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International Genocide Recognition

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  • Steph
    Joseph, I think spoilt child rather than stubborn.
    Unfortunately, the child was indulged during the infancy stage and now, as an adolescent, really should be in therapy otherwise I can see a lifetime in institutions ahead.

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  • Joseph
    Originally posted by Hovik View Post
    One difference - when was the last time you heard of american teenage boys ready to kill those who insult George Washington? How about american prosecutors hunting down citizens and foreigners who dare to insult George Washington here and abroad? The borderline idol worship that takes place in Turkey over Ataturk, the cult-like following discussed, this is the difference and a big difference it is...
    I agree. I've been to Turkey several times and his image is everywhere; sort of like China with Mao Tze Tung or Fidel Castro in Cuba. It's a cult of personality.

    I found the article intriguing because although Baydar seemed insulted by what was posted in YouTube and even though he seems apprehensive to admit it, it appears he was embarrased by the reaction of the Turkish courts and also see's the futulity in such a reaction. It also seems he is coming to the realization that the EU, US, the west in general see hypernationalism as displayed in Turkey, as utterly ridiculous as counterproductive. The more that westerners are waking up to this realization, the more Turkey pushed back like a stubborn child. All the money they have spent on PR can do nothing for them.

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  • Hovik
    Originally posted by Joseph View Post
    “George Washington and Kemal Atatürk, the founder of modern Turkey, had much in common. Both men led successful wars of independence; both fought ferociously against the British; both became the first president and ‘father’ of their respective countries, and both proved to be uncommonly forward-looking statesmen who made sure their new republics were secular democracies.
    One difference - when was the last time you heard of american teenage boys ready to kill those who insult George Washington? How about american prosecutors hunting down citizens and foreigners who dare to insult George Washington here and abroad? The borderline idol worship that takes place in Turkey over Ataturk, the cult-like following discussed, this is the difference and a big difference it is...

    Leave a comment:

  • Joseph
    YAVUZ BAYDAR [email protected] Columnists
    Stop making sense

    Only when you see the perplexed eyes of the foreigners do you realize what a country Turkey is: It challenges, increasingly these days, all logic. It can easily defy common reason.
    It can also get really cranky as soon as the boundaries for it’s sense of humor are set to be enforced.
    I wonder sometimes. Should one be proud of living in such a surreal land?
    Or should one be seeking a dark corner to hide one’s shame?

    I suggest the former. I advise discussing even the most gloomy of the matters of politics to foreigners, who also wonder what a boring place this earth be if we did not hear absurdities stemming from this land.

    This entire business of YouTube does not seem to make sense, right? Yet, it has made most of us laugh. (Although I know it has frustrated many youngsters here, leading some of them to apply for lifting the block.)

    The logical question, as the court here banned the access to YouTube, that many here asked as well was: “For God’s sake, what is the purpose here? To protest an insult to the memory of Atatürk? By denying access to YouTube here, do the authorities think they can blindfold the rest of the world? While through the publication it has caused, even the people living in Greenland now are interested in what those visuals were, excited to see freely accessible site on their mark, while angry Turkish youngsters and others curse the air in the internet cafés in Anatolia because their toy is taken from them?”

    Maybe justified questions, but there is always a more legitimate one, that I strongly advise my foreigner friends:

    “Why bother with logic to find logic? Just laugh and enjoy.”

    Therefore I am happy that we produce so much laughing elements to the world, which, as you very well know, is not a great source of optimism these days. Do you hear anything funny from Belarus or Moldova? Heard anything humorous from Nigeria? Even Borat’s adopted homeland is gradually left to be forgotten forever these days.

    Turkey is such a stimulus for minds that the great Los Angeles Times devotes all too often fully serious editorials on developments that generously contain old and new absurdities. Take these deliberations from last Friday:

    “George Washington and Kemal Atatürk, the founder of modern Turkey, had much in common. Both men led successful wars of independence; both fought ferociously against the British; both became the first president and ‘father’ of their respective countries, and both proved to be uncommonly forward-looking statesmen who made sure their new republics were secular democracies.

    “And yet the national cultures that the two men helped to create are vastly different, which explains partly (if glibly) why the United States produced YouTube while Turkey is producing ridiculous justifications for banning it. Though Washington’s name graces the nation’s capital and currency, it is also used for such crass purposes as selling used cars and mattresses.

    “Ataturk, on the other hand, who died in 1938, remains the object of a cult of personality, one in which merely insulting his memory is grounds for imprisonment. That’s why the file-sharing company YouTube was banned from Turkey this week after it hosted a sophomoric video titled ‘Kemal Gay Turk.’ Playground stuff, to be sure --”

    Lovely thoughts, these,

    Yet, they do not help my broken joy in seeing the access to YouTube restored again in Turkey. Part of wanted it to continue.

    People know me for my fierce opposition to Article 301 (you know “insulting Turkishness” thing) but nowadays, after all, well, I am not so sure anymore.

    What tempts me is the unfolding parts of the YouTube story: Now, YouTube restored but hearts still broken, I learned that a prosecutor’s office in Istanbul decided to launch an inquiry, aimed at finding that “Stavreatos” guy, who dared to put that dreadful video on Atatürk on the web. Prosecutor will ask the US attorneys to find the perpetrator and deliver him (her?) the indictment that he (she?) be charged on Article 301.

    What? Why are you angry, all of a sudden? Have you lost your sense of humor? Is it not wonderful that 301 lightens up the existence of humankind on this dull planet? What would you people do, if Turkey’s “official face” did not defend its right to remain serious, and nothing but serious?

    I somehow do not want to be deprived of my right to smile.

    I’ll stop making sense. Long live 301!

    The LA Times concludes: “But the underlying issue is dead serious: Turkey can, and needs to, fulfill Ataturk’s goal of modernization by allowing him to be mocked.”It must be joking.


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  • SirJouge
    Look who isn't neutral anymore... Go Suisse!

    In Lausanne Switzerland, the head of the Turkish party, Dogu Perincek was convicted for denying the Armenian Genocide. This is the first such conviction ever in the world! Le Temps, the biggest French paper in the French part of Switzerland has covered it here. There is also a reaction of the Armenian community of Switzerland below the main article.

    Dogu Perinçek condamné pour négationnisme

    VAUD. Le Tribunal de police a estimé que le génocide des Arméniens est un fait avéré en Suisse. Une première dans l'histoire judiciaire.

    Fati Mansour
    Samedi 10 mars 2007

    Devant la justiceLe génocide des Arméniens est un fait historiquement avéré pour l'opinion publique helvétique. En qualifiant celui-ci de «mensonge international», en invoquant théorie du complot et droit de la guerre pour justifier des abominations, l'homme politique turc Dogu Perinçek était mû par d'évidents mobiles racistes et nationalistes.

    Tels sont, en substance, les arguments qui ont amené le Tribunal de police de Lausanne à reconnaître l'accusé coupable de discrimination raciale et à le condamner à 90 jours-amende avec sursis ainsi qu'à 3000 francs d'amende à titre de sanction immédiate. Le président du Parti des travailleurs turcs devra aussi verser une indemnité symbolique de 1000 francs à l'Association Suisse- Arménie, prendre à sa charge les 10000 francs de dépens de la partie civile ainsi que les frais de la cause, fixés à 5873 francs.

    Intense émotion

    A l'issue de la lecture du dispositif et de la motivation résumée du jugement, la passion des premiers jours a laissé place à une intense émotion, tant du côté des représentants de la diaspora arménienne que des Turcs présents dans la salle. Pour la première fois dans l'histoire de la justice suisse - et peut-être même mondiale - la négation du génocide des Arménien se voyait sanctionnée.

    Pour arriver à ce résultat, le Tribunal a tout d'abord estimé qu'il n'y avait aucun problème factuel dans cette affaire. Les propos tenus publiquement à Lausanne et à Opfikon (ZH) en 2005, reconnus par l'accusé, visent clairement à nier la réalité du génocide.

    Dans la cible

    La négation de n'importe quel massacre ne tombe toutefois pas sous le coup de la loi, a ajouté le président Pierre-Henri Winzap. Il doit s'agir d'un génocide tel que le définissent la Convention internationale de 1948 et le statut de Rome.

    A partir de là, le Tribunal s'est demandé si seuls les génocides reconnus par des tribunaux internationaux entraient dans la cible de l'article 261 bis du Code pénal qui prohibe le négationnisme. Sa réponse est négative.

    Le texte de loi ne parle pas de la nécessité d'une telle reconnaissance et cela ne doit pas être compris comme une omission. Les débats du parlement lors de l'adoption de la norme antiraciste, qui citaient à titre d'exemple le massacre des Arméniens, ainsi que la doctrine -qui ne limite pas l'application de la norme à la Shoah mais l'étend aux «génocides avérés» - ont fini de convaincre les juges. «Un génocide n'a pas besoin d'être reconnu par une Cour internationale pour prendre valeur de génocide.» Il suffit qu'il soit connu et reconnu en Suisse.

    Connu et reconnu

    Et le Tribunal de citer les exemples de cette reconnaissance. Le postulat du Conseil national en 2003. Le message du Conseil fédéral mentionnant le génocide des Arméniens lors de l'élaboration de l'article de loi réprimant le génocide en tant que crime. Les manuels scolaires qui traitent des événements de 1915 en ces termes. Enfin, une déclaration solennelle du gouvernement genevois en 2001 qui, pour la petite histoire, était présidé à l'époque par Micheline Calmy-Rey.

    «Le génocide des Arméniens est donc ici un fait avéré. Et la récente position du Conseil fédéral n'y change rien», a relevé le président, en mettant cette dernière sur le compte de motivations politiques. Le juge a également rappelé qu'une vingtaine de parlements de par le monde ainsi que le Conseil de l'Europe avaient fait leur cette reconnaissance.

    Restait à déterminer si Dogu Perinçek avait agi intentionnellement et si son comportement était dicté par des mobiles méprisants. Là encore, le président a estimé que l'accusé avait tenu ses discours en sachant que le négationnisme était puni en Suisse. Il n'a fait preuve d'aucune inadvertance dans ses propos, allant jusqu'à évacuer tous les arguments des autres et dire qu'il ne changerait jamais de position. La nature de son mobile, un mélange de racisme et de nationalisme, a aussi paru évidente aux yeux des juges.

    Recours annoncé

    Dépeint comme intelligent, provocateur et arrogant, l'accusé n'a été mis au bénéfice d'aucune circonstance atténuante. Visiblement touché par cette décision, Dogu Perinçek a annoncé son intention de recourir. Celui qui affirme avoir agi dans un souci de vérité a dénoncé le caractère «partial, impérialiste et raciste» de ce jugement.

    «Il n'y a pas de place pour la joie»
    L'Association Suisse-Arménie se dit satisfaite d'un verdict qui fera jurisprudence.
    Philippe Miauton
    C'est «un grand soulagement», a déclaré Sarkis Shahinian, coprésident de l'Association Suisse-Arménie (ASA), lors de la conférence de presse qui a suivi le verdict. «Toutefois, il n'y a pas de place pour la joie, parce que personne ne peut se réjouir de ce qui s'est passé en 1915», a-t-il ajouté.

    L'ensemble des personnes présentes s'est dit satisfait par la décision prise, 92 ans après les faits. «Le verdict fera jurisprudence et donnera un signal fort à tous ceux qui voudraient continuer à nier la réalité historique», a insisté Sarkis Shahinian.

    Le coprésident de l'ASA espère que «cette sentence forcera la Turquie à modifier son discours pour être digne de rentrer dans l'Europe». Par ailleurs, il a appelé l'Etat turc «à cesser de dépenser des milliards pour soutenir la négation du génocide». Cette victoire, Sarkis Shahinian l'a dédiée notamment à l'ex-conseiller national genevois Jean-Claude Vaudroz, artisan de la reconnaissance par le parlement suisse du génocide des Arméniens, et qui décédé mercredi (lire ci-dessous).

    Ueli Leuenberger, vice-président des Verts suisses et coprésident du groupe parlementaire Arménie-Suisse, a demandé quant à lui que «le Conseil fédéral assume ses responsabilités et ne modifie pas la norme antiraciste». «Un carton rouge doit être donné au ministre de Justice et police, Christoph Blocher, pour ses propos tenus en Turquie et pour sa rencontre avec son homologue turc à quelques jours du procès», a-t-il ajouté.

    Dorénavant, l'ASA s'attend à plus de clarté sur le terrain juridique pour pouvoir «traduire en justice d'autres négationnistes», comme l'historien turc Yusuf Halaçoglu. «Il faut arrêter de souiller la mémoire des Arméniens, nous ne faisons que réagir aux provocations», ont-ils conclu.

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  • Joseph
    This will no doubt ruffle some feathers.

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  • Joseph
    Barzani recognizes the Armenian Genocide

    AZG Armenian Daily #036, 27/02/2007

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    Head of the Kurish autonomy of Nosthern Iraq, leader of the "Democratic Party of Kurdistan" Masoud Barzani recently published a work dedicated to the life and activity of his father, Mustafa Barzani. Mustafa Barzani’s memoirs about the Armenian Genocide and mass deportation of Armenians are also included in the work. It is also noteworthy, that the author’s grand-grandfather, Sheikh Mohammad Barzani was the religious leader of the Barzani tribe. Sheikh Mohammad’s son Abdulsalam later obtained both the political and religious leadership of the tribe. In 1914 Sheikh Abdulsalam was executed by the Ottoman authorities. After those events his sons divided the political and religious authority of the tribe.

    At this very moment were started the mass repressions of Western Armenians. Abdulsalam’s son Sheikh Ahmad answered the summons of Armenian warlord Andranik, who was engaged in the organization of self-defense of Armenians. Molla Mustafa Barzani tells that he was among those 200 men sent by Sheikh Ahmad to aid Andranik’s forces. It should be noted that so as to avoid impact with governmental forces the brigade was to declare openly that their aim was to take part in the massacre of Armenians. Unfortunately, the Ottoman government had convinced the population of the empire that the 1915 events were a war of Muslims against the Christians, so that necessary lie was not hard to believe. "We aided the Armenians and accompanied the to the border of Syria", continues Molla Mustafa. "We were engaged by the Turkish forces and suffered casualties of 14 men".

    On our part we should add that Molla Mustafa Barzani lived a long life and passed away in 1979, in the Souleymanie town of Northern Iraq. He was succeeded by his son Masud Barzani, who after his father’s example became had got involved in the Kurd national movement at the early age of 16.

    All the information was taken from the Turkish website.

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  • Joseph
    Assyrian International News Agency
    Jewish Groups Not Supporting Turkey on Armenian Genocide Bill
    Posted GMT 2-22-2007 18:54:16

    Washington -- Despite fears of upsetting a top Israeli and American ally in the Muslim world, Jewish organizations are reluctant to respond to Turkish calls to fight a congressional resolution recognizing the Armenian genocide.

    In the past, Jewish groups have aided Turkey's efforts to prevent the United Stated from applying the term "genocide" to the killing of 1.5 million Armenians by the Turks during World War I. But this time around, the Forward has learned, Jewish organizations are declining to commit to the issue, fearing an uphill battle with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who has vowed to push the resolution through.

    In a meeting two weeks ago in Washington, Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul raised the issue with representatives of several leading Jewish organizations. In the meeting, attended by representatives of eight major groups, Gul stressed the importance that Turkey sees in preventing the passage of the resolution. He asked the Jewish groups to use their lobbying operations on Capitol Hill to aid Ankara's cause.

    According to several Jewish representatives who were in the meeting, Turkish officials warned that the passage of a genocide resolution could threaten Ankara's strategic ties with the United States and, perhaps, with Israel. In the past, Jewish groups have been inclined to side with Turkey, which they see as Israel's only Muslim ally in the region and a power that can check Islamist radicalism and block Iranian influence. The Israeli air force holds exercises with Turkey, and Israeli defense industries see the country as a major export market.

    In sharp contrast, several Jewish lawmakers have sided with Armenian American activists in pressing for a resolution, saying that the moral imperative is to fight genocide denial.

    "There is no debate in the [Jewish] community about the facts regarding what happened; the only question is, are we willing to recognize it while taking the risk of alienating our relationship with Turkey?" said Rep. Adam Schiff, the California Democrat who introduced the genocide resolution January 30. "When you think of Elie Wiesel's words, that Holocaust denial is a second trauma for the victims, it's easy to understand the potency of the Armenian claim."

    Schiff was optimistic about the fate of his resolution.

    "Chances of getting the resolution passed this time are good," Schiff said. "Turkey has some of the best lobbyists in town, but we definitely have the votes." The key question is if and when a vote will take place.

    Rep. Tom Lantos, chairman of the House Foreign

    Affairs Committee and the only Holocaust survivor in Congress, has yet to schedule a debate or vote on the measure. The California Democrat is "focusing on the Iraq debate and has not yet made a decision regarding this resolution," according to his spokeswoman, Lynne Weil.

    Congressional sources predicted that if Lantos tried to block the genocide resolution in committee, Pelosi would ask him to move it to the House floor for a vote and he would end up agreeing.

    The issue of the resolution came up last week, during Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert's visit to Ankara.

    Israel's relationship with the current Turkish government, led by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, has experienced ups and downs. Erdogan was among the first to invite Hamas leaders for a formal visit after their victory in the Palestinian elections; he declared Israel's war in Lebanon this past summer to have been illegitimate, and he recently called for halting the construction project on the Temple Mount. In their meeting last week, Olmert and Erdogan agreed to send Turkish inspectors to monitor the construction in Jerusalem.

    When asked at a press conference if Israel would convince Jewish organizations in the United States to take action against the resolution, Olmert said it was a matter for members of Congress to decide. But he added, "It will be better if independent experts come together and look into this matter."

    Olmert's statement echoed Turkey's assertion that what happened to Armenians at the time of the Ottoman Empire is a matter for historians, not politicians.

    During the Turkish foreign minister's recent meeting with Jewish organizations, sources said, it was Ankara's ambassador to Washington, Nabi Sensoy, who directly addressed the possible consequences of a resolution. The ambassador listed several points of cooperation that could be jeopardized if Congress moves forward, most of them relating to the American military effort in Iraq. The possibility was raised of Turkey closing Incirlik air force base, through which American forces in Iraq receive more than half their fuel supply; for example, Turkish officials suggested, the Incirlik area could be declared a national bird refuge in which flights and traffic are limited. The discussion also touched on the effect that the congressional resolution could have on Turkey's strategic ties with Israel.

    Neither side raised the issue of Turkey's Jewish community in the context of the Armenian genocide resolution. But in interviews after the meeting, representatives of Jewish organizations said that they were concerned over the well-being of the Turkish Jewish community if the government in Ankara decides to express its dismay with America.

    Representatives of Jewish organizations who attended the meeting were reluctant to offer their help to Gul, sources told the Forward. They told the Turkish foreign minister that the chances of blocking the House leadership on this issue were slim, and that -- as one participant later said -- "no one wants to take on a losing battle."

    The meeting included representatives of the American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, the Anti-Defamation League, B'nai B'rith, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, the Orthodox Union, Chabad and United Jewish Communities, the national arm of the North American network of Jewish charitable federations.

    William Daroff, UJC's Washington director and a participant in the meeting, said that "there was no commitment on behalf of Jewish communal leaders on this issue." Another participant, who spoke on condition of anonymity, added that members of the Jewish groups "were sympathetic but would not commit." A third participant claimed that the Jewish community is paying lip service to Turkey on this issue, since all the organizations agree that little that can be done to block the resolution.

    According to several participants, one of the reasons that the Jewish community took a cautious approach in response to the request of the Turkish foreign minister was the concern of "over-promising" and of being seen by the Turks as responsible for failure if Congress approves the resolution.

    "There's no doubt that all the wonderful gestures of friendship from Turkey are much respected," said Rabbi Levi Shemtov, Washington representative of Chabad. "But anyone active on congressional matters would be reluctant to foretell the outcome of a legislative process, specifically in this case."

    Several officials at Jewish organizations have expressed frustration over recent Turkish actions regarding Israel as well as regulations restricting Jewish education in Turkey. "Groups are tired of having [the Turkish representatives] come to us when they need us, but when we need their cooperation, it isn't always satisfying," said a senior official from one of the major organizations.

    Both the Turkish American and Armenian American communities in the United States are weighing in on the House debate.

    Groups representing the Armenian Diaspora have made recognizing genocide a major lobbying issue on their agenda. The smaller Turkish American population is active on blocking the recognition, arguing that the use of the genocide label would be historically inaccurate. "We see the Holocaust as an act of genocide. If lawmakers will decide that the Armenians had suffered genocide, as well, that would make us confused," said Gunay Evinch, president-elect of the Assembly of Turkish American Associations. He added that if the resolution were approved by Congress, it would "alienate Turkish Americans from the American society."

    In the Senate, several Jewish lawmakers have assumed a vocal role in fighting America's refusal to classify the killing of Armenians as genocide. Currently at issue is President Bush's decision last month to reintroduce the nomination of career diplomat Richard Hoagland as ambassador to Armenia. Democrats and at least one Republican, Norm Coleman of Minnesota -- one of two Jewish Republican senators -- opposed Hoagland's nomination last year over his refusal to use the term "genocide" when talking about the killing of the Armenians in World War I. His predecessor, ambassador John Evans, was recalled last year after using the term "genocide" publicly.

    Senate Democrats are now calling on Bush to withdraw Hoagland's nomination and find a candidate who is more forthcoming on the genocide issue. Another Jewish lawmaker, New York Democratic Senator Charles Schumer, wrote a letter to Bush last month arguing that "Hoagland's reluctance to classify the Armenian Genocide as the 20th century's first genocide is a travesty, which leaves us to believe that he will march lock and step with the administration's politically motivated stance of denial."

    Armenian groups in the United States are divided on the issue of nominating Hoagland. While the Armenian Assembly of America has called for approving Hoagland in order to avoid a situation in which the United States has no ambassador in Yerevan for two years, the Armenian National Committee of America is calling on the Senate to continue blocking the nomination.

    By Nathan Guttman

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  • Eilian
    The name's Eilian actually.

    The Temple of Peace houses the United Nations Association and the Welsh Centre for International affairs.
    This is where the Genocide was First recognised in Wales on the 24th april 2001. The First Minister of the National assembly of Wales Rhodri Morgan, laid flowers to commemmorate the victims of the Genocide, and the Archbishop of Wales, Rowan Williams(who has moved to England and is now Archbishop of Cantebury)laid flowers to commemmorate the Martyrs of Armenia.
    Since then the majority of National Assembly of Wales Members recognised the Genocide on 30th october 2002. Gwynedd and Cardiff Councils in Wales recognised the Genoicide in 2004, and the majority of Welsh Members of the UK parliament(MPs) recognised the genocide in july 2006

    This affinity of Welsh people for Armenians is not surprising.We lost our independence about the same time as Armenia and only recently regained some autonomy. " Tchoor" (water)is dwr in Welsh (pronounced door)
    "Hin" (ancient) is hen in Welsh
    "Kar" (stone) is Carreg in Welsh (pronounced Karreg)
    The letters c,p, t change to g, b, d in Welsh as they do in Armenian

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  • Joseph

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