Ukraine

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

EXPERT: ERDOGAN'S "SUPPORT" OF THE CRIMEA POLICY OF RUSSIA IS CONFLICTING WITH THE STATE APPROACH OF TURKEY

by David Stepanyan

Monday, March 3, 15:00

Turkish Prime Minister Receyp Erdogan's "support" of the Crimea policy
of Russia has nothing in common with the state approach of Turkey,
Turkologist, Artak Shakaryan, told ArmInfo correspondent.

On 2 March when commenting on Moscow's intention to bring troops into
the Crimea, Turkish premier said that Moscow was right in the matter
of the Crimea, as it protects its national interests.

"The statement by Erdogan is in direct conflict with the Kiev statement
of Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, which did not say about
observing of Russia's interests in the Crimea. So, the pro-Russian
statements of the Turkish premier continue his anti-American line
after the corruption scandal in Ankara on 17

December around the ruling AKP and the premier, initiated by the
American secret services, as Erdogan thinks. In other words, by
protection Russia Erdogan is trying to discredit the USA and Europe
in general", - he said.

http://www.arminfo.am/index.cfm?objectid=7AA03F70-A2CB-11E3-91C40EB7C0D21663

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Ukraine

@bell, you are right regarding the US and their so called "coalition of the willing" in the case of the Iraq war violating international law, but the circumstances here are different. I think that Armenia is not important as "proapganda value" because of more then one factor alone. Belarus and Kazakhastan's membership is a much higher propaganda value regarding Ukraine then little unimportant Armenia. A much more important factor is the unique security problem of Armenia. Almost everybody, even the most retarded citizen of Ukraine, should know that Armenia is totally dependent on Russia for security. This aspect alone would devaluate any "propagada value" because Armenia's security problem makes it look weak and open for blackmail. It is absolutely not clear what impact the security question had on Armenia's decision to join the CU and therefore I think that you are wrong in this special case. ....Sorry for my Englih, I am not a native English speaker.

There was plenty of blackmail going on to get Belarus and Kazakhastan's membership, and to get Ukraine's too of course. What was used for the blackmail varied from country to country, and probably Armenia needed only the mildest push to join given its particular position. In Ukraine the push was so hard it provoked a push back by the politically active part of the population. If the CU is going to be that advantageous to its members, why were they all so reluctant to be a part of it? Because the only big beneficiary is going to be its initiator, Russia.

All this is very similar to was used to get America's "coalition of the willing" - almost nobody was completely willing, some of the willing (like Armenia, or Poland) just did it to curry favour with America (and also, I think, as newly independent countries, the urge to appear be important by being involved in a world event), some of the willing were considerably less willing than others and had to be given an extra push through diplomatic sticks and carrots.

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Its on! Russian troops with some armor have taken important military targets ...some shots were fired but no bloodshed mentioned yet. The West who caused all this to begin with is now condeming Russian actions. Putin is not even talking to USA it seems and is communicating with the German leader instead. The navy in Crimea has defected and joined Russia. Nato is yapping but i see Russia holding all the cards here. Kerry threatened freezing Russian assets..

[Mher]

Re: Youkrain

lol the "propaganda" goes both ways

https://www.facebook.com/euromaidanart/photos/a.471321999652135.1073741827.471314229652912/510096219108046/?type=1&theater

https://www.facebook.com/euromaidanart/photos/a.471321999652135.1073741827.471314229652912/510637725720562/?type=1&theater

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Bell you seem to be under the impression that we live in a world where fairness and laws matter. I wonder after witnessing the last few decades what on earth gives you this impression? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that you are not an Armenian? You see we Armenians know better for we have for a century cried out and fought for justice but no one gives a poo about these things - all that matters is if you have the power to get what you want. I really do wish things were different but the world is full proof to the contrary just look at us the Armenians or if you prefer a more current example then have a glance at the Palastinians and many others in between..Precedent might matter in a world of law and order but we do not live in such a world. Law and order do not apply to the strong-they only apply to the weak to keep them weak.

During the early Soviet perion, Crimea was "given" to Ukraine in exactly the same way as Nagorno Karabagh was "given" to Azerbaijan. In both cases the actual populations living in the transferred areas had no part in the decision. If you can't see the parallels, and can't see that the reversal of the transfer of the Crimea to Ukraine will have a direct significance for the reversal of the transfer of NK to Azerbaijan, you must be blind.

Russia is of such importance that Ukraine and the world will have to recognise the transfer (which will probalby come via a referendum and then a short period of independence), and so this will nullfy any arguments that NK is still a de-jure part of Azerbaijan and that borders drawn up during the Soviet period are not alterable.

[HermanGerman]

Re: Ukraine

In the same way that America was so anxious to have Armenian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq - their military importance there is zero - their propaganda value from being there is substantial because it allowed a cover to the lie that it was not all by America for America, but America as part of some willing "coalition".

@bell, you are right regarding the US and their so called "coalition of the willing" in the case of the Iraq war violating international law, but the circumstances here are different. I think that Armenia is not important as "proapganda value" because of more then one factor alone. Belarus and Kazakhastan's membership is a much higher propaganda value regarding Ukraine then little unimportant Armenia. A much more important factor is the unique security problem of Armenia. Almost everybody, even the most retarded citizen of Ukraine, should know that Armenia is totally dependent on Russia for security. This aspect alone would devaluate any "propagada value" because Armenia's security problem makes it look weak and open for blackmail. It is absolutely not clear what impact the security question had on Armenia's decision to join the CU and therefore I think that you are wrong in this special case. ....Sorry for my Englih, I am not a native English speaker.

Edit: You edited your comment as I was replying to the initial version.
Unfortunately I have not read the reports on the topic at the time.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Ukraine

Bell is obsessed with post soviet border changes..like the stinkin west needed a reason to reshape the borders in Serbia? Wtf are you yapping about bell? We already used Serbia as precedent and guess what the west told us to f off anyways so wth are you talking about? New borders or not we still need Russia to defend against the big brother turk u seem to forget about..Precedent means nothing wo real power.

During the early Soviet perion, Crimea was "given" to Ukraine in exactly the same way as Nagorno Karabagh was "given" to Azerbaijan. In both cases the actual populations living in the transferred areas had no part in the decision. If you can't see the parallels, and can't see that the reversal of the transfer of the Crimea to Ukraine will have a direct significance for the reversal of the transfer of NK to Azerbaijan, you must be blind.

Russia is of such importance that Ukraine and the world will have to recognise the transfer (which will probalby come via a referendum and then a short period of independence), and so this will nullfy any arguments that NK is still a de-jure part of Azerbaijan and that borders drawn up during the Soviet period are not alterable.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Ukraine

Why should Armania's membership in the CU help to get Ukraine on board? How did you come to this conclusion? I don't see any real causal link.

Didn;t you read any of the reports on it at the time - just about every commentator on the treaty mentioned this causal link?

It is the same reason that America was so anxious to have Armenian soldiers on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq - their military importance there is zero - their propaganda value from being there is substantial because it allowed a cover to the lie that it was not all by America for America, but America as part of some willing "coalition". The Customs Union was a Russian-initiated project undertaken for Russia's strateigic benefit.

[HermanGerman]

Re: Ukraine

March 1, First Deputy Prime Minister of the Crimean autonomous region, Ruslan Timirgaliev has made a number of important statements. According to him Crimea is under control of self-defense forces and the Ukrainian military on the peninsula has partly defected to the Crimeans. Another part of the Ukrainian units are blocked, and has already handed over their weapon. According to Timirgalieva everything is done to keep the peace and prevent inter-ethnic conflicts.

http://lifenews.ru/static/posts/2014/3/128192/video.mp4

[Haykakan]

Re: Ukraine

Bell is obsessed with post soviet border changes..like the stinkin west needed a reason to reshape the borders in Serbia? Wtf are you yapping about bell? We already used Serbia as precedent and guess what the west told us to f off anyways so wth are you talking about? New borders or not we still need Russia to defend against the big brother turk u seem to forget about..Precedent means nothing wo real power.