Ukraine

[londontsi]

Re: Ukraine

.

One cannot help but draw parallels with Ukraine regards Armenia state security and EU integration.

From the record, the WORLD COMMUNITY gave security guarantees to Ukraine for its territorial integrity
in exchange for the hand over of its nuclear arsenal ( remnant from the Soviet times).

Russia was also a guarantor through this treaty.

Facts on the table show the value of these guarantees.

It also highlights the risks involved to chopping and changing traditional and committed ( all be it driven by self interest ) security guarantors.

[Artashes]

Re: Ukraine

Just read a pro west legal analysis and thought it was riddled with holes. An extremely one sided analysis that clearly favored Washington. Of the several big mistakes was admitting that the legally elected leader was not impeached under the existing rules.
I cannot believe Russia can let Kreim go.
Both US/Euro & Russia made their moves.
US/Euro instigated with planted protesters & Russia used pressure to drop EU move.
This is a contest of east/west and the west has been highly active in their manuevering. Blatantly so. Russia counters.
Sanctions are all west will do. Russia is not devoid of counter moves. I think China will help Russia overcome sanctions.
No west boots on the ground & plenty more Russian boots where the other Russian boots came from.
Ukraine made a mistake.
Artashes

[Artashes]

Re: Ukraine

I'd also like to thank Merv. Very interesting post.
IMO, the EU is going to gut the Ukraine. Russia cannot afford to let go of kriem, as naval access is too important.
Although I think Russia's interests are self serving and not so benificial to others as they would have everyone to believe, I'd like to see them get more than just kriem to counter balance the fraudulent west. And I do think that part of Ukraine that they manage to retain away from the west will benefit more by Russia than the west.
Thanks again for the informative post Merv.
Artashes

[HermanGerman]

Re: Ukraine

Actually Novgorodin is one of the far northern cities near St. Petersburg. Very important in Russian history. Other important places include Vladimir, Suzdal, and Pskov. Moscow rose to prominence later.

Kievan Rus' was indeed centered on Kiev. The prince was converted to Orthodox Christianity and demanded to marry a Byzantine princess. He destroyed all the pagan idols to the Slavic gods by throwing them into the Dnieper and was baptised at Chersonnesos in Crimea, which was a Greek/Byzantine colony at the time.

The Mongol invasion destroyed Kiev and put most of Ukraine under the Mongol Golden Horde, later their inheritors the Tatars who were under Turkish rule.

Only western Ukraine remained outside of this longstanding Mongol slavery and fell under Poland, which Catholicized and polonized them.

Moscow arose as the first principality to break free of Mongol rule. When in 1453 Constantinople fell, the rules of Moscow on the basis of the fact that they had married Byzantine princesses and now that Russia was the largest outpost of Orthodoxy, declared Moscow to be the Third Rome, and Russia to be the inheritor of the Byzantine (and thus Roman) empire.

The other cities we discussed declined greatly at the expense of Moscow, including Novgorod, Pskov, Suzdal, etc. Moscow embarked on a rapid territorial expansion, quickly conquering back territory from the Mongol's in European Russia, wresting away land from the Swedes in the north, and then later on Siberia (which was pretty much uncontested from sparse tribal peoples), the west from Poland-Lithuania, and the south from the Turks.

Rus' became Rossiya on the basis of the Byzantine Greek name for Russians. In turn, Western Ukrainians continued calling themselves Rus', which was Latinized by the Poles into Ruthenia > Rusyns.

That's sort of a brief sketch of Russian history.

Thank you for the information. Could you please name some good online-sources or books etc.? It's an intesting topic, especially the part about the catholization and polonization of the Ukrainian Russian.
Shnoragalutiun

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Thanks for the history lesson Merv. I and many others here needed it.

[Merv]

Re: Ukraine

Actually Novgorodin is one of the far northern cities near St. Petersburg. Very important in Russian history. Other important places include Vladimir, Suzdal, and Pskov. Moscow rose to prominence later.

Kievan Rus' was indeed centered on Kiev. The prince was converted to Orthodox Christianity and demanded to marry a Byzantine princess. He destroyed all the pagan idols to the Slavic gods by throwing them into the Dnieper and was baptised at Chersonnesos in Crimea, which was a Greek/Byzantine colony at the time.

The Mongol invasion destroyed Kiev and put most of Ukraine under the Mongol Golden Horde, later their inheritors the Tatars who were under Turkish rule.

Only western Ukraine remained outside of this longstanding Mongol slavery and fell under Poland, which Catholicized and polonized them.

Moscow arose as the first principality to break free of Mongol rule. When in 1453 Constantinople fell, the rules of Moscow on the basis of the fact that they had married Byzantine princesses and now that Russia was the largest outpost of Orthodoxy, declared Moscow to be the Third Rome, and Russia to be the inheritor of the Byzantine (and thus Roman) empire.

The other cities we discussed declined greatly at the expense of Moscow, including Novgorod, Pskov, Suzdal, etc. Moscow embarked on a rapid territorial expansion, quickly conquering back territory from the Mongol's in European Russia, wresting away land from the Swedes in the north, and then later on Siberia (which was pretty much uncontested from sparse tribal peoples), the west from Poland-Lithuania, and the south from the Turks.

Rus' became Rossiya on the basis of the Byzantine Greek name for Russians. In turn, Western Ukrainians continued calling themselves Rus', which was Latinized by the Poles into Ruthenia > Rusyns.

That's sort of a brief sketch of Russian history.

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

It appears Russia will be taking the Crimea-either annexing it or something like a Ossetia-Abkhasia scenario. The west will get the rest of Ukraine. You could say this would be as it should since one region wants to go one way and the other another but this ignores history and the fact that the Russ was born here at what was Novgrod which is where Kieve is today i believe. To imagine what this is like picture Russia telling america that it was annexing Boston (Plymouth Rock). Lets also not forget that the entire Ukraine would be under Turkish control if not for Russia...i wonder if those fascists in the western part understand this...o what am i talking about its not like they have a say in the matter anyways they are now slaves to the west and it is only fitting that fascists sympathize with the west since that is what the west is now days.

[HermanGerman]

Re: Ukraine

[...] In Ukraine the push was so hard it provoked a push back by the politically active part of the population. If the CU is going to be that advantageous to its members, why were they all so reluctant to be a part of it? Because the only big beneficiary is going to be its initiator, Russia.

Maybe because the potential member states have faced increasing pressure coming from the EU?! We both know that such decisions are almost never just based on pure economic aspects.
However, your statements (in this certain case) are more the sort of allegations we are used to see in mainstream media like CNN. You have not sufficiently justified your initial statement claiming that Armenia's membership in the CU constitutes a "substantial propaganda value".

[londontsi]

Re: Ukraine

US sends F-16 fighter jets to Poland

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10679802/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-live.html

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Ukraine

I am not Russian.]

Never said you were. You are just a copypaster of Russian lies, that's all. You are worthy of the same contempt as your Turkish equivalent - only those Turks copypaste their lies themselves, they don't use foreign poodles to do their genocide-denying work for them.