How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

[Hyreniq]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Well not exactly. He's most likely referring to the people who have J3wish heritage, claim to be atheists, denouce Christianity, make fun of the bible yet secretly follow a calendar that states it's the year 5773.

I think they were Luciferians so were the French revolutionaries, Bolshevik revolutionaries, young Turk revolutionaries and Syrian/Libyan revolutionaries. Lucifer is their God That is why they say allah-ou-akbar when they blowup a mosque or a church or when killing innocent people.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

This has always baffled me how people ignore all of these horrendous acts in history (post-NT!) coming from the application of the book to life and cherry pick only the few bits in the book about forgiveness and love. But despite this being what people choose to represent their religion when they are endeavoring to present it in favorable light, when it comes time to apply that belief system to their lives, we see things like in history with the witch trails and the crusades, but even in present day we get employers trying to impose their beliefs on their employees and attempting to deny them basic health benefits of which they do not specifically approve due to their religious beliefs, the boy scouts exclusionary practices whereby we are sending the message to some children that they are not welcome because of their parents beliefs or lack thereof or the child's sexual orientation. Messages of love, tolerance, forgiveness, and kindness to be sure.

Nazism is over but I see there are still fans.

As the Pope put it:

I also recall the regime’s attitude to Christian pastors and religious who spoke the truth in love, opposed the Nazis and paid for that opposition with their lives. As we reflect on the sobering lessons of the atheist extremism of the twentieth century, let us never forget how the exclusion of God, religion and virtue from public life leads ultimately to a truncated vision of man and of society and thus to a “reductive vision of the person and his destiny”.

For people who have been using Godwin’s Law for decades to get worked up by this perfectly accurate statement is a bit rich, especially when many have long been throwing the Hitler Youth jibe at a man whose father was a staunch anti-Nazi. As Michael Burleigh wrote the other day:

As a 14-year-old, the future Pope was conscripted into the Hitler Youth, along with the majority of his age cohort. That year, 1941, one of his cousins, who had Down's syndrome, was murdered in the Nazis' monstrous "euthanasia" campaign. As the Nazis ran out of cannon fodder, even young seminarians were drafted into such tasks as manning anti-aircraft batteries, which Ratzinger did in the years before he briefly entered Allied captivity.

It is untrue to call Nazism atheist as such – it had plenty of pagan and New Age mystical beliefs, as well as some nominal elements of Christianity – but the Nazis did despise Christianity. And the decline of Christianity made Nazism more likely, as social Darwinist ideas began to dominate conservative thought, especially in Germany.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/ed...ism-and-nazis/
______________________________________________

BTW, it's no coincidence that Germany aided the Ottoman Turks with the Armenian Genocide. They most likely had a role in telling the Turkish administration to kill the Armenian intellectuals and community leaders first.

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

It's the xxxs again?

Well not exactly. He's most likely referring to the people who have J3wish heritage, claim to be atheists, denouce Christianity, make fun of the bible yet secretly follow a calendar that states it's the year 5773.

I dare you to look to old pictures from the Caucasus and the Ottoman empire and try to find a difference between an Armenian, Turk, Kurd, Persian etc. The Armenian identity we have today is totally different from the one 100 years ago. Under communism it has changed into something that someone living 100 years ago would never recognise. I would even say that secularism had more influence on the modern Armenian identity than did Christianity. If we would do a survey in Armenia today you would find a very small number of believers and the majority are only Christian in name, because it is a part of their culture.

Well that has a lot to do with Communists via USSR forcing atheism onto the surrounding population. Stalin personally took Armenians as well as other ethnic groups as pet projects to repress and purge Christianity out of the minds of citizens just to ease the imposition of their authoritarian state and its ideals. Funny thing about Christianity.... when people are given the freedom of choice, they choose to put trust in their faith.

Western Armenians on the other hand were free to attend church, practice their culture albeit while absorbing surrounding cultures. Church is part of the community and plays a large role in maintaining the Armenian identity (even if it's primarily due to mingling and gossip)

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

"This has always baffled me how people ignore all of these horrendous acts in history "

O cmon Siggie don't you know by now that all those bad things were done by the devil

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

This hostility against Christianity has been created in the secular West, with it has come to erosion of family values, national values, modesty, and much more, in favour of this secular-multicultural system of values. xxxs are notably for this. Without Christianity, God knows what kind of human society we would live in. Our system of values would be based on 'an eye of an eye' system of values and so forth. What Jesus did is replace the barbaric notion of 'an eye for an eye' with a system of values based on love and forgiveness. He provides a way of life that we must strive to live by in order to better ourselves and our society. Christianity has also fundamentally defined the Armenian Identity.

Some of my favourite quotes:

“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”
― C.S. Lewis

“[To have Faith in Christ] means, of course, trying to do all that He says. There would be no sense in saying you trusted a person if you would not take his advice. Thus if you have really handed yourself over to Him, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already. Not hoping to get to Heaven as a reward for your actions, but inevitably wanting to act in a certain way because a first faint gleam of Heaven is already inside you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

Since the first time these words were used droit des hommes was by a secularist and was adopted by the French revolutianaries I would say a society better than the one today. Monotheistic religions have been used to justify the most horrendous crimes ever committed. How many genocides have been committed in the name of Abrahams god?

Too bad that our system of values today are not based on the bible but on the teachings of great men during the enlightenment. I would say look at the Middle Ages if you want to see how a society looks like with values based on Christianity.

Too bad Christians today and in the past didn't follow jesus' teaching. However they did use god to justify slavery, murder, rape, war, plunder throughout history. I guess that is because Christianity was never created by Jesus but by Paul and the other Church fathers and is based on the morality of their time.

This has always baffled me how people ignore all of these horrendous acts in history (post-NT!) coming from the application of the book to life and cherry pick only the few bits in the book about forgiveness and love. But despite this being what people choose to represent their religion when they are endeavoring to present it in favorable light, when it comes time to apply that belief system to their lives, we see things like in history with the witch trails and the crusades, but even in present day we get employers trying to impose their beliefs on their employees and attempting to deny them basic health benefits of which they do not specifically approve due to their religious beliefs, the boy scouts exclusionary practices whereby we are sending the message to some children that they are not welcome because of their parents beliefs or lack thereof or the child's sexual orientation. Messages of love, tolerance, forgiveness, and kindness to be sure.

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

O cmon man religion sounds so much better when it is sugar coated, chocolate covered, strawberry flavored, dipped in fudge, wrapped in cotton candy, dipped in instant amnesia alchohol all this and it has 0 calories!

I would say look at the history of Christianity in the West to see why there is so much hostility against Christianity. I think the people in the West got tired of the religious wars, prosecution etc.
Family values for the most part in the West haven't seen that much of a change except people have gotten the freedom to chose what they think is the best for them. The value is still there the only difference is that people now have the choice what they want and can do with their life.

when Europe was really Christian, national values did not exist I would advise you to go and read some more about how Westerners saw their countries. I would say that the opposite has happened with the withdrawl of Christianity people needed to find something else to identify themselves with, and that was the nation. Look at the French revolution for example.
modesty, and much more,
Christianity is ůulticultural at its core. Go and look at its begins and when Christianity we know as today was formed then you will see how multicultural it really is. I find it funny to see Armenians rage against multiculturalism, because Armenians have always lived in multicultural societies. Or is it the new cool thing to do on the internet?
It's the xxxs again?


Since the first time these words were used droit des hommes was by a secularist and was adopted by the French revolutianaries I would say a society better than the one today. Monotheistic religions have been used to justify the most horrendous crimes ever committed. How many genocides have been committed in the name of Abrahams god?

Too bad that our system of values today are not based on the bible but on the teachings of great men during the enlightenment. I would say look at the Middle Ages if you want to see how a society looks like with values based on Christianity.

Too bad Christians today and in the past didn't follow jesus' teaching. However they did use god to justify slavery, murder, rape, war, plunder throughout history. I guess that is because Christianity was never created by Jesus but by Paul and the other Church fathers and is based on the morality of their time.

So did Islam, Zoroastrianism and our own pagan religion. I dare you to look to old pictures from the Caucasus and the Ottoman empire and try to find a difference between an Armenian, Turk, Kurd, Persian etc. The Armenian identity we have today is totally different from the one 100 years ago. Under communism it has changed into something that someone living 100 years ago would never recognise. I would even say that secularism had more influence on the modern Armenian identity than did Christianity. If we would do a survey in Armenia today you would find a very small number of believers and the majority are only Christian in name, because it is a part of their culture.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

This hostility against Christianity has been created in the secular West, with it has come to erosion of family values,

I would say look at the history of Christianity in the West to see why there is so much hostility against Christianity. I think the people in the West got tired of the religious wars, prosecution etc.
Family values for the most part in the West haven't seen that much of a change except people have gotten the freedom to chose what they think is the best for them. The value is still there the only difference is that people now have the choice what they want and can do with their life.

national values

when Europe was really Christian, national values did not exist I would advise you to go and read some more about how Westerners saw their countries. I would say that the opposite has happened with the withdrawl of Christianity people needed to find something else to identify themselves with, and that was the nation. Look at the French revolution for example.
modesty, and much more,

in favour of this secular-multicultural system of values

Christianity is ůulticultural at its core. Go and look at its begins and when Christianity we know as today was formed then you will see how multicultural it really is. I find it funny to see Armenians rage against multiculturalism, because Armenians have always lived in multicultural societies. Or is it the new cool thing to do on the internet?

xxxs are notably for this.

It's the xxxs again?

Without Christianity, God knows what kind of human society we would live in.

Since the first time these words were used droit des hommes was by a secularist and was adopted by the French revolutianaries I would say a society better than the one today. Monotheistic religions have been used to justify the most horrendous crimes ever committed. How many genocides have been committed in the name of Abrahams god?

Our system of values would be based on 'an eye of an eye' system of values and so forth.

Too bad that our system of values today are not based on the bible but on the teachings of great men during the enlightenment. I would say look at the Middle Ages if you want to see how a society looks like with values based on Christianity.

What Jesus did is replace the barbaric notion of 'an eye for an eye' with a system of values based on love and forgiveness. He provides a way of life that we must strive to live by in order to better ourselves and our society.

Too bad Christians today and in the past didn't follow jesus' teaching. However they did use god to justify slavery, murder, rape, war, plunder throughout history. I guess that is because Christianity was never created by Jesus but by Paul and the other Church fathers and is based on the morality of their time.

Christianity has also fundamentally defined the Armenian Identity.

So did Islam, Zoroastrianism and our own pagan religion. I dare you to look to old pictures from the Caucasus and the Ottoman empire and try to find a difference between an Armenian, Turk, Kurd, Persian etc. The Armenian identity we have today is totally different from the one 100 years ago. Under communism it has changed into something that someone living 100 years ago would never recognise. I would even say that secularism had more influence on the modern Armenian identity than did Christianity. If we would do a survey in Armenia today you would find a very small number of believers and the majority are only Christian in name, because it is a part of their culture.

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

This hostility against Christianity has been created in the secular West, with it has come to erosion of family values, national values, modesty, and much more, in favour of this secular-multicultural system of values. xxxs are notably for this. Without Christianity, God knows what kind of human society we would live in. Our system of values would be based on 'an eye of an eye' system of values and so forth. What Jesus did is replace the barbaric notion of 'an eye for an eye' with a system of values based on love and forgiveness. He provides a way of life that we must strive to live by in order to better ourselves and our society. Christianity has also fundamentally defined the Armenian Identity.

Some of my favourite quotes:

“I didn’t go to religion to make me happy. I always knew a bottle of Port would do that. If you want a religion to make you feel really comfortable, I certainly don’t recommend Christianity.”
― C.S. Lewis

“[To have Faith in Christ] means, of course, trying to do all that He says. There would be no sense in saying you trusted a person if you would not take his advice. Thus if you have really handed yourself over to Him, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already. Not hoping to get to Heaven as a reward for your actions, but inevitably wanting to act in a certain way because a first faint gleam of Heaven is already inside you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Give me one source where carbon dating was used ON THE FOSSILS OF DINOSAURS to determine it's age. Fossils are rocks... which are presumably over 60 million years old and carbon dating is useless. They arrive at the age of dinosaur bones by Uranium-235 dating the rocks below and the rocks above that "sandwich" the remains. The problem with this is that not all remains are sandwiched like this so that method can't possibly be used on all the fossils found, especially the ones found prior to the knowledge we have today.

I did, read through all of the abstracts. They're only a paragraph long... can't be bothered or don't want to see anything other than what you've decided *a priori*?

Why don't you show me something for a change -- Like a scholarly source that says what you're saying about the impossibility of dating by that methodology or any other.

Are you proposing that OLDER rocks and sediment that CAN be dated someone came to magically encase bones which didn't exist at that time?

[KanadaHye]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Did you do an archeology minor when you were studying engineering? I don't think you met those learning objectives...
The decay of carbon (which is the most abundant element -pretty much in everything) is very well understood and predicted and therefore it is the carbon that is dated to determine the age. Furthermore, there have indeed been fossils which have been discovered that not only contain organic matter (which means what? leaves contain organic matter too), but SOFT TISSUE.

Give me one source where carbon dating was used ON THE FOSSILS OF DINOSAURS to determine it's age. Fossils are rocks... which are presumably over 60 million years old and carbon dating is useless. They arrive at the age of dinosaur bones by Uranium-235 dating the rocks below and the rocks above that "sandwich" the remains. The problem with this is that not all remains are sandwiched like this so that method can't possibly be used on all the fossils found, especially the ones found prior to the knowledge we have today.