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The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

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  • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

    Originally posted by Artashes View Post
    ---- rediculous tone & interpretation ----
    The 2nd most studied genocide and probably the longest studied genocide to date , but Sweden needs to examine the data again ?
    The wording of the article is 100% turc perspective , which means nothing more than denialism .
    To minimalize a genocide to "questionable" status is to be a party to that genocide and to offer opportunity for further genocides to occur .
    The article is simply a turc ploy to say ... See , someone else is questioning the overwhelming body of historians evidence and conclusions .
    Gee , I'm so excited to see what Sweden comes up with . Such a puzzler .
    For swedens sake , I hope they figure it out .
    Sweden's foreign policy has been directed for some time by Carl Bildt who strongly supported the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 but never criticized Turkey over its ethnic cleansing in the 1990s in the Kurdish regions

    Comment


    • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

      Of course there was an Armenian genocide: Why Benny Ziffer is just plain wrong

      Never mind what the UN and years of scholarship say about the Armenian genocide – according to one Haaretz writer, that's all a hollow post-modernist invention.
      By Daniel Baltman | May 11, 2015 | 12:20 AM |


      Armenian people gather during an anniversary ceremony at a site called "Dudan," believed to be a mass grave of the Armenian Genocide, April 22, 2015. Photo by AFP

      Since the end of World War II, scholars have been trying to understand a recurrent historical phenomenon that has been appearing for thousands of years: What causes one group of Homo sapiens to attack another with utter murderousness and attempt to wipe it off the face of the earth?

      Raphael Lemkin, the Polish-xxxish jurist who coined the definition for this phenomenon and made it an international crime that requires punishment, laid the foundation for the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide that was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948.

      In the years since, researchers have added definitions and characteristics of genocide that were not included in the convention. Historian Scott Straus found that in scholarly literature there are more than 20 definitions of genocide based on criteria not cited in the convention.

      And now we learn that an original definition was also created in Israel: Defining genocide according “what my father told me” and what politicians say. Benny Ziffer proposes these definitions (Haaretz, May 1), and comes to the firm conclusion that the Armenian genocide is nothing but a hollow post-modernist invention.

      The Yiddish and Hebrew writer Elhanan Leib Lewinsky, among the early members of the Hibat Zion literary group in Odessa, wrote that “Laymen need to know their place and not leap to the forefront and go argue with the nations of the world.” In the case we have here, the layman does not know his place, and his arguments carry a strong whiff of denial, quite similar to that of Holocaust denial.

      “There is still a certain degree of sanity and ability to distinguish between nuances that post-modernism tried to blur,” Ziffer maintains against those who place the Shoah and the Armenian genocide in one category. But what can you do when the genocide perpetrated by the Nazis against the xxxs and the one perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks against the Armenians have such similar traits?

      The Armenians were murdered on their historic land, and the catastrophe wiped out the nation’s social, religious and national undertakings. Very little of this was rehabilitated in the survivors’ communities in the West and in the young state of Armenia. The xxxs were murdered on land where large segments of the population perceived them as foreigners. Their national, social, religious and cultural heritage were almost wiped out, but they managed to rebuild some of it in an independent xxxish state or in communities elsewhere.

      Approximately 200,000 Armenians were murdered by the Turks between 1894 and 1896 and in 1909. In the wake of this, small groups began amassing weapons to try to defend their communities. In World War I they joined forces with the Russian Army that invaded the east of the country. “Tens of thousands of Turkish soldiers and civilians froze to death or were cut down then in a hopeless battle against the Russian army, which enjoyed the active aid of Armenian nationalists,” says Ziffer in a bid to justify the Turkish response.

      The xxxs, of course, did not amass weapons, for they had no reason to expect a murderous attack by Germany in the 1930s. But they did start to collect weapons in several ghettoes in Eastern Europe when they realized, in 1942, that their people was being exterminated.

      Ziffer essentially places the responsibility for the murder on its victims. In international law, the murder of a million women, children and other noncombatant populations is not considered an acceptable response to an occurrence on the battlefield. One wonders what Ziffer would have to say to the argument made by Holocaust deniers that Himmler decided on the Final Solution for the xxxs only after the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, in fear that the xxxs were about to spark the peoples of Europe to revolt, and to protect the German home front.

      Beyond declarations of the desire for the xxxs to disappear, before the end of 1941 there was no firm decision to systematically pursue total murder. The Nazis developed the idea of the Final Solution mainly as a last resort among the alternatives at their disposal for resolving the “xxxish problem.” Up until late 1941, many leading Nazis still believed that expulsion and forced emigration was the best option. The Holocaust was more of an evolving process than a genocidal policy from the get-go. It gradually crystallized and was a side effect of the reality of the war.

      In the Armenian genocide, there was a similar process, but it evolved over a shorter time frame – from the summer when the war broke out until the genocide got underway. The expulsion and extermination plans were readied between August 1914 and April 1915.

      An oft-repeated argument is that the Nazi genocide was not directed solely against the xxxs in the lands under Nazi control, but that the intention was to include all xxxs everywhere. And that in contrast, Armenians who lived in certain places, such as Constantinople, were not hurt, and many were also given the option of saving themselves by converting to Islam. In fact, the Armenians in Constantinople were not spared from expulsions. 2,345 intellectuals, businessmen, political leaders and others were arrested, and a majority were killed. Another 30,000 Armenians in the city were also arrested, and at least 10,000 of them were murdered.

      This, of course, requires addressing the question of how absolute and uncompromising the Nazi genocide was in regard to the xxxs. Weren’t there groups of xxxs who managed to escape it or weren’t included in it? And in general, is it right to distinguish between victims of the Holocaust and victims of the Armenian genocide?

      165,000 German xxxs were permitted to emigrate from the country. In the Armenian case, there is not a single example of Armenians who were permitted to emigrate from Turkey. Moreover: Out of 330,000 French xxxss, 80,000 were sent to their death and the rest managed to survive in one way or another. This, of course, doesn’t mean that the Nazis didn’t want to wipe them out, too, but they did not succeed, just as the Turkish heads of state opposed the idea of permitting Armenian women and children to convert, but were unable to fully impose their will due to the interests of local players.

      But all that matters to Ziffer are the stories he heard from his father’s family: “I feel that I am speaking now from the mouth of my late father: He and his family were saved from the Shoah thanks to Turkey, which received them as stateless refugees and afforded them the possibility to earn a living and acquire an education.”

      Never mind what the UN convention and historians say. The narrative history of the Ziffer family is the ultimate and most accurate litmus test for defining genocide.

      Even more bizarre is his reliance on Barack Obama’s failure to use the word “genocide” in relation to the Armenians. “What’s known as the Armenian holocaust, which in the end did not receive supreme, official recognition as genocide from U.S. President Barack Obama,” he contentedly proclaims.

      Okay, fine, but if we want to accept this approach, then why not also apply it to the statements made by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in 2005, that the Holocaust is a myth that the Western world refuses to deal with? Since when do we let politicians, as good and important as they may be, determine what is and isn’t true about history, and how to define historical phenomena?

      So what is Ziffer really trying to say? He adheres to a very rigid message of the uniqueness of the Holocaust, one which even xxxish Holocaust scholars no longer feel comfortable with, and takes it beyond the line that separates the Holocaust and other instances of genocide. Basically, as he would have it, only the Holocaust may be referred to as genocide. And thus he gloriously denies the Armenian genocide.

      True, the Armenian genocide is not the same as the xxxish Holocaust. Both are cases of genocide that share some similarities yet also have some unique characteristics, as would any two instances of genocide.

      Ziffer waxes poetic and says he can picture his father up in heaven above the clouds, saluting President Obama for saving the enlightened world from a historic travesty. My own dearly departed father, through whom I first became aware of the Armenian genocide when as a teenager he brought me the book “The Forty Days of Musa Dagh,” would surely salute the unknown Armenian who wrote this poem in 1915, during the expulsion in the Syrian desert: “In dust and smoke of the Deir ez-Zor desert/The Turks who lost their religion and their faith/Alas! My God, Lord of the Land!/What is happening, what will happen to us?/Is the Armenian people doomed to die”?

      The writer is a Hebrew University historian and Holocaust researcher.
      http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.prem...medium=twitter

      Comment


      • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

        Originally posted by Tsov View Post
        Of course there was an Armenian genocide: Why Benny Ziffer is just plain wrong

        Never mind what the UN and years of scholarship say about the Armenian genocide – according to one Haaretz writer, that's all a hollow post-modernist invention.
        By Daniel Baltman | May 11, 2015 | 12:20 AM |


        Armenian people gather during an anniversary ceremony at a site called "Dudan," believed to be a mass grave of the Armenian Genocide, April 22, 2015. Photo by AFP

        Since the end of World War II, scholars have been trying to understand a recurrent historical phenomenon that has been appearing for thousands of years: What causes one group of Homo sapiens to attack another with utter murderousness and attempt to wipe it off the face of the earth?

        Raphael Lemkin, the Polish-xxxish jurist who coined the definition for this phenomenon and made it an international crime that requires punishment, laid the foundation for the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide that was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly in 1948.

        In the years since, researchers have added definitions and characteristics of genocide that were not included in the convention. Historian Scott Straus found that in scholarly literature there are more than 20 definitions of genocide based on criteria not cited in the convention.

        And now we learn that an original definition was also created in Israel: Defining genocide according “what my father told me” and what politicians say. Benny Ziffer proposes these definitions (Haaretz, May 1), and comes to the firm conclusion that the Armenian genocide is nothing but a hollow post-modernist invention.

        The Yiddish and Hebrew writer Elhanan Leib Lewinsky, among the early members of the Hibat Zion literary group in Odessa, wrote that “Laymen need to know their place and not leap to the forefront and go argue with the nations of the world.” In the case we have here, the layman does not know his place, and his arguments carry a strong whiff of denial, quite similar to that of Holocaust denial.

        “There is still a certain degree of sanity and ability to distinguish between nuances that post-modernism tried to blur,” Ziffer maintains against those who place the Shoah and the Armenian genocide in one category. But what can you do when the genocide perpetrated by the Nazis against the xxxs and the one perpetrated by the Ottoman Turks against the Armenians have such similar traits?

        The Armenians were murdered on their historic land, and the catastrophe wiped out the nation’s social, religious and national undertakings. Very little of this was rehabilitated in the survivors’ communities in the West and in the young state of Armenia. The xxxs were murdered on land where large segments of the population perceived them as foreigners. Their national, social, religious and cultural heritage were almost wiped out, but they managed to rebuild some of it in an independent xxxish state or in communities elsewhere.

        Approximately 200,000 Armenians were murdered by the Turks between 1894 and 1896 and in 1909. In the wake of this, small groups began amassing weapons to try to defend their communities. In World War I they joined forces with the Russian Army that invaded the east of the country. “Tens of thousands of Turkish soldiers and civilians froze to death or were cut down then in a hopeless battle against the Russian army, which enjoyed the active aid of Armenian nationalists,” says Ziffer in a bid to justify the Turkish response.

        The xxxs, of course, did not amass weapons, for they had no reason to expect a murderous attack by Germany in the 1930s. But they did start to collect weapons in several ghettoes in Eastern Europe when they realized, in 1942, that their people was being exterminated.

        Ziffer essentially places the responsibility for the murder on its victims. In international law, the murder of a million women, children and other noncombatant populations is not considered an acceptable response to an occurrence on the battlefield. One wonders what Ziffer would have to say to the argument made by Holocaust deniers that Himmler decided on the Final Solution for the xxxs only after the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, in fear that the xxxs were about to spark the peoples of Europe to revolt, and to protect the German home front.

        Beyond declarations of the desire for the xxxs to disappear, before the end of 1941 there was no firm decision to systematically pursue total murder. The Nazis developed the idea of the Final Solution mainly as a last resort among the alternatives at their disposal for resolving the “xxxish problem.” Up until late 1941, many leading Nazis still believed that expulsion and forced emigration was the best option. The Holocaust was more of an evolving process than a genocidal policy from the get-go. It gradually crystallized and was a side effect of the reality of the war.

        In the Armenian genocide, there was a similar process, but it evolved over a shorter time frame – from the summer when the war broke out until the genocide got underway. The expulsion and extermination plans were readied between August 1914 and April 1915.

        An oft-repeated argument is that the Nazi genocide was not directed solely against the xxxs in the lands under Nazi control, but that the intention was to include all xxxs everywhere. And that in contrast, Armenians who lived in certain places, such as Constantinople, were not hurt, and many were also given the option of saving themselves by converting to Islam. In fact, the Armenians in Constantinople were not spared from expulsions. 2,345 intellectuals, businessmen, political leaders and others were arrested, and a majority were killed. Another 30,000 Armenians in the city were also arrested, and at least 10,000 of them were murdered.

        This, of course, requires addressing the question of how absolute and uncompromising the Nazi genocide was in regard to the xxxs. Weren’t there groups of xxxs who managed to escape it or weren’t included in it? And in general, is it right to distinguish between victims of the Holocaust and victims of the Armenian genocide?

        165,000 German xxxs were permitted to emigrate from the country. In the Armenian case, there is not a single example of Armenians who were permitted to emigrate from Turkey. Moreover: Out of 330,000 French xxxss, 80,000 were sent to their death and the rest managed to survive in one way or another. This, of course, doesn’t mean that the Nazis didn’t want to wipe them out, too, but they did not succeed, just as the Turkish heads of state opposed the idea of permitting Armenian women and children to convert, but were unable to fully impose their will due to the interests of local players.

        But all that matters to Ziffer are the stories he heard from his father’s family: “I feel that I am speaking now from the mouth of my late father: He and his family were saved from the Shoah thanks to Turkey, which received them as stateless refugees and afforded them the possibility to earn a living and acquire an education.”

        Never mind what the UN convention and historians say. The narrative history of the Ziffer family is the ultimate and most accurate litmus test for defining genocide.

        Even more bizarre is his reliance on Barack Obama’s failure to use the word “genocide” in relation to the Armenians. “What’s known as the Armenian holocaust, which in the end did not receive supreme, official recognition as genocide from U.S. President Barack Obama,” he contentedly proclaims.

        Okay, fine, but if we want to accept this approach, then why not also apply it to the statements made by Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in 2005, that the Holocaust is a myth that the Western world refuses to deal with? Since when do we let politicians, as good and important as they may be, determine what is and isn’t true about history, and how to define historical phenomena?

        So what is Ziffer really trying to say? He adheres to a very rigid message of the uniqueness of the Holocaust, one which even xxxish Holocaust scholars no longer feel comfortable with, and takes it beyond the line that separates the Holocaust and other instances of genocide. Basically, as he would have it, only the Holocaust may be referred to as genocide. And thus he gloriously denies the Armenian genocide.

        True, the Armenian genocide is not the same as the xxxish Holocaust. Both are cases of genocide that share some similarities yet also have some unique characteristics, as would any two instances of genocide.

        Ziffer waxes poetic and says he can picture his father up in heaven above the clouds, saluting President Obama for saving the enlightened world from a historic travesty. My own dearly departed father, through whom I first became aware of the Armenian genocide when as a teenager he brought me the book “The Forty Days of Musa Dagh,” would surely salute the unknown Armenian who wrote this poem in 1915, during the expulsion in the Syrian desert: “In dust and smoke of the Deir ez-Zor desert/The Turks who lost their religion and their faith/Alas! My God, Lord of the Land!/What is happening, what will happen to us?/Is the Armenian people doomed to die”?

        The writer is a Hebrew University historian and Holocaust researcher.
        http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.prem...medium=twitter
        Can anyone tell me why the word "" turns into "xxx" in this post?
        Last edited by Tsov; 05-11-2015, 05:53 PM.

        Comment


        • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

          Originally posted by lampron View Post
          Sweden's foreign policy has been directed for some time by Carl Bildt who strongly supported the bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 but never criticized Turkey over its ethnic cleansing in the 1990s in the Kurdish regions
          They are cowards......they are scared of the Turks..........and they will sell us down the river to please the Turks no problem.

          Funny how Turkey got tired of the Kurds so quick after they replaced them from the Armenians......everyone is second class if not a Turk. This is why Turk has no friend but another Turk.
          sickening how many countries bow to the cut throat murdering Turks......Islamic and Christians.

          Tof b rooshoon.....tekem verernere
          B0zkurt Hunter

          Comment


          • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

            Originally posted by Tsov View Post
            Can anyone tell me why the word "" turns into "xxx" in this post?
            lol its one of life's great mysteries
            http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/19896-xxxs
            <<եթե զենք էլ չլինի' ես քարերով կկրվեմ>>

            Comment


            • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

              Originally posted by Eddo211 View Post
              They are cowards......they are scared of the Turks..........and they will sell us down the river to please the Turks no problem.

              Funny how Turkey got tired of the Kurds so quick after they replaced them from the Armenians......everyone is second class if not a Turk. This is why Turk has no friend but another Turk.
              sickening how many countries bow to the cut throat murdering Turks......Islamic and Christians.

              Tof b rooshoon.....tekem verernere
              People like Carl Bildt are specialists in global geopolitics

              They don't care about human rights unless it can be used as a tool to advance their geopolitical interests

              Comment


              • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

                Originally posted by Mher View Post
                lol its one of life's great mysteries
                http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/19896-xxxs
                Thanks, but thats really strange.

                Also what's with all the antisemites in that thread? Are those still around, here?

                Comment


                • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

                  Originally posted by Tsov View Post
                  Thanks, but thats really strange.
                  Also what's with all the antisemites in that thread? Are those still around, here?
                  It was a very small percentage of users, but usually the idiots are the loudest, and most of them stopped participating or have been banned for various reasons. With that said, Israel and the j-ewish people have been no friend of Armenia. The reason an Armenian Genocide resolution hasn't passed in the US hasn't been because of Turkey. It's been because of the ADL and AIPAC who felt they had to do the bidding of Turkey for it to continue its support of Israel

                  And now Israel has very strong relations with Azerbaijan, selling it advanced military weapons, buying gas, and supporting it diplomatically on the international stage.

                  And not to mention Israel's international campaign of launching war on Iran, the only friendly neighbor we have.
                  Last edited by Mher; 05-12-2015, 09:20 AM.
                  <<եթե զենք էլ չլինի' ես քարերով կկրվեմ>>

                  Comment


                  • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

                    This sums up Sweden.

                    Click image for larger version

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Views:	1
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ID:	539113
                    A good turk is a dead turk

                    Comment


                    • Re: The 100th Anniversary - and Events to Mark it

                      Brazil unanimously adopts resolution on Armenian Genocide

                      The Federal Senate of Brazil unanimously adopted a resolution officially recognizing the Armenian Genocide on Wednesday. The resolution was introduced by Aloysio Ferreira Filho, Chairman of the Committee on External Relations and National Defense, and Senator Jose Serra.

                      As reported by Armenia’s MFA Press Service, the resolution reads: “The Federal Senate acknowledges the Genocide of the Armenian people, 100th anniversary of which was marked on April 24. It pays tribute to the memory of the Genocide victims and appreciates the contribution of the heirs of the Armenian refugees – thousands of Brazilian Armenians – to the economic, social and cultural life of the country, stressing that no genocide is to be forgotten so that they do not recur.”

                      http://news.am/eng/news/269222.html
                      <<եթե զենք էլ չլինի' ես քարերով կկրվեմ>>

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