Hezbollah

[Armanen]

Re: Hezbollah

Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product

You're right, he is a western agent.

[SoyElTurco]

Re: Hezbollah

The current sad state of Islamic societies have to do with the destruction brought upon by Mongols, Turks and Crusaders. Islamic society never fully recovered from the destruction brought upon by the aforementioned. Moreover, the situation was made worst when the Allies hastily redrew the national boundaries of the Middle East at the end of the First World War for the purpose of exploitation and manipulation. The sick, violent and perverted form of Islam we are seeing today is a modern phenomenon brought upon by a century of western policies in the Middle East as well as the CIA's funding of fanatics in Pakistan during the Soviet Union's invasion of Afghanistan. And the oppressive Islamic regimes of the Arabian peninsula, who are the West's closest partners in the region, are that way simply because the West set it up that way at the turn of the 20th century because an oppressive/dictatorial regime was the best bet to secure a constant flow of oil from Arabia to the West.

The 'only' legitimate and honorable organization (political and social) in Lebanon is the Hezbollah and the Hezbollah enjoys very warm relations with the Armenian community of Lebanon. However, it's no secret that these people, those against the Zionist state and the West, are being severely pushed to the their limits. They are being turned into wild animals. Just look at what has happened to the historically peaceful and even docile Arab population of Palestine. It's been a century of constant attacks - military, economic and cultural - against them. So, it would not surprise me if one day these people, turned into wild animals, take their revenge on 'all' Christians in the region. And that would be exactly what the West is actually looking for.

Sadly, the persistent and overwhelming anti-Islam propaganda you are constantly exposed to has effected you subconsciously.

I think you have a misconception about the misconception. If you read our legal texts, you wouldn't make such a statement based solely on political history. Read our books before you understand our behavior through your comfortable "well-researched," "educated," and "academic" analysis of the current Islamic phenomena.

You probably have no clue how systematic and scurpulous legal texts are. For you to narrow "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam"down to a product of Western fabrication is completely unprecise. Do you not think it's possibe that this "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam" is a product of our own volution based on a valid and legitimate understanding of our legal texts. I'm not saying it is, but what I want to emphasize is that it seems you've completed dismissed or ommitted autonomy that Muslims may have had in producing this "sick, violent and perverted form of Islam" yet perhaps valid interpretation of legal scripture.

Just because outsiders may be able to influence the behaviors of certain pawn populations in the direction they want, that does not mean there aren't intelligent enough people who can independently conclude that the direction of the spinned popuation is not in complete disagreement with the direction it is sanctioned to be in by its own jurisdiction.

One quick example is Wahhabism. Indeed it was perverted strain that emerged in the late 18th century and then played by the British to dismantle the Ottoman Empire. But now, in the 21st Century, it backfired on them (Bin Laden). The point is, Bin Laden is not necessarily a western product though his movement may have been financed by them at one point. Read our own books. Go to the source of our thinking.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

Living in one of the countries mentioned, I don't think what you're saying is correct. With the 10+ Armenian schools, 1 Armenian university, 3 Armenian political parties and many Armenian organizations in this small country

You must be "Krazy" if you think you will maintain that status forever. Tell me, how is the Armenian community in Lebanon doing today compared to the early 1970s? And don't blame the civil war, it's the Middle East, and wars there are as inevitable as the sun rising in the morning. And tell me how close you are to your ancestral homeland, Armenia? Not by words, but by action.

If you are a typical 'proud' Lebanese-Armenian:

You have not set foot in Armenia, although it's literally couple of hours away.

And if you did go to Armenia as a tourist (and not on a gold/diamond buying spree) you probably did not enjoy yourself very much.

You look down at Armenians from Armenia as being either xxxxs or crooks, depending on the gender.

You complain that they speak Armenian mixed with Russian - while you speak Armenian mixed with Turkish, Arabic, French and English.

You feel 'culturally' much closer to Arabs, sometimes the French, and whether you admit it or not, Turks.

I think we are doing a good job to remain Armenians. Here in Lebanon, we even get blamed of not considering ourselves Lebanese.

"Remain Armenians" to what end, Krazy? Living in the diaspora is one thing, but proudly boasting a 'diaspora forever' attitude is counterproductive. What matters in any discussion about Armenians is the well being of the Armenian Republic. Regardless of what you want to believe, the diaspora is a dead end. While the Diaspora exists it should exists for the benefit of the Armenian Republic. Other than an insignificant number of fighters and some small scale benefactors, what has the majority of the proud and nationalistic Lebanese Armenian community done for Armenia?

For me, a single repatriated Armenian in Armenia, or an Armenian that keeps an intimate connection with his/her homeland, is worth more than the entire Armenian diaspora.

[Armanen]

Re: Hezbollah

You know what Armanen, compared to the East the West has always been so-called decadent

I wasn't trying to compare the two historically, only recently and even then it's quite hard. Some periods have seen more immorality than others, for example the pre-Victorian era in Europe, or the pre-Ming dynasty in medeval China. It's just in human nature to take the easy route, which is often the immoral one. You hit the nail right on the head with this one, modern pop (sl*t) culture is mass produced and spread through all channels worldwide in order to make as many people as possible brain-dead, mass consumers with nothing on their mind other than the new iPod or new flavor of miller lite that they just have to get. Whether one is ok or even comfortable with this is another issue, but for millions around the world the 'west' has come to symbolize mindless creatures with three main drives: eating, sh*ting and fu*king.

However, it is through individual freedoms that progress and development occurs.

I agree, but you know as well as anyone else that individual freedom can occur just as well and even be directed toward more utility in other types of government too. Too often people place individual freedom and liberal democracy side by side as of the two are mutually inclusive.

The question is never - what have you done for me in the past. It's - what have you done for me lately.

Indeed. And that applies just as well with what the 'west' has done for Armenia.

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

I have a lot of respect for you Armenian, I have learned a lot from you but I think you are wrong in some points.

Thank you, enker. We are simply debating a topic, I don't expect you to agree with me on all points.

In Iran women were not treated as bad under the Sjah's regime, they were enjoying a lot of freedom and persian men did respect their women, they were not treating their women ''horrendously'', not as much as they do now.

I agree. I never said otherwise. The problem with Iran is 20th century geopolitics. Had it not been for the West, Iran today would most probably have been the most advanced, most prosperous nation in the region.

What is better? The one which is the best for us Armenians! In an islamic society our Armenian women, unlike in the West, married only Armenians. They are not being influenced as much by the hiphop-sex-rap-xxxx culture the West produces.

In that sense, I agree. In Islamic societies Armenians are forced to keep amongst themselves. However, this brings up the question of Diaspora. What the fucking point of maintaining an Armenian identity in the Diaspora?

Why must it be a total gross exaggeration, can you explain me why the biggest organization in Iran bringing Armenians to America is funded by the xxxs? They arrange everything, be it money, greencards and tickets. Why should they do that? Because they feel sorry for the Armenians?

Many things in this world is run by them. And not everything is a Jewish conspiracy to depopulate Armenia. Besides which, Armenia is just a hop, skip and a jump away for most Persian-Armenians. If an Armenian living in Iran wants to leave its probably easier for him/her to move to Armenia than to America. Their primary intention is to undermine the Iranian state.

I do not know the situation in Lebanon, but I know the societies in Lebanon brought upon a lot of fedayees and nationalistic Armenians, whereas the Armenians in France (with also a history of 100 years) assimilated much faster than the Armenians in Lebanon. Because Armenians adapt faster to the sex-hiphop-fake-christian culture than the ''Arab'' culture in Lebanon.

The secret of understanding Lebanon's unique Armenian population is the genocide era ghetto there called Burj hamood. Most of Lebanon's Armenians originated in this ghetto, including myself. And like Palestinians growing up in their refugee camps since 1948 were taught to hate Israelis, Lebanese Armenians were programmed by the Bolshevik Hnchak and National Socialist Dashnak organizations in Lebanon to hate Turks. Living under very low living standards many of the uneducated ghetto dwellers made excellent candidates for paramilitary operations; and some of these individuals ended up in Armenia in the early stages of the Artsakh war. However, the stature of Armenians living in Lebanon is fast diminishing. Armenians there now number less than 100,000 and most of them are very cosmopolitan in nature and character. Nevertheless, don't fool yourself into thinking that Lebanese Armenians maintain a high understanding of pan-nationalism. Lebanese Armenians are simply proud about who 'they' are. It's a tribal pride. They are proud Armenians, they are not nationalists. There is a huge difference between proud Armenian and a nationalist Armenian. Moreover, their deep love for Lebanon can't be compared to a love for any other nation including Armenia. Although they will deny it a majority of them appreciate Turkish culture more than the "Russified" or "Communist" culture of Armenia.

And if you want to hear some of the nastiest things said about the Armenian Republic and its citizens, speak to a typical Armenian from Lebanon, or Syria, or Turkey.

Also I am talking about the Iranian-Armenian perspective. There is something you Lebanese Armenains did wrong, or maybe the little bit of freedom you got from the Arabs did make Lebanese Armenians Arabs. Armenians in Iran maintained their Armenian heritage and culture for over 300 hundred year, because of their different religion. They all speak Armenian, attend Armenian churches and have a much stronger relation with Armenia. This has recently changed a little bit because of the very few Armenians living in Iran.

Iranian Armenians have had the privilege of living in an Islamic society that has respected them. That's it. The Islamic society kept Armenians to themselves and the respect made them comfortable.

But again, what's the point of being 'proud' about how long you have maintained your identity in the diaspora?

[Armenian]

Re: Hezbollah

I think he is referring to the modern mtv, xxxx culture. Women aren't women, men are like carpets and have no honor, people are all around stupid and super materialistic. This has and will continue to destory the so called 'free socities' of europe and north america. There is such a thing as too much freedom.

You know what Armenen, compared to the East the West has always been so-called decadent; at least since Roman times. [It's just that American pop culture pushed the envelope quite a bit] But this is the price a society pays for individual freedoms. However, it is through individual freedoms that progress and development occurs. Therefore, it's a two sided coin. The problem I see in the West today is the 'corporate/government' sponsored American pop culture that is being push on us all by globalists. Nonetheless, I rather deal with social problems such as drug and sex abuse than live like some religious fanatic's slave. Individual freedoms are essential to the forward evolution of mankind. However, knowing the nature of mankind, I agree that it has to be somewhat regulated.

True, at the same time though it was Armenia that allowed Europe to prosper while Armenia manned the gates and prevented the turks from spreading to Europe earlier than they did. Not to mention the numerious achievements of ancient Armenia, from whence Greece and later Rome got much of their know how, and they are often thought of as the founders of so called 'western civilization'.

Yeah well, armed with that information and $2 will get you a ride on the New York City subway... The question is never - what have you done for me in the past. It's - what have you done for me lately.

[Krazy]

Re: Hezbollah

No. Armenians did not "flourish" in Islamic societies. First of all, Syria and Lebanon are not very Islamic per se due to their contacts with Europe, France and Britain in particular. Nonetheless, these two nations have to be looked upon by Armenians as temporary safe havens. We don't even have a hundred year history in the aforementioned nations and already the Armenian population there is more Arab than Armenian. After several generations there will no longer be an Armenian community of Lebanon and Syria.

Living in one of the countries mentioned, I don't think what you're saying is correct. With the 10+ Armenian schools, 1 Armenian university, 3 Armenian political parties and many Armenian organizations in this small country; I think we are doing a good job to remain Armenians.
Here in Lebanon, we even get blamed of not considering ourselves Lebanese.

btw I had the impression that Armenians in western countries have more chance to lose their Armenian identity than us in Lebanon. It seems without seeing each other, it makes us think the same way regarding the other Armenians.

note: the subject is "Hezbollah". Why are all of you (not only the quote I made) discussing about something not related to Hezbollah?

[Tigranakert]

Re: Hezbollah

By the way, the organizations name is Hayasa, a few months ago they ''helped'' my fathers uncle and his family by bringing them to Vienna and from there on to America.

[Tigranakert]

Re: Hezbollah

The Middle East's approach towards societal issues are a direct result of the region's popular culture, its man made traditions. The problem is not religion - the problem is male testosterone. Non-Islamic Indians, Chinese, Native American's, Africans, etc., also treat their women horrendously. Moreover, what the West has done to the honor and integrity of women is equally horrendous. One has turned women into sex slaves the other has turned them into work slaves. What's better? Moreover, modern Islamic fundamentalism, especially the one we see in Palestine, Iran and Pakistan, is directly rooted in 20th century geopolitics.

I have a lot of respect for you Armenian, I have learned a lot from you but I think you are wrong in some points. In Iran women were not treated as bad under the Sjah's regime, they were enjoying a lot of freedom and persian men did respect their women, they were not treating their women ''horrendously'', not as much as they do now.

What is better? The one which is the best for us Armenians! In an islamic society our Armenian women, unlike in the West, married only Armenians. They are not being influenced as much by the hiphop-sex-rap-xxxx culture the West produces.

This is a gross exaggeration, if not a total fallacy. xxxs did not bring Armenians to America in order to weaken Armenian power in Iran and forestall any future movement to Armenia. That is pure and adulterated paranoia. When we speak in such outlandish terms about our foes, be they Turks or xxxs, it undermines our argument and intellectual integrity.

Why must it be a total gross exaggeration, can you explain me why the biggest organization in Iran bringing Armenians to America is funded by the xxxs? They arrange everything, be it money, greencards and tickets. Why should they do that? Because they feel sorry for the Armenians?

No. Armenians did not "flourish" in Islamic societies. First of all, Syria and Lebanon are not very Islamic per se due to their contacts with Europe, France and Britain in particular. Nonetheless, these two nations have to be looked upon by Armenians as temporary safe havens. We don't even have a hundred year history in the aforementioned nations and already the Armenian population there is more Arab than Armenian. After several generations there will no longer be an Armenian community of Lebanon and Syria.

I do not know the situation in Lebanon, but I know the societies in Lebanon brought upon a lot of fedayees and nationalistic Armenians, whereas the Armenians in France (with also a history of 100 years) assimilated much faster than the Armenians in Lebanon. Because Armenians adapt faster to the sex-hiphop-fake-christian culture than the ''Arab'' culture in Lebanon.

Also I am talking about the Iranian-Armenian perspective. There is something you Lebanese Armenains did wrong, or maybe the little bit of freedom you got from the Arabs did make Lebanese Armenians Arabs. Armenians in Iran maintained their Armenian heritage and culture for over 300 hundred year, because of their different religion. They all speak Armenian, attend Armenian churches and have a much stronger relation with Armenia. This has recently changed a little bit because of the very few Armenians living in Iran.

The point is, had the Armenians stayed in these countries, will it be Lebanon, Iran, Syria, they would be in huge numbers. They would have their own huge neigboorhoods, their own Armenian schools (what you rarely have in Western sex-countries) and a lot would speak Armenian, unlike Armenians in the West (France, Russia, America). And from the year 2005-and beyond, I would bet tens of thousands of Armenians from Iran, Lebanon, Syria would have moved to Armenia, would have gone on vacation in Armenia, would have had more connection with their motherland (also for the obvious reason that they are closer to their motherland!). A lot, lot more than Armenians in Western countries do now, that is what I am trying to tell. If the Armenians stayed in these countries, a lot of them would have repatriated back to Armenia or at least invest and go to vacation there, buy homes and businesses. Just look how many Parskahayer there are in Armenia, even if they are as few as they are now. Imagine, if they were one million large...

Historically, second class Armenians were allowed to quietly live and trade in the Persian and Ottoman empires. Although Armenians were not directly oppressed by Ottoman and Persian authorities and many were allowed to succeed in various careers, the vast majority of Armenians nonetheless could not dream of being anything but second class citizens, or gavurs. Life for the Armenian population under Islamic rule was so stagnant and insular that they began to eventually resemble their Muslim neighbors in culture and in demeanor. By the turn of the 20th century the only thing that could really distinguish an Armenian from his/her Kurdish, Turkish or Persian neighbors was religion.

I disagree. Armenians were alloyed to party, to make music, to drink. The islamic regime has surpressed it's own ''muslim'' citizens ten times harder than they did on the Armenians. The Armenians are respected in Iran, if you tell someone you are an Armenian he will look upon you with respect, not because of our religion but because of our reputation. A Turk and a Kurd are looked down upon, and are not comparable with Armenians. And even if they ''supress'' the Armenians, this is a good thing. This was the cause we stayed Armenians, we had our own neigboorhoods and we did not mix. The Western-sex-hiphop-rap culture is ten times as bad.

The culture of the western world is the very heartbeat of the world. Without Europe the world will once again decline into the dark ages.

I rather have my personal freedoms (as well as casual sex, getting drunk and western pop music) than live a desolate life in a little mud hut making donkey saddles all day...

Western culture, Russian in particular, brought us Armenians out of the primitive, Islamic, Anatolian/Middle Eastern lifestyle and into the modern world. Without Russia/western culture Armenia today would not have its institutions of higher learning, its great musical composers, its great war heroes, its great poets, its great artists - its republic...

Armenian, the point is that if Armenians stayed in the islamic countries, they would have repatriated much faster back to Armenia when Armenia got her independence, was stable and economical ''free''. I am not saying Armenians must have lived in these countries for their entire life, no! They should have maintained there untill they repatriated back to our free Armenia! What they would have done faster because Armenia would have been ten timer better than the islamic countries they lived in.

I am talking about the Diaspora, not what Russia's influence was on Armenia. If Armenians repatriated, the Armenians now in Armenia could have learned the primitive, islamic-Anatolian Armenians from Iran or Lebanon, the real amazing modern and Western culture they learned from Russia.

Monte Melkonian also discussed this topic and came to the obvious conclusion that Armenians from islamic countries are far more attached to their motherland and patriotic compared to the Armenians in Western hiphop-sex countries.

[Armanen]

Re: Hezbollah

I rather have my personal freedoms (as well as casual sex, getting drunk and western pop music) than live a desolate life in a little mud hut making donkey saddles all day...

I think he is referring to the modern mtv, xxxx culture. Women aren't women, men are like carpets and have no honor, people are all around stupid and super materialistic. This has and will continue to destory the so called 'free socities' of europe and north america. There is such a thing as too much freedom.

Western culture, Russian in particular, brought us Armenians out of the primitive, Islamic, Anatolian/Middle Eastern lifestyle and into the modern world.

True, at the same time though it was Armenia that allowed Europe to prosper while Armenia manned the gates and prevented the turks from spreading to Europe earlier than they did. Not to mention the numerious achievements of ancient Armenia, from whence Greece and later Rome got much of their know how, and they are often thought of as the founders of so called 'western civilization'.