Hezbollah

[jgk3]

Re: Hezbollah

nice post Armenian. The keeping of cultural perspectives and geopolitical reality balanced cannot be stressed enough. I guess otherwise, understanding history, let alone the present, becomes a futile, self absorbedly shortsighted act.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

My point is...

It's funny that your post basically repeated everything I have been saying to you and to ElTurco, albeit from a different perspective.

This is not a personal contest to see who can out debate the other, try to be objective and a little more well versed in the region's history.

This argument does not have to be based on whether or not we Armenians want or should to live under Islamic rule. This is a silly proposition. Let's get our minds out of the swamps of the past, we have a free Republic that can defend itself and we also have a Christian/western/secular giant in the region that won't be going anywhere any time soon... Moreover, global Islam will 'not' be making a come back. If you really believe that its proof that you are truly effected by western (more specifically neocon/Zionist) propaganda.

And my point is: Islam per se is not the problem, the problem is regional geopolitics and culture clash. Whoever gains supreme power in any given region they will be prone to abuse their power regardless of religion or nationality. No one here is advocating living under Islam, God forbid. We had too many centuries of that. However, an argument can be made that if we Armenians had to 'choose' living under Islam over living under some secular western power, it would be in the best longterm interests of the Armenian people to live under Islam. Nevertheless, it is also in Armenia's short term and long term interests to be in a close alliance with an Islamic nation like Iran, respect entities like Hezbollah and feel for the plight of Palestinians and Iraqis.

And addressing Hye Psycho's reply:

We must remember that Armenian history, until recent years, was written by our clergy. Thus, they are biased to a great degree. Non-Christian Mongols, Turks and Arabs were recorded in their annals as mythological barbarians. While all the clergy's negative materials written about the no-less violent Byzantines have been more-or-less theological disputes. Culture plays a big role in perception. It's not a secret to any serious historian that historical events are often exaggerated by the writers of history for political purpose. The reality of history is somewhat different, often times quite different. For example: the war between Armenians and Persians at Vardananq is a one sided and quite exaggerated account of what actually may have taken place. There were no 360,000 Persian attacking in the plains of Avarayr, Vasak was not a traitor to the Armenian people (he was actually a pragmatic patriot) and Zoroastrians were not Godless demons. Although the Arab invasion of the Armenian Highlands was brutal (just like the Roman, Persian, Assyrian, Macedonian, Byzantine, Mongol, Turkic invasions of the area) Arab Caliphates nevertheless did managed to form an alliance with Armenia's Bagratuni nobles and even backed them in their problems with Byzantium. A period of progress and development was ushered under this alliance.

Islam like Christianity is not a monolith. Peoples of Islam are not a monolith. Are they generally speaking backward, yes. Are they prone to vigilance, yes. Have we suffered under their rule, yes. But the aforementioned could be said of many non-Muslim peoples we have been in contact with - Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Persians, Bolsheviks, Mongols, etc.

Brutality has no religion. Brutality is derived from a lack of education, greed and/or desperation. Persistent western propaganda about Islam has effected all of you.

[Hye_Psycho]

Re: Hezbollah

My point is, if Islam becomes a power again, which it will, and/or establishes a caliphate or gets Armenians under its rule of thumb, it will not be pretty and we would dream of the days when we were our own secular kings.

A well conceived argument, especially given the horrific treatment Armenians had to endure under the various Arabic caliphate regimes, which expanded their control over the Armenian Highlands. Motivated By the promise of dark-eyed Armenian Virgins, they massacred Armenians on mass, plundered cities, burnt down churches with villagers still inside them... Armenians were declared Dhimmis plenty of motive for then Arab governor of Armenia, Abd-Allah, to wreak a path of death and destruction in his travels around the country.

The bottom line is that under the Islamic Arab rule of Armenia, the caliphate was nothing short of savage, barbaric and in some circumstances proto-genocidal. But how much of this was the actual workings of theological Islam? As apposed to the institutional political creature? It’s the very same monster that rears its ugly head in Christianity, Judaism ext…

Albeit the Arabs treated us terribly, did the self-absorbed, self-righteous Greek clergymen of the Byzantine Empire treat us any better? At the very same time we had a religious fight on our hands against Islam, the Greco-Christian orthodox dogs were doing just as worse in their geopolitical tyrannic bid to bring the Armenian Church into their fold.

It’s the extremist, political-religious doctrines, which spur on violent and barbaric actions. I try and always give the benefit of the doubt to religion and in particular Islam. But logic tells me Anonymous is right, it’s true that their doctrine is especially repressive for the non-believer.

The problem I have is, having not read the Koran, establishing whether those extreme sentiments are actually true (i.e. Mohamed’s spoken words) or Zionist/western manipulation or offcourse that political bureaucratic creature driven by corrupted individuals ??

[Krazy]

Re: Hezbollah

I don't have time to answer by quoting part by part but I noticed from one of Armenian's reply that he's basing his analysis by what his relatives do. Please do not generalize what your relatives are saying and claim all the Lebanese Armenians are like that.
For example, I know many Armenians in USA who don't even speak Armenian. Can I generalize it on all the Armenians in USA?
Hopefully one day you'll visit Lebanon and during that visit, I advise you to visit the Armenian schools and scouts.

About the investments (even though I believe not everything comes with money), I don't have figures with me right now but you have to take into account the number of citizens and make a relative comparison. Please do so Mr. Armenian and let us know the numbers.

I prefer such discussions to happen in a different thread and not inside Hezballah thread.

[Anonymouse]

Re: Hezbollah

I don't want to sound like an apologist for Islam. I see 'modern' Islam as a primitive and backward religion. To me, Mohammad was not a prophet. However, until you live in the Islamic societies of the Levant and Mesopotamia you don't have the right to make the inaccurate claims you just made. If you want to know what Islamic society is truly like speak to a well educated/well exposed Armenian from Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, Iraq or Iran. During the civil war in Lebanon the only problems Armenians had was with Lebanese Christians. Talk to Lucin here about what's it like for Armenians to live under Iran's Islamic society.

It's funny that westerners bitch about Islam being intolerant throughout history when the exact opposite has been true. Although non-Muslims lived as second class citizens in Islamic societies, non-Christians in Christian societies of the West, especially Muslims, were exterminated out of existence. Although non-Muslims in Islamic societies were second class citizens, many were allowed to reach high levels. All Muslims living under Christian powers in Europe were either killed, converted or expelled. The only reason why 'Jews' survived in the West was because of their tight control over Europe's money and trade. All classical Islamic powers, including the Ottomans, have been pluralistic and much more 'liberal' than their western Christian counterparts throughout history.

After losing their independence during the middle ages Armenians fared quite well under Islamic powers, including Turkish. Mohammad himself is said to have given Armenians rights in Jerusalem. After the defeat of the Crusaders in the Middle East in the late 13th century, non of the region's Christians were molested in any way by the victorious and vengeful Muslims. Ottoman Sultans allowed Armenians to establish Patriarchates in Constantinople and Jerusalem. Classical Islam has always been magnanimous in victory, and their medieval societies have been much more sophisticated than their Christian counterparts in the West. Moreover, the Armenian Genocide was a result of pan-Turkic and Zionist manipulations.

The current sad state of Islamic societies have to do with the destruction brought upon by Mongols, Turks and Crusaders. Islamic society never fully recovered from the destruction brought upon by the aforementioned. Moreover, the situation was made worst when the Allies hastily redrew the national boundaries of the Middle East at the end of the First World War for the purpose of exploitation and manipulation. The sick, violent and perverted form of Islam we are seeing today is a modern phenomenon brought upon by a century of western policies in the Middle East as well as the CIA's funding of fanatics in Pakistan during the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. And the oppressive Islamic regimes of the Arabian peninsula, who are the West's closest partners in the region, are that way simply because the West set it up that way at the turn of the 20th century because an oppressive/dictatorial regime was the best bet to secure a constant flow of oil from Arabia to the West.

The 'only' legitimate and honorable organization (political and social) in Lebanon is the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah enjoys very warm relations with the Armenian community of Lebanon. However, it's no secret that these people, those against the Zionist state and the West, are being severely pushed to the their limits. They are being turned into wild animals. Just look at what has happened to the historically peaceful and even docile Arab population of Palestine. It's been a century of constant attacks - military, economic and cultural - against them. So, it would not surprise me if one day these people, turned into wild animals, take their revenge on 'all' Christians in the region. And that would be exactly what the West is actually looking for.

Sadly, the persistent and overwhelming anti-Islam propaganda you are constantly exposed to has effected you subconsciously.

Oh please save me the guff about how we are all slaves of Western propaganda but you have figured this out because you have lived among Muslims and therefore we are all wrong and you are right.

What you conveniently do is the same thing you accuse "Westerners" of doing, and that is cherry picking those things which conform to your ideology and conveniently ignoring all those details that are harmful to your argument.

I have not come here in an effort to smear Islam, the substance of that religion and its history does it itself, but merely to give a proper balance to the almost unchecked Islam praise that goes on in this forum by you and several other posters.

I understand what you guys are doing, and you are providing a counterweight to the pro-Israeli propaganda in the Western world, which is fair and just. I also agree the way Hamas, or Hezbollah are portrayed in the media is again frustrating and unjust.

However, be that as it may, let's not forget the fundamental point that Islam is still Islam, and it is a closed-system, in that it has its own set of rules and regulations and lest you think it is high and dandy, it is not, for it is precisely based in distinguishing between those who are and are not Muslim, and all laws and taxation revolve around these religious lines of demarcation. If Islam is so good, why have Armenians more or less sought to leave Islamic societies and have done so?

Islam is not just a religion, but it is also a culture, an outlook and way of life and embedded in political and familial relations. Contrary to the Western world which has a division between the religious and secular worlds, Islam never underwent such a transformation and thus it has remained stagnant for ages.

As Mises said of Islam, "The religion of Islam has not changed since the days of the Arab conquests. Their literature, their philosophies continue to repeat the old ideas and do not penetrate beyond the circle of theology. One looks in vain among them for men and movements such as Western Christianity has produced in each century. They maintain their identity only by rejecting everything foreign and ‘different,’ by traditionalism and conservatism. Only their hatred of everything foreign rouses them to great deeds from time to time. All new sects, even the new doctrines which arise with them, are nothing more than echoes of this fight against the foreign, the new, the infidel."

And let's not forget the incident a while back with those cartoons of Mohammad that incited the Muslims across the Muslim world to attack and burn the Danish and other Western embassies because they were offended. So now, not even a Westerner in their country can dare express freedom of thought because it is offensive to some backward Muslims. Nor shall we forget the murder of Theo van Gogh. That Armenians fared well under Islamic societies is duly noted and no one argues against that. There have also been not so pleasant experiences of being second class citizens.

My point is, if Islam becomes a power again, which it will, and/or establishes a caliphate or gets Armenians under its rule of thumb, it will not be pretty and we would dream of the days when we were our own secular kings.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

An assimilated Armenian is no longer Armenian my friend, they are just as good as odars.

I'm fully capable of appreciating an odar''s company, although my friends are primarily Armenians. I think there is a lot we Armenians can learn from certain westerners.However, when I come across "proud" Armenians who are anti-Armenia I cant find anything redeemable in them. Perhaps one day they may wake up from their stupidity but I am not going to waste my time waiting for them...

It's not silly my friend, I am not spinning anything. That figure was from 2007, here's one from 2005 http://www.armeniadiaspora.net/ADC/news.asp?id=213 . Mind you that the community like you said is shrinking (you claimed less than 100 000) so the investments will generally fall. Russia has over 2 million Armenians, many of them generous billionaires and many of them with family in Armenia, on top of the country being our big brother. It is expected to happen.

These figures are very misleading, enker. So, based on that list of top foreign investors in Armenia Greece is supposedly a top investor as well? The money that pushed Greece to the top of the list has to do with a single project, one investment, Armentel, never mind that they totally fucked it up and eventually sold it to the Russians. With the Lebanese investment, the 50-60 million dollar figure probably has to do with the Lebanon based Vivacell, Armenia's largest wireless company, which was also then sold to the Russians last year (for over $400 million). Nonetheless, Russia has been by far Armenia's largest trading partner to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars annually. Without Russian trade, investment and money transactions Armenia simply would not survive. Let's not create fairytales regarding Lebanon. Please.

[Federate]

Re: Hezbollah

My expectations are no higher than yours, enker. I expect Armenians regardless of where they live to look towards Armenia as their homeland and stop their clannish behavior, this goes for Armenians from Armenia as well. To me, an assimilated Armenian in the West and a proud Armenian without connections to his/her motherland in Lebanon are the same shit. Actually, I would be able to tolerate the assimilated Armenian better...

Most Armenians in the Diaspora have no clue about what Armenia, the present independent republic, is. They have been in exile for three generations now so the process of looking towards Armenia is very difficult for them. I wish the same as well but it is very hard to expect that they will, there are all kinds of barriers whether we like it or not. A nation of 10 million speaks 2 dialects and has evolved in two different atmospheres for so long for example.

An assimilated Armenian is no longer Armenian my friend, they are just as good as odars.

In reality the opposite was true during the Soviet Years. Moscow suppressed the usage of the Armenian language. The best schools in Armenia operated in Russian. And I would prefer the ugly street slang of Yerevan over the Arabic-Turkish crap spoken in the streets of Burj hamood. Nonetheless, the stature of Armenians in Lebanon is decreasing yearly.

Despite the existence of suppression, people were all Armenians and the Armenian language was fully functional in the country, being the recognized official language in the SSR (alongside Russian). There was/is no danger of assimilation in our republic.

The stature of the Armenians in Lebanon, like every single Diasporan community, will decrease yearly per the "diaspora rule". The difference is that it took way longer to happen in Lebanon than in any other country. It's been 90 years since the establishment of the Lebanese-Armenian community and they are still going strong.

Dude, please. This is betting silly now. What you are doing here is spin. Russia is said to have invested about a billion dollars into the Armenian economy last year and hundreds of millions in the preceding years and you happened to have found a small time segment on the calendar where Lebanon did better? Get real, please. Over a billion dollars gets pumped into Armenia from Russia annually. Why don't you look into that investment from Lebanon. Was it Armenians in Lebanon or was it some inter-governmental deal between Yerevan and Beirut. What has Lebanon done before that and after that? The fact remains, other than a handful of outstanding individuals, I have not seen anything of substance from Armenians of Lebanon.

It's not silly my friend, I am not spinning anything. That figure was from 2007, here's one from 2005 http://www.armeniadiaspora.net/ADC/news.asp?id=213 . Mind you that the community like you said is shrinking (you claimed less than 100 000) so the investments will generally fall. Russia has over 2 million Armenians, many of them generous billionaires and many of them with family in Armenia, on top of the country being our big brother. It is expected to happen.

I agree that not all are bad, but a vast majority are worthless. And their disdain towards the homeland and its people, regardless of "akhpar", "46-48," "Levon" (who is an Akhpar by the way), is despicable and inexcusable.

I have in my family individuals that would never even think about stepping foot in Armenia. I many know individuals that say Western Armenia is their homeland and not the current republic in the Caucasus. I know many individuals that look upon Armenians from Armenia as lowlives. And these people that I'm talking about, my relatives and friends of my relatives, are "proud Armenians" - like the rest of the Lebanese Armenians. But you tell me, Federate. What good are they as Armenians?

They form part of our Diaspora, which is Armenia's greatest asset. Unfortunately, our greatest asset has been mismanaged internally and from Armenia as well...up until this year with the establishment of the Ministry of Diaspora, I hope.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

Your expectations are set too high, Armenian,

My expectations are no higher than yours, enker. I expect Armenians regardless of where they live to look towards Armenia as their homeland and stop their clannish behavior, this goes for Armenians from Armenia as well. To me, an assimilated Armenian in the West and a proud Armenian without connections to his/her motherland in Lebanon are the same shit. Actually, I would be able to tolerate the assimilated Armenian better...

Lebanese-Armenians, like all Diasporans, have a legitimate reason of not speaking perfect Armenian. However, the same cannot be true for the motherland where everything is in Armenian, everyone is Armenian and it has been independent of Soviet rule for almost 20 years now. Lebanese-Armenians, despite all the slang (slang also present in Armenia), probably have the best education/knowledge of Armenian among the Diaspora.

In reality the opposite was true during the Soviet Years. Moscow suppressed the usage of the Armenian language. The best schools in Armenia operated in Russian. And I would prefer the ugly street slang of Yerevan over the Arabic-Turkish crap spoken in the streets of Burj hamood. Nonetheless, the stature of Armenians in Lebanon is decreasing yearly.

Lebanon is regularly the top investor in Armenia, even more than Russia (probably up until this year, when the Russian government injected a bunch). For example, see this link from last year http://www.huliq.com/23623/armenia-p...stments-in-q-1 .

Dude, please. This is betting silly now. What you are doing here is spin. Russia is said to have invested about a billion dollars into the Armenian economy last year and hundreds of millions in the preceding years and you happened to have found a small time segment on the calendar where Lebanon did better? Get real, please. Over a billion dollars gets pumped into Armenia from Russia annually. Why don't you look into that investment from Lebanon. Was it Armenians in Lebanon or was it some inter-governmental deal between Yerevan and Beirut. What has Lebanon done before that and after that? The fact remains, other than a handful of outstanding individuals, I have not seen anything of substance from Armenians of Lebanon.

They're not all that bad, they should serve as a model for all the Diaspora communities.

I agree that not all are bad, but a vast majority are worthless. And their disdain towards the homeland and its people, regardless of "akhpar", "46-48," "Levon" (who is an Akhpar by the way), is despicable and inexcusable.

I have in my family individuals that would never even think about stepping foot in Armenia. I many know individuals that say Western Armenia is their homeland and not the current republic in the Caucasus. I know many individuals that look upon Armenians from Armenia as lowlives. And these people that I'm talking about, my relatives and friends of my relatives, are "proud Armenians" - like the rest of the Lebanese Armenians. But you tell me, Federate. What good are they as Armenians?

[Federate]

Re: Hezbollah

You must be "Krazy" if you think you will maintain that status forever. Tell me, how is the Armenian community in Lebanon doing today compared to the early 1970s? And don't blame the civil war, it's the Middle East, and wars there are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. And tell me how close you are to your ancestral homeland, Armenia? Not by words, but by action.

Of course you have to blame the civil war, people left Lebanon in masses during those long 15 years. As the population decreases, so does the effectiveness of a community. In addition, the unwritten rule of a Diasporan community is this: as time passes by (90+ years now for our Lebanon community), the probability that the community will assimilate increases. However, there are still many Lebanese-Armenians there and quite frankly, I'd prefer their patriotism over some westernized-Armenian who does not know sh!t about his or her heritage. I'm sure you do as well.

If you are a typical 'proud' Lebanese-Armenian:

You have not set foot in Armenia, although it's literally couple of hours away.

And if you did go to Armenia as a tourist (and not on a gold/diamond buying spree) you probably did not enjoy yourself very much.

You look down at Armenians from Armenia as being either xxxxs or crooks, depending on the gender.

You complain that they speak Armenian mixed with Russian - while you speak Armenian mixed with Turkish, Arabic, French and English.

You feel 'culturally' much closer to Arabs, sometimes the French, and whether you admit it or not, Turks.

It's not always fun being called an "akhpar", nor was 46-48. Levon's tyranny did not help at all either, especially with his purging of the Dashnaktsutyun. Your expectations are set too high, Armenian, especially knowing that the Diaspora is nothing but a temporary state of existence, a long countdown to assimilation. Lebanese-Armenians, like all Diasporans, have a legitimate reason of not speaking perfect Armenian. However, the same cannot be true for the motherland where everything is in Armenian, everyone is Armenian and it has been independent of Soviet rule for almost 20 years now. Lebanese-Armenians, despite all the slang (slang also present in Armenia), probably have the best education/knowledge of Armenian among the Diaspora.

Other than an insignificant number of fighters and some small scale benefactors, what has the majority of the proud and nationalistic Lebanese Armenian community done for Armenia?

Lebanon is regularly the top investor in Armenia, even more than Russia (probably up until this year, when the Russian government injected a bunch). For example, see this link from last year http://www.huliq.com/23623/armenia-p...stments-in-q-1 . And something tells me it's not the Lebanese government that is interested in investing in Armenia. Lebanon was from where the majority of "Nerkaght"-ers came from, ASALA, JCAG, ARA were all founded and were HQ-ed in Lebanon, Monte Melkonian learned Armenian in Lebanon etc. You know all this so I am probably preaching to the choir They're not all that bad, they should serve as a model for all the Diaspora communities.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

The point is, Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product though his movement may have been financed by them at one point. Read our own books. Go to the source of our thinking.

Why so touchy, ElTurco? My comments were constructed from a general premise that Islamic populations have an inherent weakness towards manipulation and exploitation due to their insular and backward lifestyles similar to other third world peoples. My comments were simply meant to drive a point across about the political manipulations of the West in Islamic nations without getting into a detailed conversation about Islamic law and the behavioral psychology in individual Muslims. Nor do I care to learn about your books. So, let me rephrase it: Muslims are predisposed to violence and primitive behavior due to certain cultural and religious elements found in their societies. Western powers seeing this have been manipulating it for generations. It's that simple. Are you happy now?