Armenian lesbians/gays

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

You're wrong. You represent the school you went to (I'm a Michigan Wolverine!!). You represent the state that you pay taxes for. You represent the company that you work for/owns you. Your represent the brand labels you wear and/or the type of car you drive. It's just that unlike a family or community, you're being used by the interests of people who don't care about you. In the end, you're just a used up commodity or resource.

And what makes you think that everyone in your family group cares about you? How do you know they're not in it for their own interests? It's the difference between needing and wanting. In societies where resources are limited (or perceived to be so) family groups need to operate cohesively. But when resources aren't limited, individuals come together out of mutual attraction, things they have in common, pleasant company. You don't choose your family.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Things are constantly changing. Unless a person is committed to counter those changes, they aren't cut out for marriage or life. They might as well stay a child their whole life which is what most westernern people are well into their 40's.

How can people counter change when change is the only thing that is constant? It seems to me that you really want the world to be your way, and if it isn't the way you want it to be, you are going to have a tantrum.

I disagree with the idea that western people stay children into their 40's. Quite the opposite. It's a particular talent of some Armenian mothers to make sure their sons never separate and never grow up and have their own ideas.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Things can change after marriage, too! Better the wrong match splits before the knot is tied, don't you think?

Things are constantly changing. Unless a person is committed to counter those changes, they aren't cut out for marriage or life. They might as well stay a child their whole life which is what most westernern people are well into their 40's. They can't control their desires or urges and need to be coached by "professionals".

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

And how well is that working for you?

Pretty well. Once the opportunity arises, I'll be next in line for king.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

No she taught me how women should be around men.

And how well is that working for you?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

That's because they weren't in a real relationship with the women. If they were, probably the signs of things not working out or interests changing were there before the dropping happened, but no one bothered to take the time to face it or talk about it.

Things can change after marriage, too! Better the wrong match splits before the knot is tied, don't you think?

So, you aren't interested in mutuality. You aren't interested in seeing the other person's point of view, her hopes, dreams, fears, vulnerabilities. And yet you want that person to commit to spending her life with you? How does that make sense? And then to suggest that "those things" are somehow effeminate or emasculating! My goodness!!! Did you parents teach you anything about social discourse? Did your mom give you any advice on how to be around women?

My 8 year old daughter is probably more savvy about relationships than I was when I was 18! She already knows things like if someone doesn't say hello or want to hang out on any given day, it may just be that they need some space, and it's best to just give them that space.

No she taught me how women should be around men.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Nothing needs to change. We can pretend we're interested in those things but we don't, we're men. If a man is trying to connect with you on your level then he must have some feminine subconscious. Femininity and masculinity have a lot to do with psychology.

When I say relationship, I mean the pretend marriage game that many women want to play. We don't care to waste 2 or 3 years tied down playing games and I know many good guys (odars) that have wasted years of investment in women that dropped them as soon as something better came along or because they finished their schooling and their "interests" changed.

That's because they weren't in a real relationship with the women. If they were, probably the signs of things not working out or interests changing were there before the dropping happened, but no one bothered to take the time to face it or talk about it.

Things can change after marriage, too! Better the wrong match splits before the knot is tied, don't you think?

So, you aren't interested in mutuality. You aren't interested in seeing the other person's point of view, her hopes, dreams, fears, vulnerabilities. And yet you want that person to commit to spending her life with you? How does that make sense? And then to suggest that "those things" are somehow effeminate or emasculating! My goodness!!! Did you parents teach you anything about social discourse? Did your mom give you any advice on how to be around women?

My 8 year old daughter is probably more savvy about relationships than I was when I was 18! She already knows things like if someone doesn't say hello or want to hang out on any given day, it may just be that they need some space, and it's best to just give them that space.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

You said something important just now: "Armenian guys aren't into "relationships"." Are you saying that relationships are immature Western pass-times?

Maybe that is the mentality that needs to change. How are you understanding "relationship"? In my opinion, a relationship is a mutual connection that both parties work to maintain and grow from. It's a state of being in which each person recognizes the subjectivity of the other person and behaves in ways that he or she would hope the other person to behave.

Nothing needs to change. We can pretend we're interested in those things but we don't, we're men. If a man is trying to connect with you on your level then he must have some feminine subconscious. Femininity and masculinity have a lot to do with psychology.

When I say relationship, I mean the pretend marriage game that many women want to play. We don't care to waste 2 or 3 years tied down playing games and I know many good guys (odars) that have wasted years of investment in women that dropped them as soon as something better came along or because they finished their schooling and their "interests" changed.

I think what Armenian guys aren't into is experiencing their own vulnerability. And in an individualistic society, these vulnerabilities become more visible. You don't have your family name or reputation to speak for you. You don't have a ready-made social network where you're respected or liked because of who you are rather than how you behave. You can't rely on everyone else believing what you believe or doing what you are doing. You represent no one. No one represents you. This is an extremely liberating point of departure for any person. And it's profoundly anxious-making. If you aren't who you thought you were, or who "they" said you were, then who are you?

You're wrong. You represent the school you went to (I'm a Michigan Wolverine!!). You represent the state that you pay taxes for. You represent the company that you work for/owns you. Your represent the brand labels you wear and/or the type of car you drive. It's just that unlike a family or community, you're being used by the interests of people who don't care about you. In the end, you're just a used up commodity or resource.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

I think what Armenian guys aren't into is experiencing their own vulnerability. And in an individualistic society, these vulnerabilities become more visible. You don't have your family name or reputation to speak for you. You don't have a ready-made social network where you're respected or liked because of who you are rather than how you behave. You can't rely on everyone else believing what you believe or doing what you are doing. You represent no one. No one represents you. This is an extremely liberating point of departure for any person. And it's profoundly anxious-making. If you aren't who you thought you were, or who "they" said you were, then who are you?

I think many Armenian guys, and girls, too, are facing an existential crisis. It's the difference between being no thing and being nothing. It's more work to become someone when you don't have age-old guidelines to mark your path. But, as I have asked many times, why is my brand of Armenian identity any less valid than the one the church or the community center is trying to push on me? Finding my own sources of Armenian Identity has been difficult, but in the end it is mine and it is infinitely more interesting and enriching than any political agenda out there.

[Flamenkita]

Re: Armenian lesbians/gays

Flamenkita... how ever you want to slice it, western life isn't meant for family. I am certain I'll never experience what it will feel like to be a grandfather and I feel robbed of a life that could have been so much more fulfilling. None of it was my fault, in fact I was financially and emotionally prepared to start a family in my mid 20's. Since that didn't materialize due to the "party" and drama scene that so many Armenians girls were wrapped up in, I decided to put things on a back burner and have probably done a lot of dumb things with money and time that should have went towards a family. If you haven't noticed, most Armenian guys aren't into "relationships"... we don't believe in wasting our time with immature western pass times.

You said something important just now: "Armenian guys aren't into "relationships"." Are you saying that relationships are immature Western pass-times?

Maybe that is the mentality that needs to change. How are you understanding "relationship"? In my opinion, a relationship is a mutual connection that both parties work to maintain and grow from. It's a state of being in which each person recognizes the subjectivity of the other person and behaves in ways that he or she would hope the other person to behave.

If Armenian guys aren't into relationships, then what ARE they into?

Clearly, if you are feeling so bitter and jaded about your prospects for having a family, then that is how it will continue to be. Also, it seems to me that you were connecting with the wrong Armenian girls and perhaps rejecting the ones that might have been more interesting and stable (albeit a little less "attractive" in the standard sense).

I was never involved in the party and drama scene, and that is why I never dated any Armenian men until I met and married my husband. The Armenian guys I met seemed, on the one hand, to go to the party scenes to meet women and then judge the women they were meeting at the party scene. There's a lot of prejudice that goes on. It's like they want it both ways. They want the "party and drama" outer appearance but the "nice family girl" inner self. Well, it doesn't seem to work like that.

I also don't know why you say Western life isn't meant for family. Sure, it may be less geared toward enmeshment and perforated boundaries, but that doesn't mean one can't create the kind of family they want to have.

My feeling, in reading some of the posts by the guys here, is that they want their personal boundaries to be solid, but others' boundaries to be flexible. You don't want to change how you think and feel, but you want others to agree to your terms. Everything can't always be on your terms.