What religion are you?

[Siggie]

Re: What religion are you?

I've already supported my claims; Christianity has kept us together as a group and has to a very large extent staved off assimilation. Don't you realize that even with Christianity assimilation has begun to start in America? Can you imagine if we didn't have a national church to bond us?

Without a set of beliefs there is a philosophical vacuum within the person. I'm not talking about standards, laws, etc., I'm talking about "why are we here?' type of questions - the fundamental purpose of life. Without a reason as to why we're here, it is very easy for a person to slip into depression and other mental ailments.

That is of course unless one doesn't regard these types of matters as "important". Then MTV culture will just fill the void for you.

Just because I never cut my hair and have never gotten sick does not mean that a haircut will bring me illness. You're claim is equally illogical. As the famous maxim goes: "Correlation does not prove causation."

I know how we're here. Science answers those questions. There doesn't need to be a purpose for life for people to want to make the most of theirs and to have a good impact on the world that they leave behind. Those questions that are not yet answered don't bother me. I am neither depressed nor otherwise mentally afflicted.

[Anonymouse]

Re: What religion are you?

agnostic-atheist, agnostic leaning towards atheist, wtf? I think this is needless over complication of things. Agnostic means that you don't know, Atheist means that you know that there is no God. The problem with Atheism is that it not only denounces the traditional (old white guy long beard) definition of God, but that it also denounces any definition of god. God in my view is something unique, something outside our understanding, because if not...than there is nothing special about it, it is within our reach of understanding, it is within logic.

Our logic is limited to cause and effect. An event that would unique, in this case would be an effect with no cause. The very start of the universe. Something 'unique' would have had to have happened. So even if you limit yourself to this definition of god, you cannot see yourself as atheist. Because you do not know what happened, its beyond your grasp, but something 'unique' definitely did happen.

Here are some truths we must establish in this thread before we can have any discussion because this is going to be a pointless shouting match of, "Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man."

• God cannot be proven or disproven

This is something that both those who believe in God and those who do not believe in God overlook. In either case and scenario, it is a matter of "belief." The reason the existence of God cannot be proven or disproven is because God by default is beyond the material world. Using criteria that are relevant and relegated to the material world in which we learn about via our 5 senses is an incorrect barometer of establishing the proposition that "God does not exist."

The statement "I do not believe in God" is much different from the statement "God does not exist." The initial exhibits caution and a deference to the limitations of the human senses (and boy are the human senses limited), while the latter exhibits a pomp and arrogance which can only be indicative of ignorance and denial of the limitation of the human senses.

So in effect, no one really knows whether God exists or not, because our senses are limited since we cannot prove or disprove the existence of an immaterial being by using the criteria (science) of the material world. As such, all such statements and musings in this topic are a matter of belief, whether atheists like to admit it or not. There is no point at which we do not believe something. To not believe in God is still a belief.

• Being Armenian and believing on God are mutually exclusive

Ignoring the historical arguments of Armenian preservation among Muslims, there is no reason why being an atheist is somehow less or a sin. That is just silly.

This is not to say that Armenian Orthodox Christianity has no role to play culturally. I'll be the first to admit that to me Armenian Christianity is more of a cultural/racial marker at this point, in this century. Thereby, my adherence to traditions such as baptism or marrying in an Armenian church are more out of a cultural/ ethnic awareness and identity preservation than it is out of a belief that I am god-fearing or love religion. There is nothing that says these two cannot co-exist.

[yerazhishda]

Re: What religion are you?

Just because I never cut my hair and have never gotten sick does not mean that a haircut will bring me illness. You're claim is equally illogical. As the famous maxim goes: "Correlation does not prove causation."

This is a bad analogy. I'm not saying "we survived this long" and "we happen to be Christians" therefore Christianity is a necessity for all Armenians. I'm saying look at the facts, as Anonymouse detailed above. For centuries we lived under Muslim occupation. Without Christianity, nothing would stop Armenians from becoming Muslim to "fit in" or to "move up politically", etc. That would be the beginning of the end. Because Armenians were Christians, the only way they could get married was if the spouse was a Christian. In Western Armenia, the vast majority of Christians were Armenian. See how this works out?

I know how we're here. Science answers those questions. There doesn't need to be a purpose for life for people to want to make the most of theirs and to have a good impact on the world that they leave behind. Those questions that are not yet answered don't bother me. I am neither depressed nor otherwise mentally afflicted.

You cannot make any absolute claims about how we're here. Even I don't claim that. Science does not answer all questions, it answers questions of "how/why it works" not questions like "what is the purpose of life", that's for philosophy/theology.

You do need a set purpose of life and a set of values because without a set of values there is no standard to discern what is "moral" or "immoral". Without a set of values, what you decide is moral is the definition of subjectivism, not the science you are trying to claim.

I don't know how it doesn't bother you but to each their own.

[Siggie]

Re: What religion are you?

This is a bad analogy. I'm not saying "we survived this long" and "we happen to be Christians" therefore Christianity is a necessity for all Armenians. I'm saying look at the facts, as Anonymouse detailed above. For centuries we lived under Muslim occupation. Without Christianity, nothing would stop Armenians from becoming Muslim to "fit in" or to "move up politically", etc. That would be the beginning of the end. Because Armenians were Christians, the only way they could get married was if the spouse was a Christian. In Western Armenia, the vast majority of Christians were Armenian. See how this works out?

Not touching this because you didn't read or understand what I said already.

You cannot make any absolute claims about how we're here. Even I don't claim that. Science does not answer all questions, it answers questions of "how/why it works" not questions like "what is the purpose of life", that's for philosophy/theology.

You do need a set purpose of life and a set of values because without a set of values there is no standard to discern what is "moral" or "immoral". Without a set of values, what you decide is moral is the definition of subjectivism, not the science you are trying to claim.

I don't know how it doesn't bother you but to each their own.

I should have clarified. The purpose of life is one of those unanswered/able ones. I didn't claim there was an answer. I don't think there is a purpose. We're just here and we should make the most of it.

I was waiting to see when you would make the morality argument. Morality comes from society, not from religion. It can develop w/o religion because there are social consequence to actions and incentives for cooperation.

And I never said science determines what is moral.

[jgk3]

Re: What religion are you?

You do need a set purpose of life and a set of values because without a set of values there is no standard to discern what is "moral" or "immoral". Without a set of values, what you decide is moral is the definition of subjectivism, not the science you are trying to claim.

How able are you anyway in discerning what is moral/immoral through your set of values that you have gained by learning about the purpose of life? Does this 3 step process to moral reasoning become initiated consistently because of the manner in which you word and describe your thought process to others, such as to Siggie?

Who's to say that Siggie's reasoning put in everyday practice is so absolutely different from yours just because you believe in God? Perhaps you just describe it differently to each other.

[yerazhishda]

Re: What religion are you?

Not touching this because you didn't read or understand what I said already.

Maybe you should clarify what you said, because I gave you answer.

I should have clarified. The purpose of life is one of those unanswered/able ones. I didn't claim there was an answer. I don't think there is a purpose. We're just here and we should make the most of it.

Claiming that one should "make the most of it" implies a standard of value, whether it be God, one's own life, the life of others, the nation whatever. When you make a statement like this, you implicitly set criteria for what you believe you should "make the most of".

And I never said science determines what is moral.

Then what does? Society?

[Siggie]

Re: What religion are you?

Who's to say that Siggie's reasoning put in everyday practice is so absolutely different from yours just because you believe in God? Perhaps you just describe it differently to each other.

That's pretty much what I was trying to say. Thanks.

We all have very similar moral values. My view is that this is because they come from society (which predated Christianity of course).

[jgk3]

Re: What religion are you?

np Siggie. I also find that society is not a reflection of religion and its numerous institutions. If anything, it's vice versa.

Religion always capitalizes on existing moral values that come from one society or another, especially those that exhibit forms of behavior that are favourable to achieve order over the masses. These values tend to be compatible with a certain set of economic and other environmental conditions that are real circumstances for the religious population. They then publish them as part of their list of commandments, or something to that effect.

If you're looking for spirituality in religion, it's not in their codified moral judgments on human behavior and on other "heathen" institutions.

[Siggie]

Re: What religion are you?

Maybe you should clarify what you said, because I gave you answer.

You are talking about trading one religion for another. I am saying not subscribing to any religion. This started out as a discussion about atheism. Why would one who does not have a belief in any god reject Christianity and then adopt Islam?

Claiming that one should "make the most of it" implies a standard of value, whether it be God, one's own life, the life of others, the nation whatever. When you make a statement like this, you implicitly set criteria for what you believe you should "make the most of".

That's my own opinion. I believe that since I'm here I should do something worthwhile w/ my life. That however has nothing to do with religion. Lots of Atheists/Agnostics still aspire to leave productive lives. What is worthwhile is a personal/societal value judgment.

Then what does? Society?

Yes.

[ara87]

Re: What religion are you?

Remeber this at the begining of the thread?

....but please, no bashing, or telling us why you think your religion is the right one.......

It p.o. people off, and i makes other who haven't answered yet not want to answer. So please argue all you want, but save it for another thread.