Religion and Atheism

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Ah, getting personal again? Must be frustrated.

There is no discussing anything with you. You're about as open minded as Stalin was.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

And you have a terrible read of me. I do not advocate widespread abortion, don't agree with much of the modern (3rd wave i guess?) feminist movement, and I think communism was a terrible idea (I'm a fan of personal responsibility).

Bahahahahahahahah. Can't believe I missed this one.

[Sip]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I'm not religious = I have no self discipline

That is probably the most common mistake most people make (it's like the first example used in any logic or basic math course -- look up converse, inverse, and contra-positive if you haven't taken such courses).

True: I am religious --> I have self discipline
True: I do not have self discipline --> I am not religious.
FALSE: I do not have self discipline --> I am not religious. This, what you said, which is totally wrong.

Yes you have to have self discipline to be religious. But just because you are not religious does NOT mean you don't have self discipline. That's what Siggie was trying to say.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

That is probably the most common mistake most people make (it's like the first example used in any logic or basic math course -- look up converse, inverse, and contra-positive if you haven't taken such courses).

True: I am religious --> I have self discipline
True: I do not have self discipline --> I am not religious.
FALSE: I do not have self discipline --> I am not religious. This, what you said, which is totally wrong.

Yes you have to have self discipline to be religious. But just because you are not religious does NOT mean you don't have self discipline. That's what Siggie was trying to say.

Regardless of what it's called, self discipline requires some basic building blocks to build on. You can call it whatever you want but that's the basis of many religions.

For example, this one blogger is promoting his angle on self discipline http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...lf-discipline/ and he uses "the 5 pillars of self-discipline" as his building blocks identifying Acceptance, Willpower, Hard Work, Industry, and Persistence. Sure you don't have to call it "religion" but in essence he took the concepts from "the 5 pillars of Islam".

He quotes:

"Self-discipline can empower you to overcome any addiction or lose any amount of weight. It can wipe out procrastination, disorder, and ignorance. Within the domain of problems it can solve, self-discipline is simply unmatched. Moreover, it becomes a powerful teammate when combined with other tools like passion, goal-setting, and planning."

The 'Five Pillars' of Islam are the foundation of Muslim life:

Faith or belief in the Oneness of God and the finality of the prophethood of Muhammad;
Establishment of the daily prayers;
Concern for and almsgiving to the needy;
Self-purification through fasting; and
The pilgrimage to Makkah for those who are able.

So according to Islam, there shouldn't be any fat Muslims. So where in the "5 pillars" of Islam does it say that all infidels must be killed?

[Sip]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Regardless of what it's called, self discipline requires some basic building blocks to build on. You can call it whatever you want but that's the basis of many religions.

Once again, no one is saying you don't need disciple for religion. Actually I agree with you 110% that to follow most of these religions you have to have a LOT of self discipline. The problem with what you said is that you said the inverse which is not true.

To recap yet again:

Yes agreed: being religious = having lots of self discipline
(we agree on this so you don't have to say it again).

No, not true: not being religious = not having self discipline.
(this is where you are making your mistake and neither Siggie nor I agree with you).

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Once again, no one is saying you don't need disciple for religion. Actually I agree with you 110% that to follow most of these religions you have to have a LOT of self discipline. The problem with what you said is that you said the inverse which is not true.

To recap yet again:

Yes agreed: being religious = having lots of self discipline
(we agree on this so you don't have to say it again).

No, not true: not being religious = not having self discipline.
(this is where you are making your mistake and neither Siggie nor I agree with you).

Uhm... I know what you're saying but I can guarantee you people with self discipline do the same basic principles periodically.... whether it's going to the gym daily, jogging every morning, etc. People with no self discipline need someone else to kick their butt or motivate them. That's basically my generalization.

"Self-discipline is a form of freedom. Freedom from laziness and lethargy, freedom from the expectations and demands of others, freedom from weakness and fear—and doubt. Self-discipline allows a pitcher to feel his individuality, his inner strength, his talent. He is master of, rather than a slave to, his thoughts and emotions."
— H.A. Dorfman

[Sip]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Uhm... I know what you're saying but I can guarantee you people with self discipline do the same basic principles periodically.... whether it's going to the gym daily, jogging every morning, etc. People with no self discipline need someone else to kick their butt or motivate them. That's basically my generalization.

... and? What does that have to do with what you said about not religious = not self discipline? I don't think we disagree on what self discipline means.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

... and? What does that have to do with what you said about not religious = not self discipline? I don't think we disagree on what self discipline means.

Well the self in self discipline is really redundant. Discipline is really being a disciple unto yourself. Basically a person with discipline is able to learn things on their own and constantly wanting to improve themselves.

"Men are anxious to improve their circumstances, but are unwilling to improve themselves; they therefore remain bound. The man who does not shrink from self-crucifixion can never fail to accomplish the object upon which his heart is set. This is true of earthly as of heavenly things. Even the man whose object is to acquire wealth must be prepared to make great personal sacrifices before he can accomplish his object; and how much more so he who would realize a strong and well-poised life." — James Allen

[Sip]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Well the self in self discipline is really redundant. Discipline is really being a disciple unto yourself. Basically a person with discipline is able to learn things on their own and constantly wanting to improve themselves.

Agreed. So you don't think "not religious = not discplined" anymore? Can we move on?

[yerazhishda]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Maybe we should freshen our minds with some Ethiopian Orthodox mezmur music venerating our own Armenian martyr, St. Hripsime.