Armenian lesbians/gays

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

@ArmSurvival. First of all, I think I'm considerably older than you, and second, I am a practicing clinical psychologist. So, even if I haven't seen things or experienced things first hand, I have talked with enough people and worked with enough people to know what the problems are and what potential solutions are.

You can't simply reduce it to "a nice guy who gets screwed by party girls". I know just as many women who have been "forced into celibacy" because of a lack of decent men. In fact, it is kind of surprising to me to hear you say that women have all the control. That just simply is not true.

I was raised in the US. My parents were profoundly restrictive of me until I left for college. And I arrived at college with hardly any experience in the realm of dating or even just friendship with men. And it was as if I was thrown to the wolves. There I was. Young, attractive, intelligent, and absolutely clueless as to how to interpret others' intentions. Of course I fell in with some "bad boys", but mostly I blame my own naivety for that. And for that, I blame my parents who didn't give me adequate preparation for some of the most important things in life. I also didn't have siblings, so no role models. I had to pretty much figure it out on my own. And I did. But it took a long time, and lots of bad choices.

The worst thing parents can do to their children is to shelter them too much and then send them out into the world. The second piece, the going out into the world, is inevitable nowadays. But the first part, the adequate preparation for social and relational things, is part of a parent's job, unless they are living in a tight traditional environment where people have no choice but to fall into step with everyone else. But if you are raising your children in the US and expect them to make lives for themselves in the US, then you have to prepare them for that.

I think Armenian parents need to be way more open with their children than they have been, with boys as well as with girls. I know many guys who are under the impression that earning enough money for luxuries is adequate for securing a satisfying relationship with a woman. And when this doesn't come to pass, they are angry at the women rather than at their own parents who failed to prepare them for life in the real world. Consequently, Armenian mothers give their daughters mixed messages all the time. On the one hand, they tell them that it's important to be independent and get an education, and then turn around and tell them that it's important to marry a man with a lucrative job. So, women go to school and acquire higher levels of education. On the other hand, they are looking to "marry well". But then, they realize that the amount of material comfort that might have satisfied their mothers isn't going to satisfy them. In fact, no amount of material wealth can be satisfactory, but they don't seem to ever come to that conclusion. So, they go looking for more, bigger, better, brighter, shinier, newer, faster. None of it keeps its meaning. And it's a shame because at the same time, the men are being taught that if they can provide these material things to their women, they can be assured of a happy life, a happy marriage, and sex on a regular basis. But this doesn't work out because the women are never impressed, never satisfied. And, the really horrible thing that happens among Armenian women is the competition they are in with each other. Siranoush has a new Mercedes. Maralig wants one. Hagop took Mariam to Cancun for her birthday. Nazeli is upset and won't have sex with Garo because he just started a new business and doesn't have the money just now for a vacation. But none of it is meaningful because the foundation is wrong.

I put the blame on the parents who just haven't taken the time to think and realize that those things that meant something in their lives, those things that they aspired to in the cultures they grew up in, don't hold the same meaning. And so entire generations of Armenians are growing up without a real grounding on what the "good life" is, because they have just accepted their parents' definition of it without questioning it or thinking about what their own meaning would be.

Maybe it's going to take another generation or two. But the problem is systemic and everybody plays a part in it. And when people like me come in and say, hold on, look at the part you play in the crisis and then look at other people's contributions, I end up being vilified. I know what the crisis is. I understand it from a personal level, and intellectual level, a cultural level, and a professional level. And I know that the solutions are not going to come easily and without every single individual doing their own self-examination.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

While she was busy with her sexual escapades, the nice guy was probably depressed for not being able to find anyone even though he was not a loser in other aspects of his life. After party girl reaches her 30s and begins to lose her physical prowess, she tries to get insurance by going after the nice guy, the same type of guy she rejected for years. He will be desperate from lack of real options and will not see her for the self-serving person that she is. He will really believe she loves him and will actually view her as a great prospect, because its an upgrade from being lonely- A loneliness that was caused by her type of behavior in the first place.

The loneliness is actually caused by society making individuals feel like they are less of a person because they are single. Women (esp. the feminist types) usually try to make guys feel like less of a man because they don't "have a woman". However, it's ok for a woman to be independent, especially when her independence comes from receiving payments from some guy she screwed over.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

You know, maybe I'm in a bit of a privileged position because the women I know are very decent women who've been hurt by guys who are buffoons.

I’m willing to bet your friends have been asked out by lots of ‘nice’ guys and turned them down for guys they thought had a lot more experience with women, and they paid the price for it in the end. That’s usually how that goes. Unless your friends are dimwits, they can generally tell which guys are the responsible types and which ones are smooth operators. You play with fire, you’re gonna get burned.

Regarding my friend who decided to have a baby, I think this will help clarify. She was approaching 40 and after a lot of thinking and deliberating, decided she wanted to have a baby. Then she met and started dating a guy. The relationship was going well, but she told him, "Listen I want to have a baby, and before I met you, I went through all the medical clearances to get IVF via sperm donation. I don't want you to be pressured into staying in this relationship if it isn't what you want. If you want to still be together, realize that having a child is my priority right now. I don't expect you to be part of it in any way." So, the guy said, "Well, why go through IVF? I'd be happy to be your donor." And she got pregnant. But the original conditions held. She wasn't ready to marry him because the relationship was new. She didn't want to obligate him beyond his volunteering to father a baby. She was clear that she expected no financial support from him whatsoever, and that he was free to walk away whenever he needed to. The baby carries her last name. As it turns out, their relationship is continuing to evolve, and it may very well be that they will marry some day. But if they do, it will be for the right reasons, and her biological clock will have had nothing to do with it.

No matter how good the guy’s intentions are, and no matter how genuine your friend is about the situation, your story only shows the guy is a reckless person. Your friend can take him to the cleaners at any moment to collect child support, she can even wait a few years and collect every penny of child support retroactively, which will greatly reduce his standard of living. I don’t care whether your friend actually collects the money or not - For a man to take that risk, based on nothing more than a verbal agreement with someone who he just started a new relationship with, is sheer stupidity on his part. You were right about your friends dating buffoons.

If people aren't finding appropriate partners in life, there are many different reasons for it. I know that lots of women are misguided in their approach, as are many men.

True, but like anything else, we can narrow the reasons down to a few general trends. The difference is that some men’s misguided approach doesn’t leave tons of women lonely. Since women hold all the power of choice, when you have lots of women with a misguided approach, it mostly hurts the responsible, decent type of guy who is trying to play by the rules. There are a high proportion of girls who prefer to date a guy who treats them like crap, mainly because the girl gets sexually turned on, and good sex takes priority over serious relationships for these girls. That’s why nice guys usually get zero chances with females during the prime of their lives (age 18-30), because they are negatively stereotyped by this large group of women as being boring. When these nice guys reach their 30s they usually have to settle for some girl who spent the prime years of her life taking pipe and sucking cum out of 100 different bad boys. While she was busy with her sexual escapades, the nice guy was probably depressed for not being able to find anyone even though he was not a loser in other aspects of his life. After party girl reaches her 30s and begins to lose her physical prowess, she tries to get insurance by going after the nice guy, the same type of guy she rejected for years. He will be desperate from lack of real options and will not see her for the self-serving person that she is. He will really believe she loves him and will actually view her as a great prospect, because its an upgrade from being lonely- A loneliness that was caused by her type of behavior in the first place. Its not entirely womens' fault, because many men don't react properly, but this dynamic is definitely initiated by women.

I’m not sure you ever understood this whole dynamic seeing as you might not have been raised in the US, and/or were never faced with lack of romantic options, and never experienced forced celibacy that many guys face. However, the frivolous behavior of many women affects millions of decent guys. I know this dynamic because I have been the nice guy, then realized the situation and developed myself into the disinterested guy who doesn’t give a crap about the girl, and the results were like night and day. I’ve also heard the experiences of hundreds of guys and believe me, it’s the same old story. What I’m telling you is old news for guys who have seen it from both sides of the fence.

[KanadaHye]

Re: An (Armenian) Psychiatrist Psychologist Writes

This is so funny I have to post it.



PSYCHOLOGIST: "THE ISSUE OF HOMOSEXUALISM IS ARTIFICIALLY MADE WORSE IN ARMENIA FROM OUTSIDE"

http://www.yerkirmedia.am/?act=news&lan=en&id=7300

17:16 . 23/05


Should we be tolerant or not? This is the question mostly voiced
on these days. Everyone, including homosexuals, has an inviolable
right of private life. But everyone has also the right to be free
from obvious propaganda of homosexualism.

I agree with the above statement

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

I have known many western families that are cohesive. But, having studied family systems psychology, what is clear to me is that any family has to work to strike a balance between cohesiveness and individuation. Too much of either and someone is going to become symptomatic.

I know many people who would do better to raise dogs than to parent children, so maybe settling down with a partner and a pet isn't such a terrible thing.

It's a shame that people will be better at raising dogs than children. It means that culture of raising kids successfully is eroding. People somehow become scared of raising kids and in my view some of those people are just to concerned with themselves and their own joys than bring to this world some nice children. They rather have a "good time" than dedicate time to their loved ones. In my view, there's something wrong with that mindset. In Western culture, family is becoming more and more of a negative thing, in a way people start looking down at such family people and instead glorify the people that just spend time on themselves.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Are you still searching for yourself?

haha I still don't understand what that means.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Are you still searching for yourself?

In some ways yes. In some ways no.

[bell-the-cat]

An (Armenian) Psychiatrist Psychologist Writes

This is so funny I have to post it.



PSYCHOLOGIST: "THE ISSUE OF HOMOSEXUALISM IS ARTIFICIALLY MADE WORSE IN ARMENIA FROM OUTSIDE"

http://www.yerkirmedia.am/?act=news&lan=en&id=7300

17:16 . 23/05

The noise over homosexuals that rose suddenly has lasted more than
a week. No one understood why suddenly the fire at DIY club became
number one news among the crimes and violence acts which occur every
day. Irrespective of the reasons, this was a fine advertisement
and propaganda.

The issue was discussed from moral, legal and medical points of view.

Specialists say homosexualism is an illness, but very often it
emerges artificially-not biological but external factors contribute
to spreading homosexulism.

"It is one of the forms of the world's collapse. Birth rate decreases
drastically and a fight is taking place from top against overpopulation
of the planet. But for such a small country like Armenia, this is an
issue of security. If 10, 000 youth become homosexuals and even if
they adopt children let alone the fact they don't have children, it is
most likely their child will also become a homosexual," psychologist
Samvel Khudoyan said.

Science speaks about homosexualism with "ifs". They say it is an
incurable illness, though homosexuals don't turn to doctors to be
cured. Psychiatrist Samvel Sukiasyan is sure that in Armenia this
issue is artificially made worse from outside.

"If they speak about pedophilia, the object of sexual desires in
this case is a child. All condemn this, but when the object is a
representative of the same sex, the world says they are different,
it is their right. A question rises: why does this happen?" the
psychologist says.

Two towns, Sodom and Gomorrah were ruined because of such a moral
decline, priest Ter Chmavon Ghevondyan reminds. He says the church
is ready to help anyone who faces such a problem, but so far no one
has asked for help.

"A healthy family is the means for preventing this. The greater
the presence of the church and God in people's lives, the less such
kinds of dirt and their development," Surb Hovhannes Church priest
Ter Shmavon Ghevondyan said.

Should we be tolerant or not? This is the question mostly voiced
on these days. Everyone, including homosexuals, has an inviolable
right of private life. But everyone has also the right to be free
from obvious propaganda of homosexualism.

[ADandelion]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

KanadaHye, if you and I have the same vision of what a relationship is, then let me assure you that there are plenty of other people in the West that share our frustration with what we perceive to be a shallow fulfillment of something beautiful and sacred.

To give the act of involvement in a relationship the honor it deserves, however, doesn't mean one has to go into it with a limited set of criteria or endgoal in mind. An amazing relationship might not end in a marriage, and if you feel you have gained something precious from it, good memories, a deep bond with a person, wisdom, whatever it may be, then that relationship was worthwhile.

I also think I understand now why you embrace purity, morals, and the family unit so much. They act as the most seemingly consistent model for the like of life that you seek, the kinds of emotions you wish to experience. But I've seen that kind of devotion and happiness occur the most when a couple is open with one another with what they want out of life, and find they're in a kind of agreement between souls that makes the other person the ideal partner to go through that adventure with.

For you, the goal in life with a woman is devotion, commitment, putting those you love before yourself, and that is entirely admirable. The person who you're looking for, who will make you happy, will embody those qualities, but perhaps not in the way you expect. That might mean that she is foreign, that she loves living in an outside culture, that she has had sex before out of devotion to someone, that she is outspoken for the causes she believes in and fights for, or it might mean none of those things. But that character will be there, reflected in her actions in some way.

I understand your desire to find a life partner and to have children by them perfectly well. You haven't been able to find that amongst Armenian women that you met, because they don't value what you do and what you perceive that I do. But there are plenty of women who do. My advice would be to expand your boundaries, and to not look at what these women are doing, but WHY. Because what might seem like a disgraceful upheaval of morals to you might be a very courageous and thoughtful act on her part in an attempt to better her society, and what might seem like an ideal fulfillment of Armenian expectations are the passive meanderings of a woman who was too cowardly to tell anyone what she really wants out of life.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

I still don't know what a true Armenian is supposed to be or look like.

Are you still searching for yourself?