugs or something.Though Im impressed by your imagination.
I tell you what will happen in the near future.İf Turkey was not bonded to EU nothing would happen,no matter how many countries feel sympathy to you people.Turkey would simply protest those countries and go on its way.But now that we are bonded to EU everything is changed in favor of the state Armenia.EU will definetly make this issue to come out.And Turkey will have to somehow face it.So why do you people were shouting and screaming''No to Turks'this is not understandable.this is diaspora I guess.But dont get exited problem will be solved not the way diaspora wants.First of all no Turkish government can accept such rubbish so called genocide because Turkish people simply dont believe this whole make up Armenian story.We all see it artificial to cry for grandfathers granfathers.Armenia will not get one meter of land.But will get a lots of adventages politically socially and economicly.And two states relations will be normal.Right after the borders open second step Azeri problems will be solved again with the pressure of EU.You people are underestimating EU s senisitivity about human rights.So piece is coming to this region.But what will poor diaspora will do then?Let me tell you .Diaspora will be a looser again.And fade away with their hatred and cries in the history. You get it winoman.This is a lesson one to you from a Turk.

[jgk3]

We all see it artificial to cry for grandfathers granfathers.

Diaspora will be a looser again.And fade away with their hatred and cries in the history. You get it winoman.This is a lesson one to you from a Turk.

You see, you don't understand our pain, you see it from the outside, as illogical. But tell me, has your family lost their loved ones in such a brutal way? Have you ever had emotions for a grandfather you've never met, yet know all about his feelings and his life through your father's depictions so well, his existance has a share in your own soul via your father? Are these people, who have died "so long ago", not significant to our lives? THEY ARE US. WE ARE THEM. And no, this grandfather of mine did not die in the genocide, he lived a good life, I'm using his example for you, because it doesn't apply to the genocide to a great degree.

And yes, the diasporan will be the loser, this is why I don't see how your people and government can ever resolve this. The EU will only benefit Armenians on the outside, what did we expect? We've been isolated among enemies and invaders so long, we have thick skin to resist the hollow hopes they present for us. We will not be fooled.

[Stark Evade]

Can people please stop responding to every pathetic Turk that has nothing to do but come here and say the same old nonsense when they don't have anyone to kill or spit at? Just ignore them because nothing will change by these discussions. Nothing.

[loveataturk]

((Can people please stop responding to every pathetic Turk that has nothing to do but come here and say the same old nonsense when they don't have anyone to kill or spit at? Just ignore them because nothing will change by these discussions. Nothing.))

HOW CAN WE CREATE A BETTER LIFE FOR OUR CHILDREN, ARMENIAN, TURK, AZERI, ESKIMO, ENGLISH, JAPANESE....If people like you keep on insisting that SPEAKING is no good????

Humans TALK, Stark, animals fight....YES, we should talk. This is not just our world, I want my children, and also your children, to be clean and free of the garbage called WAR and HATRED.

This is why I try.

[karoaper]

I must be hallucinating.

Did someone, whose nation and people have marauded and killed throughout their existence in a way that would make many [wild] animals seem like humans in comparison, just lecture an Armenian on the importance of behaving humanely. Moreover, is this the same person who today justifies these animal acts as pride inspiring struggle? I better be, cause otherwise I'm so confused.

[Aril]

I really don´t think you´re the only one who´s confused...it seems to me that this world has been, is, and will always be lost. Will always feel anger, frustration. Will never forget or move on. Evil and revenge - there is no trust. Here on earth there´s just a bad circle and I have a bad feeling that it won't ever stop, until death show us another place. Or maybe everything is just like it should be...on earth - the mixture between hell and heaven. Good Luck!

[The Mad Turk]

do you people really want to know why we come here.well ı dont know the others but ı can talk for myself.First of all ı have many armenian customors(if not friends) in istanbul.Believe it or not we talk about Armenian history.they are lively people,but there is a sorrow in their hearts.and ı can see it.I accept the tragedy.Really I do.But not the genocide(similar to what germans did).I came here in an attempt to have some kind of understanding.But when some of you or rather most of you start to claim that armenia must take their lands back etc I get angry and become sarcastic.There must be a solution between Turks and armenians .Not that we are scared of you but we like you.really, even if you cant accept it we are brothers with you.And I hope someday somehow we find a solution which wont hurt both sides.Finally if Turks dont enter to this forum and give some answers ı think it can be a very boring forum because of similar views .thanks for accepting our views here .Bye.

[jgk3]

You have every right to feel angry that we want our lands back. But I commend you for your curiosity that led you to come here so to understand the issue in greater depth. I don't like it when Armenians here tie you DIRECTLY to the Turks who led the genocide, but you do support their legacy, as righteous and justifiable. We will never see it that way as true Armenians. The world is not prepared for our victories however, and nor are you. But that does not stop us from striving to end the suffocation of our legacy.

You are human, you are capable of compassion and I can be your friend, but when we reach for our respective national identities, we must fight for what we stand for. Who will be the victor in the next few centuries years? I don't know. I just know that I will strive to be compassionate, without ignoring my heritage and that of fellow Armenians. You would do the same, would you not?