Religion and Atheism

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

However, as a figure of authority he did convert. The question is why would a powerful man agree to represent something that would take power away from him? The Greek gods were just figures or idols, they didn't represent a form of guidance or intellectual enlightenment.

Actually it gave him and his successors more power. After Vespasian no emperor was proclaimed god like Caesar, Augustus or Nero were. Vespasian was the last one to be proclaimed god. However after Constantine we see that emperors are viewed as the voice of god on earth. In the Middle Ages there were two emperors in all of Europe. Both of them taught they were messengers of god. It gave them something exclusive they were the most powerful being on earth safe for god that is what meant for Constantine to become Christian.

Then you don't know much about Roman/Hellenic religions. Still you haven't given real proof how your god is more real than the other ones.

Enlightenment? Are you kidding me?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I guess living in western Europe will turn one into an atheist?

If you read about Perennialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy) you will understand that there as always been a Creator, but people throughout history have seen different aspects of the Creator. Some saw multiple gods, others a few, and more recently, only one. The answers are out there, but you will never get them from science because that is not what science was created for nor should do.

What is wrong with being an atheist?

That piece of philosophy to me seems as an attempt to find a link that in my opinion doesn't exist in religion. they find a minor link but choose to ignore everything else in the religion.
How can people follow a book that basics of the universe wrong, aka sun turning around the earth?

[Sip]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Actually it gave him and his successors more power. After Vespasian no emperor was proclaimed god like Caesar, Augustus or Nero were. Vespasian was the last one to be proclaimed god. However after Constantine we see that emperors are viewed as the voice of god on earth. In the Middle Ages there were two emperors in all of Europe. Both of them taught they were messengers of god. It gave them something exclusive they were the most powerful being on earth safe for god that is what meant for Constantine to become Christian.

Now this is the kind of an informative and well structured post that is great to see!

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

No, it was not made up as a joke. You should probably read the article, and the section on criticism. His logic is not flawed and he explains the position you just brought up, about God knowing someone is believing in him but not out of sincerity. Of course God would know. Just read the article, it is explained rather well.

I know I read something about the context in which he proposed it, but I don't have access to it, as all of my books and such are in storage.
At any rate, the article simply says that reason should compel people to believe. That's not how it works. It's going to take more than an inconsistency-laden bronze age text and the word of others (who have no evidence to offer themselves) to make some believe.

If we said the same about Santa and said therefore you should believe in him because you can only gain by doing so, if he turns out to be real, would you be able to believe in him? Fear of hell which there's no evidence for either isn't sufficient reason to believe.

Well I'm glad you are not a post-modernist. But I could be wrong.

Of course not; I'm a scientist.

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

What is wrong with being an atheist?

That piece of philosophy to me seems as an attempt to find a link that in my opinion doesn't exist in religion. they find a minor link but choose to ignore everything else in the religion.
How can people follow a book that basics of the universe wrong, aka sun turning around the earth?

Not just those basics, but it contradicts itself left and right too. :-/

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Actually it gave him and his successors more power. After Vespasian no emperor was proclaimed god like Caesar, Augustus or Nero were. Vespasian was the last one to be proclaimed god. However after Constantine we see that emperors are viewed as the voice of god on earth. In the Middle Ages there were two emperors in all of Europe. Both of them taught they were messengers of god. It gave them something exclusive they were the most powerful being on earth safe for god that is what meant for Constantine to become Christian.

Then you don't know much about Roman/Hellenic religions. Still you haven't given real proof how your god is more real than the other ones.

Enlightenment? Are you kidding me?

Right... that's why the power was divided among more than one Emperor where in the past, authority belonged to only one. As Christians further expose the ruling bodies and breakdown all the government structures that protect the liars and thiefs, they will be left naked in the streets along with all the leeches protecting their institutions. Blood sucking thieves.

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

I guess living in western Europe will turn one into an atheist?

If you read about Perennialism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perennial_philosophy) you will understand that there as always been a Creator, but people throughout history have seen different aspects of the Creator. Some saw multiple gods, others a few, and more recently, only one. The answers are out there, but you will never get them from science because that is not what science was created for nor should do.

There being universal religion is not evidence of a creator. Yes, people have believed in deities for a looooong time, but that doesn't mean that one exists. One does not follow logically from the other. To say that some entity created the universe is an extraordinary claim and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (but really... I'll settle for any amount of evidence). Where's the evidence of a creator?

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

That's not what I said. I said half of each story was true and the other half of each story was made up to leave question or doubt in order to persuade the third party that THEIR version of the truth is what really occured. It's impossible to prove something that is entirely made up and difficult to prove that it didn't occur. It's hard to prove something that really happened when half truths of accounts are created to change the events and leave doubt.

While this makes a great topic for a film (see Roshomon; it's fantastic), I still don't see your point.
We're not always working from people's memories. The evidence is not limited to personal accounts. That's what you examine, as a first step, if it's not feasible to examine more reliable data.
You shouldn't need to prove that something didn't occur. It's illogical. The court system isn't even set up this way (that's why it's innocent until proven guilty).

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

While this makes a great topic for a film (see Roshomon; it's fantastic), I still don't see your point.
We're not always working from people's memories. The evidence is not limited to personal accounts. That's what you examine, as a first step, if it's not feasible to examine more reliable data.
You shouldn't need to prove that something didn't occur. It's illogical. The court system isn't even set up this way (that's why it's innocent until proven guilty).

Not in the case of a breathalyzer malfunction for a DUI. You're guilty until proven innocent.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Right... that's why the power was divided among more than one Emperor where in the past, authority belonged to only one. As Christians further expose the ruling bodies and breakdown all the government structures that protect the liars and thiefs, they will be left naked in the streets along with all the leeches protecting their institutions. Blood sucking thieves.

Now add the historical context and then you will come to the truth. The emperors that came after Constantine had more power than the ones that came before. Until Charlemagne there was only one emperor in the whole world and he spoke with the voice of god.

Christians didn't do no such thing most of the time the people breaking down the power were not the Christians but everybody but the Christians. Some of these Emperors ruled until WW1 in one form or another.