Religion and Atheism

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Are you really going to ask me to prove the existence of God when we all know that His existence can neither be proven or disproven. We have free will and all can choose to believe in our Creator or not. And I do not know on what basis God will judge us but all I can say is learn the lessons taught by holy books and whether you choose to believe in the Creator or not is up to you. Just do not become one of those militant atheists otherwise you will only radicalize the opposition.

You know what else makes extraordinary claims, the Big Bang theory and evolution. More on this in a following post. Stay tuned.

If there was 1/1000th the evidence for a creator that there is for the BBT or evolution, I'd be a believer.

[Siggie]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Ah now I see what the discussion is about.

Actually, Vartan Mamikonian was kind of an inspiring figure as I was growing up. This was during my early school years in Iran and I clearly remember thinking how clever this guy was compared to all the other mythic heroes I had come to known. The heroes would stick to their principles to the last second of death. This guy did a flip flop on his religion as it suited him. Now I am sure my childish understanding of the true complex history was very limited but it still made a huge impression on me growing up.

Yeah, she's talking about Avarayr.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

So because a book states one wrong thing you should ignore everything else? The Bible and other holy texts are meant as guidelines and as the first step toward knowing the divine. I for one am not a fundamentalist when it comes to the Bible or Christianity in general. But I see wisdom when I read a number of passages in the Bible, and whether it is truly the word of God or not, the ideas that are conveyed to me are good for my mind and my soul.

I think rules created 2000 years ago should not be followed today. There is wisdom in some but others are so filled with BS that it isn't even funny. Marrying ones daughter, genocide of whole cities, killing non believers etc. Most Christians today are selective reading the bible and taking out things what works for them. I've got respect for that but I chose to be honest with myself if i can't accept the whole thing why select some parts of it.

It's not an attempt, it does link the major ideas of the world religions. Does it seem like coincidence to you that the majority of religions have basic tenants, such as do not kill, or defining the steps to living a virtuous life? People's understanding of modern religions is quite poor and this is due not only to the organizing religious bodies but also the fact that most people are too lazy to dig deeper into the subject. A little factoid is that ancient Greeks, the learned ones among them, such as Plato, did not actually believe in the Greeks gods the way the common people did. Plato and others like him were initiates of esoteric groups, what is nowadays called Mystery Groups. Gurdjieff also said you could call his teachings a form of esoteric Christianty, but he correctly said that most people's definition of Christianity and understanding of it were lacking and not in line with what the ancient thoughts, and according to his understanding, this bastardized religions, not just Christianity. I am no expert on mysticism, I have been reading bits and pieces of it for sometime now, but I encourage anyone who really wants to dig into the matters and the heart of religions to find out about the mystical/esoteric aspects of each religion.

Those parts come through evolution, because a society can not survive if they start killing each other. You will never see piranhas killing each other.

I still think those people are making links where they don't exist. Especially towards the Hellenic world. What is Christianity in its core? Accepting Jesus as savior and son of God.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

If there was 1/1000th the evidence for a creator that there is for the BBT or evolution, I'd be a believer.

There is a bigger propaganda machine working for BBT and evolution, more specifically the television.

[Lucin]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Because I see Vartan for what he really was, a general fighting to get more power and grow his own strength and that of his allies.

Unfortunately, what/how you see it does not reflect what he was for in reality... you are twisting it to justify..

Or do you really believe the myths that are being told today?

What 'myths'? The one fabricated by Baliozian and Co.?

This guy did a flip flop on his religion as it suited him. Now I am sure my childish understanding of the true complex history was very limited but it still made a huge impression on me growing up.

He did a 'flip-flop'? You are right, your understanding is rather childish.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

What is Christianity in its core? Accepting Jesus as savior and son of God.

That would be the extremely watered down and fat free version.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

According to Gibbons Christianity was one of the main reasons for the decline and fall of the Roman Empire (West). Also, what do you mean there were no emperors besides Charlemagne and the Byzantine emperor? The Chinese, and Persians had emperors at the same time.

We are talking in Christian Europe.

The fall of the Western part had very little to do with the conversion because there was a part of the population that did not convert. The West fell because the east wasn't there to support the West. the Eastern part has always been the richer part of the empire. This can even be seen during the triumvirate of Augustus, Marc Antony and Lepidus. Augustus got the West and Antony the east and Lepidus got North Africa. Because the West was so poor and Augustus felt cheated they decide to divide all of the income.

So losing that income meant the end of the West, that was also the reason that the East survived 1000 years longer than the West.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

Unfortunately, what/how you see it does not reflect what he was for in reality... you are twisting it to justify..



What 'myths'? The one fabricated by Baliozian and Co.?

How do you explain that there were as many Armenian houses that were fighting against Vartan as with him? And the fact that the rebellion brought his family to the most powerful position in the country?
That his struggle was not for more power and was something more noble than what it really was. He was fighting as any other noble lord would do if his rights were were taken away.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Religion and Atheism

How do you explain that there were as many Armenian houses that were fighting against Vartan as with him? And the fact that the rebellion brought his family to the most powerful position in the country?
That his struggle was not for more power and was something more noble than what it really was. He was fighting as any other noble lord would do if his rights were were taken away.

The western self-centered and individualistic approach to Christianity, which has also started to take roots in Armenia, doesn't correspond to the Christianity that is known to Armenians and their historical experience.

Why would he have believed he was entitled to any rights and more importantly, the right to self determination?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Religion and Atheism

The western self-centered and individualistic approach to Christianity, which has also started to take roots in Armenia, doesn't correspond to the Christianity that is known to Armenians and their historical experience.

Why would he have believed he was entitled to any rights and more importantly, the right to self determination?

He didn't fight for self determination but for his rights he got as a Nakharar. The last thing he was thinking about was the ordinary people, he was to busy thinking about his own power and that of his allies.