Religion and Atheism

[hipeter924]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Are you going to actually bring back some venison or just get liquored up and shoot one of your hunting buddies?

Hey, not everyone is D-ick Cheney.

[Stark Evade]

Re: Religion and Atheism

All religions tell you basicly the same crap. It is funny that you mention animal rights while i am loading up my shotgun to go deer hunting. As i have mentioned many times before rights are earned and protected by strength and should animals one day have such strength they will have such rights to. I believe in biodiversity but that is not the same thing as supporting animal rights. I happen to think i have the right to kill and eat animals and i practice this right by fishing and hunting but i also believe in preserving nature so i dont litter, destroy habitat, kill engangered animals... No one will give you your rights, you have to earn it by being smart and strong (some luck never hurts either).

I am not a vegetarian. I eat meat of different kinds several times a week. But I am a supporter of animal rights. You don't think there should be laws against the domestic abuse of pets, or dog fighting? Don't you think it would be better if animals that are raised for food a treated respectfully? Don't you think it would be better to produce cosmetic products and cleaning products without animal testing? Don't you think that the hunting of endangered species should be stopped? The issues of animal rights go beyond whether or not one should eat meat. It's part of our nature to eat meat, yes. But I'd like to believe it is not part of our nature to promote needless suffering.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I am not a vegetarian. I eat meat of different kinds several times a week. But I am a supporter of animal rights. You don't think there should be laws against the domestic abuse of pets, or dog fighting? Don't you think it would be better if animals that are raised for food a treated respectfully? Don't you think it would be better to produce cosmetic products and cleaning products without animal testing? Don't you think that the hunting of endangered species should be stopped? The issues of animal rights go beyond whether or not one should eat meat. It's part of our nature to eat meat, yes. But I'd like to believe it is not part of our nature to promote needless suffering.

Most people including me dont want anyone or anything to suffer any more then needed. I already said that conserving nature is something i practice. Testing on animals is very much still needed-perhaps not for cosmetic reasons but for research and medicine. As i said befor rights are not given to anyone they are aquired by those who seek them and are strong enoughf to keep them.

[Stark Evade]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Most people including me dont want anyone or anything to suffer any more then needed. I already said that conserving nature is something i practice. Testing on animals is very much still needed-perhaps not for cosmetic reasons but for research and medicine. As i said befor rights are not given to anyone they are aquired by those who seek them and are strong enoughf to keep them.

It seems like there is a dissonance between your first two sentences and your last two. If you feel that needless suffering of animals is worth preventing, what is to be gained by having a philosophy that organisms should fight for rights before they get them? It just doesn't seem necessary. If anything that last line sets up a dangerous precident. Where does one draw the moral line? Is rape acceptable in a situation where the victim can't fight back? Killing for food is natural and one can argue that medicine is driven by survival instinct. But I don't think answers for conduct are found in moral relativism or moral totalitarianism.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

The dissonance you mention could be due to the difference in perception of what "rights" are between you and I. I do not believe rights are given nor inherent. The issue of rape is not unlike the issue of a womens right to vote. No one gave women either right (protection from rape or right to vote). It was women who came togather and did whatever they needed to get the power to have such rights and they like everyone else have to keep fighting to keep this power and the accompanying rights. They were not born with these rights nor were they handed these rights, they made their own rights and protected them. I believe biodiversity is good for everyone thus i am all for protecting endangered species but this protection is not a right because it is at our pleasure that they have it and we can take it away at will. A right needs to have power behind it, without this power a right is meaningless.

[Stark Evade]

Re: Religion and Atheism

The dissonance you mention could be due to the difference in perception of what "rights" are between you and I. I do not believe rights are given nor inherent. The issue of rape is not unlike the issue of a womens right to vote. No one gave women either right (protection from rape or right to vote). It was women who came togather and did whatever they needed to get the power to have such rights and they like everyone else have to keep fighting to keep this power and the accompanying rights. They were not born with these rights nor were they handed these rights, they made their own rights and protected them. I believe biodiversity is good for everyone thus i am all for protecting endangered species but this protection is not a right because it is at our pleasure that they have it and we can take it away at will. A right needs to have power behind it, without this power a right is meaningless.

I disagree. I believe one can have rights consistent with morality without them being enforced or enforceable. I see a difference between rights and that steps taken (or not) to protect them.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I disagree. I believe one can have rights consistent with morality without them being enforced or enforceable. I see a difference between rights and that steps taken (or not) to protect them.

How could such rights exist without the power to back them up? You can disagree with me all you like but the fact is no right can exist without power and never has existed.

[Stark Evade]

Re: Religion and Atheism

How could such rights exist without the power to back them up? You can disagree with me all you like but the fact is no right can exist without power and never has existed.

In some respect, it seems like you're proving my point. You're consistently acknowledging a difference between the rights and "the power to back them up." That difference seems to be the most important aspect of the discussion. Whether it is conscious or not, there is some recognition of one idea being independent of the other and this comes from the social evolution of people.

[Haykakan]

Re: Religion and Atheism

In some respect, it seems like you're proving my point. You're consistently acknowledging a difference between the rights and "the power to back them up." That difference seems to be the most important aspect of the discussion. Whether it is conscious or not, there is some recognition of one idea being independent of the other and this comes from the social evolution of people.

There may be a difference between them but rights cannot exist without power thus there is a dependent relationship here with rights being the dependent variable, so dependent in fact that rights cannot exist wo power.

[hipeter924]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I eat bacon, sausages, ham and salami like meats, but I tend not to like any others.