How to help Turks listen to you and try to understand your issues?!

[loveataturk]

MAD TURK....IT IS BETTER TO BE STRONG (very strong) and CIVILIZED, than be NATIONALISTIC.

Strength of civility, strength of democracy, strength of well-being of citizens (good economy), and strength of resolve against criminals and offenders (a strong army)...

A strong people (regardless of race-religion-ethnic background) will commend respect from the humanity...Look at USA....Sure, they have many many wrongs and problems...but compare them to us. Who is more civilized? Who is perceived more democratic? Or the UK?

Democracy and human rights does not mean we have to bow down to every threat. It means we don't have to cower and hide behind "nationalism"...It means true strength.

[jgk3]

Should we also mourne the Nazi dead?

Get it throuh your head joke Turk3 - Armenians were Genocided by the Turks - NOT the other way around.

Yes, we should at least feel sad for the dead innocent germans,the soldiers indirectly sentenced to death by Hitler at Stalingrad. I mean honestly, sure the Germans were naive to elect Hitler, but they didn't know any better. Their nation was in shambles, and the only party who could stabilize their political power was the Nazi party. They would soon fall victim to totalitarianism, and they'd be silenced should they speak out against the will of the state. Young men were brainwashed and marched to their glorious graves. I pity them, it wasn't their fault.

I read your posts to Stark, and you show a change of heart, you show that it is absurd to hate all Turks. So there's no point making an argument anymore since it's already been neutralized.

[skhara]

Hatred is an emotion that gets in the way of rational. Coolheaded anger is a much better response. But discussing with Turks anything seriously is useless. Unless done for personal recreation. Turkey is the enemy. The entity itself, should be frustrated, attacked, and weakend, on all fronts possible. If they get to start insulting Armenians, that's a success. Most Armenians in charge understand this.


Nakharar:
Why are you trying to bring up the moral issues of the AG. Ottoman authorities did what was in their interests. Want justice? Asking politely or inpolitely will not do a dam thing. Might makes right and only force is understood.

Its funny to me to hear turks talk of the diaspora Armenians. Oh those evil diaspora Armenians. Well they are the creation of turks, and I guess they are doing something right.

[winoman]

Yes, we should at least feel sad for the dead innocent germans,the soldiers indirectly sentenced to death by Hitler at Stalingrad. I mean honestly, sure the Germans were naive to elect Hitler, but they didn't know any better. Their nation was in shambles, and the only party who could stabilize their political power was the Nazi party. They would soon fall victim to totalitarianism, and they'd be silenced should they speak out against the will of the state. Young men were brainwashed and marched to their glorious graves. I pity them, it wasn't their fault.

I read your posts to Stark, and you show a change of heart, you show that it is absurd to hate all Turks. So there's no point making an argument anymore since it's already been neutralized.

When I was in Germany recently some Germans (a tour guide in one instance) was complaining that the US had destroyed much of various particular cultural hertige etc by overzealous bombing and such...well I had to correct them to acknowledge the ultimate fault in this case. Likewise....I may pity or be sorrowful over the fate of Turks who suffered during these times and even be sorry that certain Armenians may have been overzealous in avenging the deaths of their families - etc - but ultimatly it is clear where blame lies and ultimatly this issue of pitying the Turks is but a smokescreen to not own up to the true villians and again is just another form of shameless denial. And when Turks come here and start bandying around such things (infer or accuse Armenians of causing such pain to Turks etc), and then start claiming to understand Armenian pain...and claiming that Armenians should somehow have some sympathy for Turks - when we hear only contriteness, rejection and worse (baseless accusation) from your side - well then I am sorry - your not going to get it - not in the least - and in fact my having to explain this to you - in the face of your insults and lack of anything resembling decency - is more then enough that you actually deserve.

[winoman]

We Turks mostly understand Armenian sufferings.We feel sorry but we feel no shame for this.

You think that you do eh? Well prove it - describe how you understand such things. Of course considering your previous posts and what you followed this comment with in your last post I can tell you that you haven't a clue (and I can apply this to just about everything you have commented on)

[winoman]

I read your posts to Stark, and you show a change of heart, you show that it is absurd to hate all Turks.

I have always been entirely consistent. If you care at all you should read my past posts on this subject in this forum. Maybe if you Turks actually read more and spouted off your (largely baseless) opinions less you could actually learn something.

[jgk3]

When I was in Germany recently some Germans (a tour guide in one instance) was complaining that the US had destroyed much of various particular cultural hertige etc by overzealous bombing and such...well I had to correct them to acknowledge the ultimate fault in this case. Likewise....I may pity or be sorrowful over the fate of Turks who suffered during these times and even be sorry that certain Armenians may have been overzealous in avenging the deaths of their families - etc - but ultimatly it is clear where blame lies and ultimatly this issue of pitying the Turks is but a smokescreen to not own up to the true villians and again is just another form of shameless denial. And when Turks come here and start bandying around such things (infer or accuse Armenians of causing such pain to Turks etc), and then start claiming to understand Armenian pain...and claiming that Armenians should somehow have some sympathy for Turks - when we hear only contriteness, rejection and worse (baseless accusation) from your side - well then I am sorry - your not going to get it - not in the least - and in fact my having to explain this to you - in the face of your insults and lack of anything resembling decency - is more then enough that you actually deserve.

I don't know if I'm seeing things, but was I just called a Turk?

The point is, Turks will never feel our pain, no matter what. The genocide is unforgivable.

There is no smokescreen for my eyes, we will always be in conflict with Turks, as a people, as a legacy. Yes, their campagn was villainous and has yet to be resolved. We must reclaim what is ours, we cannot possibly leave this all behind and pretend it was our fault.

Now, you say you have pity for the Turks who were innocent, and were brutally murdered by our militia before the genocide. This is not the vibe you have last post, and this is why I had to contend with your view. But now that I hear that there's more to you than sheer revenge, I have no reason to continue this little conflict we have here.

I don't want the Turks to recognize the genocide, I want us to win our lands back, win our former legacy, with our bare hands, because negociation will not do this. But this is not feasible right now, and it will never be feasible should our people continue to be radicals.

But should I be the leader of an Armenia that has reclaimed his nation's former legacy at the expense of the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Anatolia who just so happen to be "Turkish", I will not hesitate to resign my position and run as far away as I can from the bloodbath. Because we should be better than this. We should lead a new order, a new example, we are people of HUGE potential if we are put to good use, we are people of character. But as things stand now... hell, our people can be so hotblooded, I would be assassinated for this "cowardly act".

[winoman]

I don't know if I'm seeing things, but was I just called a Turk?

sorry - guess i was confusing you with someone else...

The point is, Turks will never feel our pain, no matter what. The genocide is unforgivable.

I think it is possible for a person who is perhaps otherwise not directly connected with a crime or tragedy or such or even perhaps who may be connected with the cause of such to understand - if they let go of their own perspective and truly make the attempt. For instance - though I have no relatives who were in this nation before the mid 1840s (to my knowledge) and no direct connection with those (English/French/Spanish) etc who came to America and slaughtered and took over the place - I both feel a great understanding (I think) and empathy with the (native American) victims in this case - as well as a degree of guilt/remorse for my connection to the European invasion that was responsible for these crimes. I can't change what was done - but I won't make excuses either. My being an American who loves my country is not predicated on my believeing in myth or whitewashing the crimes and protecting the criminals of our past. Likewise I do thin I can understand and have great empathy for the victims even though I am more associated with ther purpetrator group. (Turks [not meaning you jgk3] please read these words over and over and let them sink in)

There is no smokescreen for my eyes, we will always be in conflict with Turks, as a people, as a legacy.

Not sure you understand the context in which I was using the word smokescreen - no matter. Oh and I disagree - I don't think that Turks and Armenians need necissarioy always be in conflict. I don't feel myself to necessarily be in conflisct with (average/general/ run of the mill etc) Turks today - and in fact I have Turkish friends and I can enjoy eating at Turkish restaraunts with them, drinking Raki ad Efes Pilsen with them, enjoying a nargle with them and so on andso forth - whats the big deal - peaopl are people -and in generalTurks are better then most IMO... our conflict is political and only exists if the political disagreements exist and are at issue. So with those portions of Turkish population - be they official or unofficial - that take a postion contrary to mine and what I know to be true and to be important to me - then perhaps yes - we are in conflict.

Yes, their campagn was villainous and has yet to be resolved. We must reclaim what is ours, we cannot possibly leave this all behind and pretend it was our fault.

agree. Except I have issues with the "reclaim what is ours...as I think that this is - as stated an unworlable perscription for disaster - in our specific case and in general as a principle for relations between peoples.

Now, you say you have pity for the Turks who were innocent, and were brutally murdered by our militia before the genocide. This is not the vibe you have last post, and this is why I had to contend with your view. But now that I hear that there's more to you than sheer revenge, I have no reason to continue this little conflict we have here.

I have my (righteous) anger as all other Armenians do...and I lose patience with fools (though I do my best to suffer them as best I can handle...knwoing that they are usually just lacking and incapable of rising above their level - but one hopes that at least they can make the attempt sometimes.....)

I don't want the Turks to recognize the genocide, I want us to win our lands back, win our former legacy, with our bare hands, because negociation will not do this. But this is not feasible right now, and it will never be feasible should our people continue to be radicals.

Contradictory statements IMO - as you are IMO at least partially - are espousing a radical (pipe dream) type of agenda. You perhaps address this to my satisfaction and I comend you for your humanity - in the next paragraph. Think a bit on this now - on your expressions here and following - I contend that no peace is possible between us as a people unless Turkey ultimatly recognizes the Genocide (and they need to understand this at some level). Obviously it does Armenia no good to have such a powerful enemey who hates them so there at their border - and working machinations against them woth other nations in the region and in the world. Likewise there is no chance for Diaspora Armenians to have individual peace and resolution wihtout this recognition. etc

But should I be the leader of an Armenia that has reclaimed his nation's former legacy at the expense of the lives of hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians in Anatolia who just so happen to be "Turkish", I will not hesitate to resign my position and run as far away as I can from the bloodbath. Because we should be better than this. We should lead a new order, a new example, we are people of HUGE potential if we are put to good use, we are people of character. But as things stand now... hell, our people can be so hotblooded, I would be assassinated for this "cowardly act".

here here! now your talking!

[loveataturk]

If you want it, come and get it!!! if you can.............

[karoaper]

This thread is a perfect case in point of the utter futility of discussing anything with "most" turks. They start by writing some bull, which would be extremely painful for us to hear (since it usually justifies the murder and rape of the people who made up our lifeline) if it didn't come out of such lost and ignorant [and empty] skulls, regurgitating what they have been forcibly fed since birth.

To this, some of us seriously state the prevailing attitudes that we have in regards to the turks and their nation, and more importantly the desires and plans we have towards the lands that the overwhelming majority see as still ours and breathlessly awaiting the return of the people who called it home for thousands of years.

Others still try to educate these clowns and remind them that the lives lost were real [not a movie] and the total toll was a number that in itself is hard to take; it only makes it worse when you add the manner in which people were killed and that turkey today is the direct beneficiary of the resources robbed from the killed and deported Armenians.

Anyways, so what happens at the end of almost every thread is that the turks slither away as they mock the very human emotions and impulses their nation is the cause of. I doubt they learn anything new or get an idea about the sense of loss we feel and that they are directly responsible for this loss.