Zimmerman Case

[Haykakan]

Re: Zimmerman Case

And all of the research showing that the conviction rate is higher for black persons in otherwise identical crimes? Or that white victim with black defendant is the most likely combination to get a conviction (compared to black victim and white defendant, or white/white, etc.).

You may think that race would have no impact for you if you were a juror, but it simply isn't the case on the whole.

Many people cannot imagine what it is like to be black in USA. Even if you ignore all the suffering blacks endured before (slavery,racism,segregation..) and base things on the present you will still see that race plays an important factor. If you are a black man looking for a job you never really know if you did not get that job because there was a better candidate or simply because there was a white candidate.

[Eddo211]

Re: Zimmerman Case

And all of the research showing that the conviction rate is higher for black persons in otherwise identical crimes? Or that white victim with black defendant is the most likely combination to get a conviction (compared to black victim and white defendant, or white/white, etc.).

You may think that race would have no impact for you if you were a juror, but it simply isn't the case on the whole.

You may want to look up the fact that who has benefited the most and have gotten off the hook from this self defense law in court systems......yes, it is the African Americans.

As a Juror you have certain instructions that you must follow, even as a racists it would be hard not follow the rules and at most you will get a hung jury, unless everyone of those Jurors decided to go with race.


To add:

In a US criminal justice system, after a long Jury selection system by the defense and prosecutions, at the end of the trial the jury is instructed on the laws and its procedures in this type of the case by the Judge. As a Juror it is your responsibility to pass your vote/decision based on laws, evidence presented, testimonies, and anything the court decides that should not be used as evidence instead of passing judgment based on feelings, assumptions, mistrust, or race.

The US justice system is far from perfect and race does play a role in overall indictments.....however to me it is the best we have compared to all other countries.

[Siggie]

Re: Zimmerman Case

You may want to look up the fact that who has benefited the most and have gotten off the hook from this self defense law in court systems......yes, it is the African Americans.

As a Juror you have certain instructions that you must follow, even as a racists it would be hard not follow the rules and at most you will get a hung jury, unless everyone of those Jurors decided to go with race.


To add:

In a US criminal justice system, after a long Jury selection system by the defense and prosecutions, at the end of the trial the jury is instructed on the laws and its procedures in this type of the case by the Judge. As a Juror it is your responsibility to pass your vote/decision based on laws, evidence presented, testimonies, and anything the court decides that should not be used as evidence instead of passing judgment based on feelings, assumptions, mistrust, or race.

The US justice system is far from perfect and race does play a role in overall indictments.....however to me it is the best we have compared to all other countries.

You're not reading what I'm actually saying and instead you're giving me very general descriptions of the responsibilities of jurors? I'm familiar with criminal law, criminal procedure, and the rules of evidence... What I am saying is different. I am telling you there's a large body of research showing that holding everything else constant except the race of the defendant, black defendants are more likely to be convicted (this is especially true if the victim is white).

So to say that race doesn't influence legal outcomes is demonstrably false.

I am not saying that that is what happened in the Zimmerman trial. In that instance, I think it's the law itself that's the problem.

With that clarified, I'd rather not go in circles with you because you seem to think that if one acknowledges that there's some bias in the legal system then one must also be hell bent on repealing the 2nd amendment or something. You're confounding the issues; they're independent. It's possible to support the people's right to bear arms while simultaneously believing Florida's self-defense law to be overly broad and dangerous.

[Eddo211]

Re: Zimmerman Case

You're not reading what I'm actually saying and instead you're giving me very general descriptions of the responsibilities of jurors? I'm familiar with criminal law, criminal procedure, and the rules of evidence... What I am saying is different. I am telling you there's a large body of research showing that holding everything else constant except the race of the defendant, black defendants are more likely to be convicted (this is especially true if the victim is white).

So to say that race doesn't influence legal outcomes is demonstrably false.

It seems you are the one who is not reading what I am saying.....I did acknowledge in my post that race does play a role in convictions, indictments (see last paragraph of my last post) and you know what? in overall picture of the justice system and the ones who get away with murder the most are the foxy white females compared to black females.

I am not saying that that is what happened in the Zimmerman trial. In that instance, I think it's the law itself that's the problem.

With that clarified, I'd rather not go in circles with you because you seem to think that if one acknowledges that there's some bias in the legal system then one must also be hell bent on repealing the 2nd amendment or something. You're confounding the issues; they're independent. It's possible to support the people's right to bear arms while simultaneously believing Florida's self-defense law to be overly broad and dangerous.

Like I said, you mam are a "Social Engineer" who wants to change well proven laws in effect for hundreds of years just because you don't like the juries verdict and you play judge and jury......people like you are the ones who are a bigger threat to our liberty and God given rights than the enemy abroad.

[Siggie]

Re: Zimmerman Case

It seems you are the one who is not reading what I am saying.....I did acknowledge in my post that race does play a role in convictions, indictments (see last paragraph of my last post) and you know what? in overall picture of the justice system and the ones who get away with murder the most are the foxy white females compared to black females.

That's an interesting claim, why do you think that?

Like I said, you mam are a "Social Engineer" who wants to change well proven laws in effect for hundreds of years just because you don't like the juries verdict and you play judge and jury......people like you are the ones who are a bigger threat to our liberty and God given rights than the enemy abroad.

You sir are building a StrawSiggie to avoid what I'm actually saying.
This is now the second time, I'm pointing this out to you... How is 2005 hundreds of years ago?! I am talking about FLORIDA'S STAND YOUR GROUND law which was passed in 2005 changing the then existing self-defense law and not self-defense generally. How do I socially engineer you into a better listener?

[Sip]

Re: Zimmerman Case

I wonder if StrawSiggie would like to become a moderator here and settle all these arguments

[Eddo211]

Re: Zimmerman Case

Stand your ground law is in effect in more than 20 states and its not the case in Zimmerman trial and so unique to Florida Siggie.......you can point out all you want, I can read between lines, you are as transparent as it can be.

The best would be for you not to visit Florida and all them other states.......follow the sheeple directed by celebreties and watch Hollywood R rated movies.

[Siggie]

Re: Zimmerman Case

Stand your ground law is in effect in more than 20 states and its not the case in Zimmerman trial and so unique to Florida Siggie.......you can point out all you want, I can read between lines, you are as transparent as it can be.

The best would be for you not to visit Florida and all them other states.......follow the sheeple directed by celebreties and watch Hollywood R rated movies.

What's that? I couldn't hear you over TMZ...

This time the StrawSiggie is a vapid star-eyed celebrity obsessed sheep? SMH

That law is not in effect in more than 20 states. That count includes states with castle doctrine that's limited to "your premises/" (e.g. Colorado, California, etc.), but that is different from Florida which used to have that same law, but AGAIN changed it in 2005 to make it even broader by removing any duty to retreat ever (not limited to your premises).

I wonder if StrawSiggie would like to become a moderator here and settle all these arguments

I'm not even trying to settle any argument. From the first, he came ready to paint anyone saying that the outcome left some sense of justice lacking with these broad stereotypical ultra-liberal strokes. He's made the same incorrect statement three times now. That's what I corrected. Otherwise, he's perfectly entitled to his opinion about the law and the way it was applied in this case. We're talking about a value judgment there. Saying that FL's self-defense law is the same as in 20odd states and hundreds of years old though, is not a value judgment it's a statement of fact which happens to be incorrect.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Zimmerman Case

Like I said, you mam are a "Social Engineer" who wants to change well proven laws in effect for hundreds of years just because you don't like the juries verdict and you play judge and jury......people like you are the ones who are a bigger threat to our liberty and God given rights than the enemy abroad.

Hmmm .... what are those "God-given rights"? God and his supporters seems mostly interested in taking away rights - though for some occasions that's good, if you count the right to kill and the right to bear false witness as "rights" (though the military-arm of the God-fearing USA seems to think it never needs to abide by those two restrictions, especially if it concerns that "enemy abroad"). And He/She/It is not at all interested in judges and juries ("judge not, lest ye be judged", etc - or as Marge Simpson said, and as numerous religious fanatics since religion began have enacted, "just kill 'em all and let God decide").

[Sip]

Re: Zimmerman Case

... it's a statement of fact which happens to be incorrect.

Since when do the NRA propaganda sheeple care about facts? Hmmm, it's kinda fun calling the others sheeple. Makes things so much easier to "argue"

Now having said that, Eddo, I hope you realize what the "Sig" in Siggie's name means