How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Free will cannot exist in any religion. People who are born into a society that preaches a religion or religions are taught to follow this/these religiion/religions from the getgo and they never see a unbiased argument for or against religion. The free will you speak of in chrystianity is an illusion much like democracy is an illusion in USA.

No you still have free will. Just because at your youth you might be taught about your religion doesn't take your free will away. You can still choose later on not to believe or do what you want.

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

So god gave us free will, but we are not permitted to believe anything we want. You must choose Jesus or eternal damnation. God is supposed to know our thoughts, have created us to THINK, but we're not supposed to think. We're supposed to follow the doctrine without questioning it. God is supposed to love us and have given us free will, but will throw us in hell to burn for eternity if we exercise that free will and choose a different religion or no religion? Yet, the bible says our names are written in the book of life before birth. This means that before our birth, god knows if we will be going to hell... Where's the choice? He lets people be born and live only to later send them to hell after giving them some illusion of free will?

You are not supposed to do anything. You can do what you want. The choice is yours and you deal with the consequences of your choice. You always have the chance of course for salvation, to repent your sins and wrong-doings, to ask for forgiveness, to better you life. God gives us this chance.

I recommend you read this:

God created the world because He is love. He wanted to share His love with people. Therefore He created us to be holy, as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16). God never intended for people to sin. The fact that man was disobedient and sinned against God is a distortion of the original plan. The original aim was for man to have a relationship with the Creator. Now, we know that God is love and that He is righteous and that all other virtues are combined in His being. Therefore His plan to create the world was pure as well. He loves the beings He created. If He had decided that everything should happen according to his will, the fulfilment of His plan for a world full of love and peace would remain unchanged even today. Since He respects the will of people, sin could come into the world through their decision.The teaching of predestination implies, in fact, that God planned in advance for men to sin and wants the majority of people to go to hell. This would make God the author of sin. Before they are even born it has already been decided that the majority of people will never have the chance to be saved (according to Calvin).

Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord GOD, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? […] Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord GOD; so turn, and live. (Ezekiel 18:23,31-32, ESV)

In the Bible people are very often called to “Repent!” This presupposes that it is possible to respond to this call! When Jesus calls: “Repent!” he does not order, but he encourages, asks, urges, implores. It is not a humiliation for the Almighty God to ask us, because he is perfectly humble: “We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.” (2 Corinthians 5:20, ESV).

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Free will cannot exist in any religion. People who are born into a society that preaches a religion or religions are taught to follow this/these religiion/religions from the getgo and they never see a unbiased argument for or against religion. The free will you speak of in chrystianity is an illusion much like democracy is an illusion in USA.

We have free will. Christianity (unlike the other main religions) is generous in the free will it gives us. It is with that free will you should strive to live by the principles that Jesus professes. When you do bad things and use Christianity to justify that's your problem, because the essence of Jesus's message is not hate or violence, but love, charity and forgiveness.

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

We have free will. Christianity (unlike the other main religions) is generous in the free will it gives us. It is with that free will you should strive to live by the principles that Jesus professes. When you do bad things and use Christianity to justify that's your problem, because the essence of Jesus's message is not hate or violence, but love, charity and forgiveness.

That sounds great, but unfortunately, it's a fairy tale. There's no hate or violence? What Bible are you reading? And besides, assuming even that Jesus actually existed, nothing was written within his lifetime about him. The first mentions are some 60 years later. Further, even the oldest existing copies of the bible are just that copies and each one is different. From differences in the copies that exist, we *know* its contents have been influenced, changed, etc. How can we consider it to be authoritative?

So god gave us free will, but we are not permitted to believe anything we want. You must choose Jesus or eternal damnation. God is supposed to know our thoughts, have created us to THINK, but we're not supposed to think. We're supposed to follow the doctrine without questioning it. God is supposed to love us and have given us free will, but will throw us in hell to burn for eternity if we exercise that free will and choose a different religion or no religion? Yet, the bible says our names are written in the book of life before birth. This means that before our birth, god knows if we will be going to hell... Where's the choice? He lets people be born and live only to later send them to hell after giving them some illusion of free will?

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Yes Mos we know that chrystianity cannot be blamed for anything bad that was done because of it nor by it directly since everyone knows -the devile did those bad things. How long can humanity buy this good cop/bad cop bs for? One of the biggest failings of the humanity is the inability to heed the lessons of the past and not to repeat the same mistakes in the future. Be it religion, racism, sexism..people learn right from wrong the hard way but then they forget and have to learn it all over again the hard way.

We have free will. Christianity (unlike the other main religions) is generous in the free will it gives us. It is with that free will you should strive to live by the principles that Jesus professes. When you do bad things and use Christianity to justify that's your problem, because the essence of Jesus's message is not hate or violence, but love, charity and forgiveness.

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Yes Mos we know that chrystianity cannot be blamed for anything bad that was done because of it nor by it directly since everyone knows -the devile did those bad things. How long can humanity buy this good cop/bad cop bs for? One of the biggest failings of the humanity is the inability to heed the lessons of the past and not to repeat the same mistakes in the future. Be it religion, racism, sexism..people learn right from wrong the hard way but then they forget and have to learn it all over again the hard way.

[Mos]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

I would say look at the history of Christianity in the West to see why there is so much hostility against Christianity. I think the people in the West got tired of the religious wars, prosecution etc.
Family values for the most part in the West haven't seen that much of a change except people have gotten the freedom to chose what they think is the best for them. The value is still there the only difference is that people now have the choice what they want and can do with their life.

No family values has definitely been hit and this has been happening with increasing secularism and increasing liberalism. In Russia, for instance, couples have numerous "partners" and often times just marry in their 30s and buy a dog, and that's it.

when Europe was really Christian, national values did not exist I would advise you to go and read some more about how Westerners saw their countries. I would say that the opposite has happened with the withdrawl of Christianity people needed to find something else to identify themselves with, and that was the nation. Look at the French revolution for example.
modesty, and much more,
Christianity is ùulticultural at its core. Go and look at its begins and when Christianity we know as today was formed then you will see how multicultural it really is. I find it funny to see Armenians rage against multiculturalism, because Armenians have always lived in multicultural societies. Or is it the new cool thing to do on the internet?
It's the xxxs again?

Well in our case, religion and national identity go together. One doesn't exclude the other. Our religion is part of our national identity and it has no doubt been crucial in shaping and preserving it. Multiculturalism is dangerous to our nation because with fragile demographics, we need to focus on strengthening our identity and culture not giving way to foreign cultures that would change our society into something else.

J3ws are indeed pushing multiculturalism in Europe: http://www.europeanxxxishfund.org/in...vember_6_2008/

Since the first time these words were used droit des hommes was by a secularist and was adopted by the French revolutianaries I would say a society better than the one today. Monotheistic religions have been used to justify the most horrendous crimes ever committed. How many genocides have been committed in the name of Abrahams god?

More people have died as a result of Communism, Nazism, and such non-religious/secular ideologies than by Christianity. As I said before though, "In the end, you can't use the failures of some churches throughout history to invalidate the Christian faith. "

Too bad that our system of values today are not based on the bible but on the teachings of great men during the enlightenment. I would say look at the Middle Ages if you want to see how a society looks like with values based on Christianity.

Our system of values are greatly influenced by the fundamental teachings of Christianity. The "great men of the enlightenment" didn't invent things out of the air, they are also influenced by this system in one way or another. And I repeat once again, you can't use the failures of the Catholic Church for example during some period of time to invalidate the Christian faith. It doesn't work that way.

Too bad Christians today and in the past didn't follow jesus' teaching. However they did use god to justify slavery, murder, rape, war, plunder throughout history. I guess that is because Christianity was never created by Jesus but by Paul and the other Church fathers and is based on the morality of their time.

Tell me how Jesus's teachings specifically justify those things? Jesus doesn't talk about murdering your enemy, but loving him. He talks about the importance of helping the poor not plundering them. And so forth.

So did Islam, Zoroastrianism and our own pagan religion. I dare you to look to old pictures from the Caucasus and the Ottoman empire and try to find a difference between an Armenian, Turk, Kurd, Persian etc. The Armenian identity we have today is totally different from the one 100 years ago. Under communism it has changed into something that someone living 100 years ago would never recognise. I would even say that secularism had more influence on the modern Armenian identity than did Christianity. If we would do a survey in Armenia today you would find a very small number of believers and the majority are only Christian in name, because it is a part of their culture.

Identity changes over time, but core elements stay the same. We still live in a conservative, christian society with culture/values that we have passed down from our nation down the history. Christianity still plays a big role in Armenian society, and the Armenian Church is often the center of Armenian communities. A lot of people, religious or not religious, still have respect for the church and the role that our religion has played in our identity. The Armenian Church is at the cornerstone of our nation and identity.

[Siggie]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

Nazism is over but I see there are still fans.

What part of what I said was untrue? You just want to compare me to a Nazi without actually addressing any of the content of my posts? I don't think so. Who are you? A Fox News commentator?
Were there not atrocities committed in the name of the OT God and Christ? Are some of the teachings in the bible not immoral? Affirmative in both cases; what I said is true.

The NT teaches that we are inherently evil in nature and accepting Christ is the path to salvation and everything else can be forgiven. Is this right? Babies are evil? Should any act be forgiven if the the person "accepts Christ"? Shouldn't deeds and acts be more important than choosing to believe in that god? A child molester or murderer and lifetime criminal can repent on their deathbed, accept Christ, pray for forgiveness, and be absolved of his sins and go to heaven, but an indigenous tribesman who has never heard of Christ or a J3wish philanthropist would go to hell?

It gives Heaven and Hell to instill fear and compel obedience. How is a value system based on threats and fear good?

The bible teaches that our paths are predetermined and our success and failures are part of God's plan thereby sending the message that we are not responsible for ourselves. What about self-determination and personal responsibility?

It teaches blind obedience. Look at the Abraham and Issac story! It teaches BLIND obedience of authority! What if Abraham had refused to obey an unjust God? Had stood up to God, sacrificed himself to do what is right, and protected the innocent? Isn't that a better message?

It rejects inquiry and scientific findings if they conflict with doctrine. Religion has stifled scientific progress. Despite overwhelming evidence that abstinence only education is not working in Africa to slow or halt the spread of AIDS, because of Christian doctrine, we continue with abstinence only programs to the detriment of those people. It has interfered with the very promising stem cell research which would do far faaaaaaaaaaaaar more to alleviate suffering than any Christian charity has ever done. While Mother Theresa watched the diseased suffer and felt that that misery and suffering was good for driving them closer to god, the discoveries from these lines of research could actually provide a cure.

And let's look at the god portrayed in the bible... He does show some very interesting human traits that suggest that it was entirely conceived by and written by man.

Desire. Jealousy. Anger. Violence. Regret. Vengeance. Deceit. Dishonesty/Breaking promises. Unjust; dealing out the maximum punishment. Insecurity - always needs to be worshiped and feared. Favoritism. Sexism. Being bigoted. Indifferent to suffering. Being persuaded to change his mind. Boastful and bragging about how enemies will be treated. Being destructive and destroying his own creations. Obsession with sex and sexuality. Irrational and has mood swings. Desires to dominate and be obeyed. Cruelty towards animals.

This is the ideal model for morality?! These are desirable traits? Does this sound like a good, benevolent, merciful god or an insane and capricious tyrant?


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Also, you didn't reply to my request that you provide some evidence to support what you're saying or explain how bones from creatures that didn't yet exist came to make impressions in rock or sediment.

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/19867-How-Much-of-the-Bible-Must-Be-Historical-to-Believe?p=337631&viewfull=1#post337631

[Haykakan]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

O KanadaHye so righteos you be. O KanadaHye we stand in awe of thee.
Hey lets makea new anthem lol.
But seriously for every good thing you can say about religioun there ten more bad things you cant ignore. Whether it is genocidal wars based on religious beliefs or simply a alter boy giving a bj on a friday afternoon- religion inevitably screws everyone involved.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: How Much of the Bible Must Be Historical to Believe?

I think they were Luciferians so were the French revolutionaries, Bolshevik revolutionaries, young Turk revolutionaries and Syrian/Libyan revolutionaries. Lucifer is their God That is why they say allah-ou-akbar when they blowup a mosque or a church or when killing innocent people.

Well for every normal Christian you get ten that are bat xxxx crazy!

Well not exactly. He's most likely referring to the people who have J3wish heritage, claim to be atheists, denouce Christianity, make fun of the bible yet secretly follow a calendar that states it's the year 5773.

Then it shouldn't be too hard for you to provide me with some prove about all of this? A name of list and then some proof that those people are doing what you are accusing them of doing.

Well that has a lot to do with Communists via USSR forcing atheism onto the surrounding population. Stalin personally took Armenians as well as other ethnic groups as pet projects to repress and purge Christianity out of the minds of citizens just to ease the imposition of their authoritarian state and its ideals. Funny thing about Christianity.... when people are given the freedom of choice, they choose to put trust in their faith.

In my city even during the harshest days of Stalin a church was still operating, and even today most people are Christian only in name and love making fun of those people that truly believe. It has less to do with the fact that atheism was forced upon them (which I am 100% against as I am against having any other religion being forced upon people) but more to do with the fact that the church is only there as a cultural thing, like in most European countries today. It has turned into a relic from the past that needs to be maintained for nostalgic values.

How do you come to the conclusion that when people can choose that they choose to believe? Reality shows a very different picture; look at Western Europe where people have the choice and most are starting to chose not to believe in god and all the superstition that it is surrounded with.

Western Armenians on the other hand were free to attend church, practice their culture albeit while absorbing surrounding cultures. Church is part of the community and plays a large role in maintaining the Armenian identity (even if it's primarily due to mingling and gossip)

I agree with you on the fact that Church by most people is being used as a form to get back in touch with the community, especially outside of Armenia.

And the decline of Christianity made Nazism more likely, as social Darwinist ideas began to dominate conservative thought, especially in Germany.

Can you provide some evidence for this, because the only thing that made the rise of Nazism possible was the crash of the German economy and the hyper inflation that followed. Also the same with raise with the regime in Iran, the French revolution etc. It had nothing to do with anything religious or social the only cause of those events is the crash of an economy and how the government handled it.