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Religion and Atheism

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  • #21
    Re: Religion and Atheism

    Originally posted by Sip View Post
    Sure it takes some ideology to make decisions and create laws but why must it emanate from religion? One can certainly have morality and a sense of right from wrong without religion ... no?

    For example take the 10 commandments ... do we really need religion to tell us that cheating, stealing, murdering, etc are bad things? Can't a smart person figure this out on her own?

    I agree... I find that the issue of morality is inevitably brought up by believers in discussions about religion or atheism. They seem to think morality comes from religion. Though religion contains messages about morality, it does not mean that it is the source of them. It is a reflection of society's views on morality.

    So, no, we don't need religion to tell us that these things are wrong.
    [COLOR=#4b0082][B][SIZE=4][FONT=trebuchet ms]“If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
    -Henry Ford[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

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    • #22
      Re: Religion and Atheism

      Originally posted by Siggie View Post
      I agree... I find that the issue of morality is inevitably brought up by believers in discussions about religion or atheism. They seem to think morality comes from religion. Though religion contains messages about morality, it does not mean that it is the source of them. It is a reflection of society's views on morality.

      So, no, we don't need religion to tell us that these things are wrong.
      Who is to say what is right and wrong? Are you born with this judgement? Society didn't develop from thin air... it evolved over time.
      "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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      • #23
        Re: Religion and Atheism

        Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
        Who is to say what is right and wrong? Are you born with this judgement? Society didn't develop from thin air... it evolved over time.
        What does being born have to do with anything?
        We don't have innate knowledge about many things... What is appropriate behavior in a classroom for example? What happens at a birthday party? These are events and situations for which we learn schemas or scripts. Now, you wouldn't need religion to tell you information about these things and it's the same with moral behaviors.

        Now, you tell me... Why is it generally wrong to lie?
        [COLOR=#4b0082][B][SIZE=4][FONT=trebuchet ms]“If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
        -Henry Ford[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

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        • #24
          Re: Religion and Atheism

          Originally posted by Siggie View Post
          What does being born have to do with anything?
          We don't have innate knowledge about many things... What is appropriate behavior in a classroom for example? What happens at a birthday party? These are events and situations for which we learn schemas or scripts. Now, you wouldn't need religion to tell you information about these things and it's the same with moral behaviors.

          Now, you tell me... Why is it generally wrong to lie?
          That's right, we don't have innate knowledge about many things, which is why we are taught things by those that were here before us. So you didn't answer my question... who decides what's morally right and wrong? Was it done by social experiments to see which behaviour has the best outcome?

          Now as far as lies go... it's only wrong if you get caught. If nobody was around to catch you, and your actions didn't positively or negatively affect other people, there wouldn't be a right or wrong. This is the idea behind individualistic societies where isolation of the individual lessens the effect that one human being has on the other, therefore absolving the need for traditional values. You can't affect the lives of others if you live in isolation.
          Last edited by KanadaHye; 11-10-2009, 02:59 PM.
          "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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          • #25
            Re: Religion and Atheism

            Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
            That's right, we don't have innate knowledge about many things, which is why we are taught things by those that were here before us. So you didn't answer my question... who decides what's morally right and wrong? Was it done by social experiments to see which behaviour has the best outcome?

            Now as far as lies go... it's only wrong if you get caught. If nobody was around to catch you, and your actions didn't positively or negatively affect other people, there wouldn't be a right or wrong. This is the idea behind individualistic societies where isolation of the individual lessens the effect that one human being has on the other, therefore absolving the need for traditional values. You can't affect the lives of others if you live in isolation.
            A lie is a non-truth, so I don't see how that's still not "wrong." What sorts of lies really don't affect anyone else?

            I did answer your question... I said they come from society.
            [COLOR=#4b0082][B][SIZE=4][FONT=trebuchet ms]“If you think you can, or you can’t, you’re right.”
            -Henry Ford[/FONT][/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]

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            • #26
              Re: Religion and Atheism

              Originally posted by Siggie View Post
              A lie is a non-truth, so I don't see how that's still not "wrong." What sorts of lies really don't affect anyone else?

              I did answer your question... I said they come from society.
              You can conceal the truth without telling a lie. It's also not a lie if you believe it's true.

              At one point evolution was being taught wrong in classrooms, does that mean teachers and professors were telling lies? Of course not, they believed it to be true and taught the material even though it wasn't until later that they found it to be false based on new evidence.

              So if you were instead born into an immoral society compared to the standards created by the society in which you were raised, how would you know any different?
              "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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              • #27
                Re: Religion and Atheism

                Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
                So if you were instead born into an immoral society compared to the standards created by the society in which you were raised, how would you know any different?
                aaaaaaaaaaha ... now we are getting to the REAL answer which is "intelligence"!!!

                Morality simply is a result of intelligence. In other words, being immoral is basically stupid.

                Of course there are always contradicting goals and motivations (selfish goals vs more utilitarian goals) and that is where most of the conflicts arise. One can be very smart with purely selfish goals and end up being horribly immoral in the big picture. But then you can argue that that person wasn't very smart to have those selfish goals to begin with
                this post = teh win.

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                • #28
                  Re: Religion and Atheism

                  Originally posted by Sip View Post
                  aaaaaaaaaaha ... now we are getting to the REAL answer which is "intelligence"!!!

                  Morality simply is a result of intelligence. In other words, being immoral is basically stupid.

                  Of course there are always contradicting goals and motivations (selfish goals vs more utilitarian goals) and that is where most of the conflicts arise. One can be very smart with purely selfish goals and end up being horribly immoral in the big picture. But then you can argue that that person wasn't very smart to have those selfish goals to begin with
                  Intelligence is nothing to do with morality.

                  The people who caused the Armenian Genocide were very smart. but they were just plain evil.

                  Or in another case the people who did trials of witches in the middle ages were incredibly stupid, but they were just plain evil.

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                  • #29
                    Re: Religion and Atheism

                    Originally posted by hipeter924 View Post
                    Intelligence is nothing to do with morality.

                    The people who caused the Armenian Genocide were very smart. but they were just plain evil.

                    Or in another case the people who did trials of witches in the middle ages were incredibly stupid, but they were just plain evil.
                    They weren't evil, they were selfish and greedy. Evil is a cause of being selfish and greedy. You can use intelligence for GOoD or DEVIL, all depends on which side you're on.
                    "Nobody can give you freedom. Nobody can give you equality or justice or anything. If you're a man, you take it." ~Malcolm X

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                    • #30
                      Re: Religion and Atheism

                      Originally posted by KanadaHye View Post
                      They weren't evil, they were selfish and greedy. Evil is a cause of being selfish and greedy. You can use intelligence for GOoD or DEVIL, all depends on which side you're on.
                      Selfishness and Greed is not evil, only the excesses.

                      All people are inherently selfish or we couldn't exist (caring for your own health such as eating food is selfish), achieving things for yourself is selfish but without such selfish natures we would have been without Thomas Edison and many other industrialists and inventors.

                      Stalin hated the fact people were too individualistic so dedicated a lot of research in the USSR to finding how to collectivise humanity and make it more like dogs and other animals that could be easily controlled. To suggest that selfishness is wrong is to adopt Stalin's ideological system for humanity, that individualism must be destroyed.

                      As for Greed, again it is a matter of excess. People can have greed to be wealthy, powerful or to strengthen themselves or their country.

                      In both Greed and Selfishness however its when you do so at the expense of others and in violation of other people's rights that Greed and Selfishness can become evil.

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