War on Iraq

[surferarmo]

They hate us because they are jealous. They want to take over and make everyone Muslim. The infidel, as they call us, is an obvious indicator of hatred. When they bombed and killed 5000 civilians in the WTC do you think I am going to sit down with them and ask why they did that? NO. They got a civilian target...knowingly.

after all that wait... all we get from you is "because they're jealous"??
lets see... so is that the reason France and Spain and Russia and Korea and Morocco and ALL those other countries hate us?
cuz they're jealous?
come on Surfer... I thought you knew better...
and yet another correction.... it wasn't "5000" civilians... in the beginning they threw in a number like 10,000 or something and after they were done looking all "feel bad for us... we lost souls"...and after they were done with all the accusations and everything... it turned out the numbers were barely 3000..
well isn't that sad...
you need to go through some history books surferboy just to compare those numbers with other so called "terrorist" act numbers...
and I don't know why you're stressing about "civilian targets..knowingly"
no one said it was unknowingly.. I mean if you were to attack your enemy... would you bomb some random desert in the coutry? lol
ya... anyway.. i would love to go on and on but I'm starving... gotta go get lunch...my stomach's saying In n Out

No jan, I would not bomb random places; I would bomb strategic military targets. That is the way it should be. Pearl harbor was does not warrant a terrorist action because a MILITARY target was bombed. No one talks about the pentagon because it was a military target. With that said, you totally misunderstood my post.

I love in n out. I havent had it for a couple months now. I will be in LA in a couple weeks, and in n out will have to close down. Thats right. I will be in LA for a couple of weeks. I bet you are all excited to see me. LOL.

[Anonymouse]

Muslims in the mid-east to hate us. That is a common fact, maybe it isnt true for all, but it is for most. I think Saddam, and Osama was making a mockery of these nations and of Arab people. I do not hate these people, nor am I racist. I just believe they hate us for reasons different than they say.

First off, there is no link between Osama and Saddam and none has ever been established which makes me question why you state it here and now as some sort of an established fact. Secondly the only reason the Muslims in the mid-east hate us is not becuase they are "jealous" which is in itself a silly answer. The conservative elements have a way of trying to make the world into a morally unambiguous conflict of good and evil. We are "good" and they are "evil" because they hate us and are jealous. No, the reason they hate us is because of our support for Israel which uses American tax dollars and weapons to kill Muslims. They hate us because we constantly intervene in the middle East bombing their lands, homes, schools and hospitals, in essence killing them.

What puzzles me is no conservatives ever ask the question of why they hate us and they never look for an answer short of "they are jealous". That is being a critical nor analytical thinker.

You never asked why we have distress with them Baron. Why do you only see it one way? You conceptualize the mid-east as the victims and the US as the intruder. You polarize it to the extremes. It doesnt work that way. They hate us because they are jealous. They want to take over and make everyone Muslim. The infidel, as they call us, is an obvious indicator of hatred. When they bombed and killed 5000 civilians in the WTC do you think I am going to sit down with them and ask why they did that? NO. They got a civilian target...knowingly. I dont stress the pentagon that much because it was a military target. Although I do care about the people in those buildings, that target being hit was more understandible. The people who endorse terrorism are sick. How can that be denied? I am serious. THey dont like us because they want something they dont have. They say we are greedy, and selfish, and they put themselves on a pedastool thinking they are the righteous country in the land. Bullxxxx. Women are beaten, people are tortured, houses burned all in the name of the Koran.

Actually the U.S. is the intruder in that region since it is meddling in their affairs, and bombing their people for the self interest of a select few and of course Israel. The survival of Israel requires that there exist no Islamic power in the region and therefore all Islamic states must be kept in check. If the U.S. is not the intruder, then I am to guess that Republican methodology portrays the U.S. as the savior?

As for the WTC, there is no evidence that Osama bin laden was behind it. You sit here and make an unsubstantiated assertion to the general Muslim population and say "they did it" and offer no evidence. Sure there were muslim names recovered after the tragedy but the media never said that half of the names mentioned were people who lived in the Middle East and why on earth were their identities being used here? You forget that it was the FBI and CIA who funded and trained these same terrorists, who were also in charge of trying to blow up the WTC in 93, and one FBI agent by the name of John Anticev comes to mind who helped give them the supplies necessary and the funding.

The people who endorse terrorism are indeed sick and you should look no further than the U.S.A. which in essence started the whole war on terrorism as the terrorists themselves are a by product of U.S. thinking and ingenuity. Put the blame where it ought to be. It's easier to believe in the George Bush explanation of "Why they hate us?" and more comforting, as they resent our "freedom" and "democracy" and the cultural failings. What this ignores is that Islam once had a golden age. The present Algebra is an invention of Islam. Our number system is from Islam. When much of the world was in the dark ages, and certainly Europe, Islam was the world power connecting distant lands through trade and knowledge. They developed trigonometry. They made more accurate maps of latitude and longitude and knew before anyone that the earth was not flat. The Persian Omar Khayyam developed a calendar so reliable that over 500 years it was off by only one day. Of course all this is ignored and never mentioned because they are "jealous" and "hate us".

Now I told you before, and only minimal observation would point this out. All we have seen are the extremeists. Where are the moderates? I have not heard anyone from the middle east say that the practices of Osama and Saddam are not mainstream Muslim faith. If you can find one printed source, then tell me what it is. It needs to clearly illustrate that the terror extremists are a minority. I dont care if 10 Muslims say they are moderate, they are the exception, the rest hate us, and want us dead. I will not another building get burned.

Again this goes back to the fundamentals which I mentioned up top. There are reasons why they hate us. Nothing is without justification or provocation. If you cannot accept this on its face value, then you are trying too hard to believe in the reasons offered by FOX news.

If there are any moderates, they are not able to speak up maybe because of fear of retribution. Just an example of the government they live in. As far as I am concerned, the majority are what we call extremeists, who hate us because they have less resources, and they use the respectful Koran to back it up. And I refuse to ask someone why they hate us and implement an approach that shows the acceptance, and makes OK the tactics of bombing buildings with innocent civilians in them.

What do you think those children felt when their moms and dads didnt come home from work that day?

What you are in essence saying is because they hate us and they are extremists we should destroy them. Nevermind that you and others who defend the American imperialistic campaign of death and destruction on innocent people without any evidence that the were involved in WTC bombings, or possessing weapons of mass destruction. By that logic other countries have a right to destroy us because we are hateful of anyone who doesnt comply or adhere to U.S. standards and we ourselves have chickenhawk extremists like Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, the latter two being Jews in key positions. Perle is also a dual citizen of Israel. Why is such a person allowed to hold office? Where do you think his ultimate loyalty lies?

Quite frankly, I am tired of the regurgiated unsubstantiated assertions used to make headway for a 'case for war'. There has been no evidence that the government can offer to the UN or the world, other than doctored papers, what makes you think you have any that justifies an illegal war, curtailing the constitution and international law? This thread should either produce more fruitful results or else it is a trip down the road of circular logic where no progress has been made.

Again let us reiterate some basic ideas. There is no evidence that Osama bin Laden was behind 9-11. There is no evidence that Iraq was behind 9-11. There is no evidence that Iraq has any weapons of mass destruction. There is no evidence that Iraq threatened the U.S. with any weapons of mass destruction. It used to be that all we heard was Osama. Now it is Iraq and Saddam and that miscellanous and mythical link has been established between Saddam and bin Laden, mind you without any evidence as usual. Unsubstantiated assertions are merely that. The onus or the burden of proof lies on those who assert the claims and 'facts', not the other way around. Those who state their case must provide evidence. That is the way it works everywhere in all legal systems. You don't have to like it, that is the way it is.

And the the liberals constantly conceptualize the rest of the world as good, and us as evil. This arguement can go both ways and would last a life time. You never got to my question stated earlier. You think it is ok for a ruler to go and kill his own people, and gain power through means of aquiring territory? You obviously dont think imperialism is ok, and you constantly criticise the US for that, yet there have been no assertions of actually taking over a territory and keeping for ourselves. That said, what do you think we should have done with Saddam? Just left another Stalin figure go about and eventually amass to something great that could get us later?

Funny I never thought of myself as a liberal. You on the other hand admitted youre a Republican. Don't put labels where there are none.

I don't conceptualize the world as good. I simply state it as it is that the U.S. has different motives than the ones presented. Since you didn't offer a rebuttal to the points raised I am to guess you agree, and the only thing I asked was for evidence. Your posts have turned into nothing but questions such as "what do you think we should have done with Saddam?" and when answered you return with more hypothetical opinions. I already answered to what I think about Saddam.

I am not saying this to try to sound condescending but youre overall defense or rather case for war is weak and rests on nothing except "Saddam was evil" which is subjective in itself. One could say the same about Bush does it make it so? You obviously wouldn't think Bush is evil, I on the other hand would. I don't see how Saddam could ever become Stalin. Saddam pales in comparison to the person we knew as Joseph Dzudhashvili. You clearly are using the same analogy the Republicans use. The more popular one is comparing Saddam to Hitler, which is fallacious. 1939 Germany was a super power, the economy the best,, the manufacturing capabilities immense, Hitler was dictator of that nation. Saddam is ruler of beaten country, no proper sanitation, schools, nor hospitals. 5000 children died there monthly due to the UN economicsanctions, the figures are probably more amplified now. Iraq was not an expansionist state, nor had the resources, money, or manpower to accomplish such a feat. It would have been geopolitical suicide. I see no valid reason to invade Saddam based on constant referneces to his 'evilness'. It seems after stripping all the status quo's reasons for war on Iraq we are left with this appeal to his evilness which is the last refuge of those who promote this war and defend it.

I don't see what point you are trying to make with this response but it certainly has no evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

[surferarmo]

Muslims in the mid-east to hate us. That is a common fact, maybe it isnt true for all, but it is for most. I think Saddam, and Osama was making a mockery of these nations and of Arab people. I do not hate these people, nor am I racist. I just believe they hate us for reasons different than they say.

First off, there is no link between Osama and Saddam and none has ever been established which makes me question why you state it here and now as some sort of an established fact. Secondly the only reason the Muslims in the mid-east hate us is not becuase they are "jealous" which is in itself a silly answer. The conservative elements have a way of trying to make the world into a morally unambiguous conflict of good and evil. We are "good" and they are "evil" because they hate us and are jealous. No, the reason they hate us is because of our support for Israel which uses American tax dollars and weapons to kill Muslims. They hate us because we constantly intervene in the middle East bombing their lands, homes, schools and hospitals, in essence killing them.

What puzzles me is no conservatives ever ask the question of why they hate us and they never look for an answer short of "they are jealous". That is being a critical nor analytical thinker.

You never asked why we have distress with them Baron. Why do you only see it one way? You conceptualize the mid-east as the victims and the US as the intruder. You polarize it to the extremes. It doesnt work that way. They hate us because they are jealous. They want to take over and make everyone Muslim. The infidel, as they call us, is an obvious indicator of hatred. When they bombed and killed 5000 civilians in the WTC do you think I am going to sit down with them and ask why they did that? NO. They got a civilian target...knowingly. I dont stress the pentagon that much because it was a military target. Although I do care about the people in those buildings, that target being hit was more understandible. The people who endorse terrorism are sick. How can that be denied? I am serious. THey dont like us because they want something they dont have. They say we are greedy, and selfish, and they put themselves on a pedastool thinking they are the righteous country in the land. Bullxxxx. Women are beaten, people are tortured, houses burned all in the name of the Koran.

Actually the U.S. is the intruder in that region since it is meddling in their affairs, and bombing their people for the self interest of a select few and of course Israel. The survival of Israel requires that there exist no Islamic power in the region and therefore all Islamic states must be kept in check. If the U.S. is not the intruder, then I am to guess that Republican methodology portrays the U.S. as the savior?

As for the WTC, there is no evidence that Osama bin laden was behind it. You sit here and make an unsubstantiated assertion to the general Muslim population and say "they did it" and offer no evidence. Sure there were muslim names recovered after the tragedy but the media never said that half of the names mentioned were people who lived in the Middle East and why on earth were their identities being used here? You forget that it was the FBI and CIA who funded and trained these same terrorists, who were also in charge of trying to blow up the WTC in 93, and one FBI agent by the name of John Anticev comes to mind who helped give them the supplies necessary and the funding.

The people who endorse terrorism are indeed sick and you should look no further than the U.S.A. which in essence started the whole war on terrorism as the terrorists themselves are a by product of U.S. thinking and ingenuity. Put the blame where it ought to be. It's easier to believe in the George Bush explanation of "Why they hate us?" and more comforting, as they resent our "freedom" and "democracy" and the cultural failings. What this ignores is that Islam once had a golden age. The present Algebra is an invention of Islam. Our number system is from Islam. When much of the world was in the dark ages, and certainly Europe, Islam was the world power connecting distant lands through trade and knowledge. They developed trigonometry. They made more accurate maps of latitude and longitude and knew before anyone that the earth was not flat. The Persian Omar Khayyam developed a calendar so reliable that over 500 years it was off by only one day. Of course all this is ignored and never mentioned because they are "jealous" and "hate us".

Now I told you before, and only minimal observation would point this out. All we have seen are the extremeists. Where are the moderates? I have not heard anyone from the middle east say that the practices of Osama and Saddam are not mainstream Muslim faith. If you can find one printed source, then tell me what it is. It needs to clearly illustrate that the terror extremists are a minority. I dont care if 10 Muslims say they are moderate, they are the exception, the rest hate us, and want us dead. I will not another building get burned.

Again this goes back to the fundamentals which I mentioned up top. There are reasons why they hate us. Nothing is without justification or provocation. If you cannot accept this on its face value, then you are trying too hard to believe in the reasons offered by FOX news.

If there are any moderates, they are not able to speak up maybe because of fear of retribution. Just an example of the government they live in. As far as I am concerned, the majority are what we call extremeists, who hate us because they have less resources, and they use the respectful Koran to back it up. And I refuse to ask someone why they hate us and implement an approach that shows the acceptance, and makes OK the tactics of bombing buildings with innocent civilians in them.

What do you think those children felt when their moms and dads didnt come home from work that day?

What you are in essence saying is because they hate us and they are extremists we should destroy them. Nevermind that you and others who defend the American imperialistic campaign of death and destruction on innocent people without any evidence that the were involved in WTC bombings, or possessing weapons of mass destruction. By that logic other countries have a right to destroy us because we are hateful of anyone who doesnt comply or adhere to U.S. standards and we ourselves have chickenhawk extremists like Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, the latter two being Jews in key positions. Perle is also a dual citizen of Israel. Why is such a person allowed to hold office? Where do you think his ultimate loyalty lies?

Quite frankly, I am tired of the regurgiated unsubstantiated assertions used to make headway for a 'case for war'. There has been no evidence that the government can offer to the UN or the world, other than doctored papers, what makes you think you have any that justifies an illegal war, curtailing the constitution and international law? This thread should either produce more fruitful results or else it is a trip down the road of circular logic where no progress has been made.

Again let us reiterate some basic ideas. There is no evidence that Osama bin Laden was behind 9-11. There is no evidence that Iraq was behind 9-11. There is no evidence that Iraq has any weapons of mass destruction. There is no evidence that Iraq threatened the U.S. with any weapons of mass destruction. It used to be that all we heard was Osama. Now it is Iraq and Saddam and that miscellanous and mythical link has been established between Saddam and bin Laden, mind you without any evidence as usual. Unsubstantiated assertions are merely that. The onus or the burden of proof lies on those who assert the claims and 'facts', not the other way around. Those who state their case must provide evidence. That is the way it works everywhere in all legal systems. You don't have to like it, that is the way it is.

And the the liberals constantly conceptualize the rest of the world as good, and us as evil. This arguement can go both ways and would last a life time. You never got to my question stated earlier. You think it is ok for a ruler to go and kill his own people, and gain power through means of aquiring territory? You obviously dont think imperialism is ok, and you constantly criticise the US for that, yet there have been no assertions of actually taking over a territory and keeping for ourselves. That said, what do you think we should have done with Saddam? Just left another Stalin figure go about and eventually amass to something great that could get us later?

Funny I never thought of myself as a liberal. You on the other hand admitted youre a Republican. Don't put labels where there are none.

I don't conceptualize the world as good. I simply state it as it is that the U.S. has different motives than the ones presented. Since you didn't offer a rebuttal to the points raised I am to guess you agree, and the only thing I asked was for evidence. Your posts have turned into nothing but questions such as "what do you think we should have done with Saddam?" and when answered you return with more hypothetical opinions. I already answered to what I think about Saddam.

I am not saying this to try to sound condescending but youre overall defense or rather case for war is weak and rests on nothing except "Saddam was evil" which is subjective in itself. One could say the same about Bush does it make it so? You obviously wouldn't think Bush is evil, I on the other hand would. I don't see how Saddam could ever become Stalin. Saddam pales in comparison to the person we knew as Joseph Dzudhashvili. You clearly are using the same analogy the Republicans use. The more popular one is comparing Saddam to Hitler, which is fallacious. 1939 Germany was a super power, the economy the best,, the manufacturing capabilities immense, Hitler was dictator of that nation. Saddam is ruler of beaten country, no proper sanitation, schools, nor hospitals. 5000 children died there monthly due to the UN economicsanctions, the figures are probably more amplified now. Iraq was not an expansionist state, nor had the resources, money, or manpower to accomplish such a feat. It would have been geopolitical suicide. I see no valid reason to invade Saddam based on constant referneces to his 'evilness'. It seems after stripping all the status quo's reasons for war on Iraq we are left with this appeal to his evilness which is the last refuge of those who promote this war and defend it.

I don't see what point you are trying to make with this response but it certainly has no evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

You admitted that you were "inclined to call yourself a civil liberatarian." I admit I am a Republican, but that is not what shaped me. I thought the way I do after taking politics classes, and researching various points of view in American politics, communism, socialism, capatilism, dictatorships, monarchies and you name, I have checked it out. I found that my views closely reflected that of the Republican parties, therefore I identified myself with them.

You should read my posts more closely. I did address your point about proof dealing with WMD's. They were used before. They exist.

Sure, Bush is evil to some people, I am evil to some people, and so are you. You might think me evil, and you dont even know me. I think you are somewhat evil, for you care nothing about the Iraqi people, or at least that is what I am getting from your posts. Our mothers think we are angels, my friends praise me for being open minded. You see, Anon I research differing opinions, and I go with the one I find most suiting for our needs, for American needs. I always keep an open mind. It seems as if you think the opposite only because I disagree with you. That is ridiculous. This arguement has turned into opinion, and could go on forever.

[Dorobo]

ugh, wow. You guys enjoy fighting over something that has already ended? I have not read any of these posts. People need to realize that this war should have ended 10 years ago with the gulf war. We should have perused Sadam into his damn sand castle and kicked his ass back then. We have just wasted ten years by letting that stupid xxxxer keep his regime.

OH and i'd like to address all of the peace activists. Shut the xxxx up. I can honestly say that your "no war" bull crap will get the US nowhere in global politics. You want people to listen to you? Free oppressed nations? Make third world countries a better place? Well going on a hunger strike or walking out of your damn classrooms isn't going to accomplish jack xxxx. Only one thing is respected in the modern world. Action. We can stick out are filthy white American middle class tongues out at Sadam all we want, but the only thing that could have changed the thousands of deaths taking place weekly in Iraq would be to go in there and stop it.

Allow me to predict the following posts. Dorobo is a war monger. Dorobo supports president Bush (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Dorobo thinks that America should bully other countries around.

Answer to this? Give me a xxxxing break. Don’t categorize me into any of your damn political view stereotypes. I wish war wasn't part of our daily society. But to believe otherwise is simply moronic. I cannot even begin to comprehend how that stupid xxxxer Bush got his Hick ass into the oval office. That happening shows the flaws and evils of politics. And I wish we didn't have to go and act as the international police man, but if we have to go and act as someone’s hard hitting ass kicking conscience, then so be it.

We all just repeat what others tell us to believe. No matter what facts we think that we are making an educated decision on, the are in all actuality tainted and dripping with bias.

[surferarmo]

ugh, wow. You guys enjoy fighting over something that has already ended? I have not read any of these posts. People need to realize that this war should have ended 10 years ago with the gulf war. We should have perused Sadam into his damn sand castle and kicked his ass back then. We have just wasted ten years by letting that stupid xxxxer keep his regime.

OH and i'd like to address all of the peace activists. Shut the xxxx up. I can honestly say that your "no war" bull crap will get the US nowhere in global politics. You want people to listen to you? Free oppressed nations? Make third world countries a better place? Well going on a hunger strike or walking out of your damn classrooms isn't going to accomplish jack xxxx. Only one thing is respected in the modern world. Action. We can stick out are filthy white American middle class tongues out at Sadam all we want, but the only thing that could have changed the thousands of deaths taking place weekly in Iraq would be to go in there and stop it.

Allow me to predict the following posts. Dorobo is a war monger. Dorobo supports president Bush (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Dorobo thinks that America should bully other countries around.

Answer to this? Give me a xxxxing break. Don’t categorize me into any of your damn political view stereotypes. I wish war wasn't part of our daily society. But to believe otherwise is simply moronic. I cannot even begin to comprehend how that stupid xxxxer Bush got his Hick ass into the oval office. That happening shows the flaws and evils of politics. And I wish we didn't have to go and act as the international police man, but if we have to go and act as someone’s hard hitting ass kicking conscience, then so be it.

We all just repeat what others tell us to believe. No matter what facts we think that we are making an educated decision on, the are in all actuality tainted and dripping with bias.

THANK YOU

[jahannam]

ugh, wow. You guys enjoy fighting over something that has already ended? I have not read any of these posts. People need to realize that this war should have ended 10 years ago with the gulf war. We should have perused Sadam into his damn sand castle and kicked his ass back then. We have just wasted ten years by letting that stupid xxxxer keep his regime.

OH and i'd like to address all of the peace activists. Shut the xxxx up. I can honestly say that your "no war" bull crap will get the US nowhere in global politics. You want people to listen to you? Free oppressed nations? Make third world countries a better place? Well going on a hunger strike or walking out of your damn classrooms isn't going to accomplish jack xxxx. Only one thing is respected in the modern world. Action. We can stick out are filthy white American middle class tongues out at Sadam all we want, but the only thing that could have changed the thousands of deaths taking place weekly in Iraq would be to go in there and stop it.

Allow me to predict the following posts. Dorobo is a war monger. Dorobo supports president Bush (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Dorobo thinks that America should bully other countries around.

Answer to this? Give me a xxxxing break. Don’t categorize me into any of your damn political view stereotypes. I wish war wasn't part of our daily society. But to believe otherwise is simply moronic. I cannot even begin to comprehend how that stupid xxxxer Bush got his Hick ass into the oval office. That happening shows the flaws and evils of politics. And I wish we didn't have to go and act as the international police man, but if we have to go and act as someone’s hard hitting ass kicking conscience, then so be it.

We all just repeat what others tell us to believe. No matter what facts we think that we are making an educated decision on, the are in all actuality tainted and dripping with bias.

THANK YOU

well I thought you don't "enjoy fighting over something that has already ended"... lol
there goes another brainwashed "americahye"
I like you better quiet DOROBO...
you need stronger facts if you wanna get into this whole war thing!
8) 8) 8)

[jahannam]

hahahah Anon was right...
I just used "..." "......." twice in my last post...
sorry.. not on purpose lol

[surferarmo]

ugh, wow. You guys enjoy fighting over something that has already ended? I have not read any of these posts. People need to realize that this war should have ended 10 years ago with the gulf war. We should have perused Sadam into his damn sand castle and kicked his ass back then. We have just wasted ten years by letting that stupid xxxxer keep his regime.

OH and i'd like to address all of the peace activists. Shut the xxxx up. I can honestly say that your "no war" bull crap will get the US nowhere in global politics. You want people to listen to you? Free oppressed nations? Make third world countries a better place? Well going on a hunger strike or walking out of your damn classrooms isn't going to accomplish jack xxxx. Only one thing is respected in the modern world. Action. We can stick out are filthy white American middle class tongues out at Sadam all we want, but the only thing that could have changed the thousands of deaths taking place weekly in Iraq would be to go in there and stop it.

Allow me to predict the following posts. Dorobo is a war monger. Dorobo supports president Bush (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Dorobo thinks that America should bully other countries around.

Answer to this? Give me a xxxxing break. Don’t categorize me into any of your damn political view stereotypes. I wish war wasn't part of our daily society. But to believe otherwise is simply moronic. I cannot even begin to comprehend how that stupid xxxxer Bush got his Hick ass into the oval office. That happening shows the flaws and evils of politics. And I wish we didn't have to go and act as the international police man, but if we have to go and act as someone’s hard hitting ass kicking conscience, then so be it.

We all just repeat what others tell us to believe. No matter what facts we think that we are making an educated decision on, the are in all actuality tainted and dripping with bias.

THANK YOU

well I thought you don't "enjoy fighting over something that has already ended"... lol
there goes another brainwashed "americahye"
I like you better quiet DOROBO...
you need stronger facts if you wanna get into this whole war thing!
8) 8) 8)

At least he has facts.

[Anonymouse]

Muslims in the mid-east to hate us. That is a common fact, maybe it isnt true for all, but it is for most. I think Saddam, and Osama was making a mockery of these nations and of Arab people. I do not hate these people, nor am I racist. I just believe they hate us for reasons different than they say.

First off, there is no link between Osama and Saddam and none has ever been established which makes me question why you state it here and now as some sort of an established fact. Secondly the only reason the Muslims in the mid-east hate us is not becuase they are "jealous" which is in itself a silly answer. The conservative elements have a way of trying to make the world into a morally unambiguous conflict of good and evil. We are "good" and they are "evil" because they hate us and are jealous. No, the reason they hate us is because of our support for Israel which uses American tax dollars and weapons to kill Muslims. They hate us because we constantly intervene in the middle East bombing their lands, homes, schools and hospitals, in essence killing them.

What puzzles me is no conservatives ever ask the question of why they hate us and they never look for an answer short of "they are jealous". That is being a critical nor analytical thinker.

You never asked why we have distress with them Baron. Why do you only see it one way? You conceptualize the mid-east as the victims and the US as the intruder. You polarize it to the extremes. It doesnt work that way. They hate us because they are jealous. They want to take over and make everyone Muslim. The infidel, as they call us, is an obvious indicator of hatred. When they bombed and killed 5000 civilians in the WTC do you think I am going to sit down with them and ask why they did that? NO. They got a civilian target...knowingly. I dont stress the pentagon that much because it was a military target. Although I do care about the people in those buildings, that target being hit was more understandible. The people who endorse terrorism are sick. How can that be denied? I am serious. THey dont like us because they want something they dont have. They say we are greedy, and selfish, and they put themselves on a pedastool thinking they are the righteous country in the land. Bullxxxx. Women are beaten, people are tortured, houses burned all in the name of the Koran.

Actually the U.S. is the intruder in that region since it is meddling in their affairs, and bombing their people for the self interest of a select few and of course Israel. The survival of Israel requires that there exist no Islamic power in the region and therefore all Islamic states must be kept in check. If the U.S. is not the intruder, then I am to guess that Republican methodology portrays the U.S. as the savior?

As for the WTC, there is no evidence that Osama bin laden was behind it. You sit here and make an unsubstantiated assertion to the general Muslim population and say "they did it" and offer no evidence. Sure there were muslim names recovered after the tragedy but the media never said that half of the names mentioned were people who lived in the Middle East and why on earth were their identities being used here? You forget that it was the FBI and CIA who funded and trained these same terrorists, who were also in charge of trying to blow up the WTC in 93, and one FBI agent by the name of John Anticev comes to mind who helped give them the supplies necessary and the funding.

The people who endorse terrorism are indeed sick and you should look no further than the U.S.A. which in essence started the whole war on terrorism as the terrorists themselves are a by product of U.S. thinking and ingenuity. Put the blame where it ought to be. It's easier to believe in the George Bush explanation of "Why they hate us?" and more comforting, as they resent our "freedom" and "democracy" and the cultural failings. What this ignores is that Islam once had a golden age. The present Algebra is an invention of Islam. Our number system is from Islam. When much of the world was in the dark ages, and certainly Europe, Islam was the world power connecting distant lands through trade and knowledge. They developed trigonometry. They made more accurate maps of latitude and longitude and knew before anyone that the earth was not flat. The Persian Omar Khayyam developed a calendar so reliable that over 500 years it was off by only one day. Of course all this is ignored and never mentioned because they are "jealous" and "hate us".

Now I told you before, and only minimal observation would point this out. All we have seen are the extremeists. Where are the moderates? I have not heard anyone from the middle east say that the practices of Osama and Saddam are not mainstream Muslim faith. If you can find one printed source, then tell me what it is. It needs to clearly illustrate that the terror extremists are a minority. I dont care if 10 Muslims say they are moderate, they are the exception, the rest hate us, and want us dead. I will not another building get burned.

Again this goes back to the fundamentals which I mentioned up top. There are reasons why they hate us. Nothing is without justification or provocation. If you cannot accept this on its face value, then you are trying too hard to believe in the reasons offered by FOX news.

If there are any moderates, they are not able to speak up maybe because of fear of retribution. Just an example of the government they live in. As far as I am concerned, the majority are what we call extremeists, who hate us because they have less resources, and they use the respectful Koran to back it up. And I refuse to ask someone why they hate us and implement an approach that shows the acceptance, and makes OK the tactics of bombing buildings with innocent civilians in them.

What do you think those children felt when their moms and dads didnt come home from work that day?

What you are in essence saying is because they hate us and they are extremists we should destroy them. Nevermind that you and others who defend the American imperialistic campaign of death and destruction on innocent people without any evidence that the were involved in WTC bombings, or possessing weapons of mass destruction. By that logic other countries have a right to destroy us because we are hateful of anyone who doesnt comply or adhere to U.S. standards and we ourselves have chickenhawk extremists like Rumsfeld, Perle, Wolfowitz, the latter two being Jews in key positions. Perle is also a dual citizen of Israel. Why is such a person allowed to hold office? Where do you think his ultimate loyalty lies?

Quite frankly, I am tired of the regurgiated unsubstantiated assertions used to make headway for a 'case for war'. There has been no evidence that the government can offer to the UN or the world, other than doctored papers, what makes you think you have any that justifies an illegal war, curtailing the constitution and international law? This thread should either produce more fruitful results or else it is a trip down the road of circular logic where no progress has been made.

Again let us reiterate some basic ideas. There is no evidence that Osama bin Laden was behind 9-11. There is no evidence that Iraq was behind 9-11. There is no evidence that Iraq has any weapons of mass destruction. There is no evidence that Iraq threatened the U.S. with any weapons of mass destruction. It used to be that all we heard was Osama. Now it is Iraq and Saddam and that miscellanous and mythical link has been established between Saddam and bin Laden, mind you without any evidence as usual. Unsubstantiated assertions are merely that. The onus or the burden of proof lies on those who assert the claims and 'facts', not the other way around. Those who state their case must provide evidence. That is the way it works everywhere in all legal systems. You don't have to like it, that is the way it is.

And the the liberals constantly conceptualize the rest of the world as good, and us as evil. This arguement can go both ways and would last a life time. You never got to my question stated earlier. You think it is ok for a ruler to go and kill his own people, and gain power through means of aquiring territory? You obviously dont think imperialism is ok, and you constantly criticise the US for that, yet there have been no assertions of actually taking over a territory and keeping for ourselves. That said, what do you think we should have done with Saddam? Just left another Stalin figure go about and eventually amass to something great that could get us later?

Funny I never thought of myself as a liberal. You on the other hand admitted youre a Republican. Don't put labels where there are none.

I don't conceptualize the world as good. I simply state it as it is that the U.S. has different motives than the ones presented. Since you didn't offer a rebuttal to the points raised I am to guess you agree, and the only thing I asked was for evidence. Your posts have turned into nothing but questions such as "what do you think we should have done with Saddam?" and when answered you return with more hypothetical opinions. I already answered to what I think about Saddam.

I am not saying this to try to sound condescending but youre overall defense or rather case for war is weak and rests on nothing except "Saddam was evil" which is subjective in itself. One could say the same about Bush does it make it so? You obviously wouldn't think Bush is evil, I on the other hand would. I don't see how Saddam could ever become Stalin. Saddam pales in comparison to the person we knew as Joseph Dzudhashvili. You clearly are using the same analogy the Republicans use. The more popular one is comparing Saddam to Hitler, which is fallacious. 1939 Germany was a super power, the economy the best,, the manufacturing capabilities immense, Hitler was dictator of that nation. Saddam is ruler of beaten country, no proper sanitation, schools, nor hospitals. 5000 children died there monthly due to the UN economicsanctions, the figures are probably more amplified now. Iraq was not an expansionist state, nor had the resources, money, or manpower to accomplish such a feat. It would have been geopolitical suicide. I see no valid reason to invade Saddam based on constant referneces to his 'evilness'. It seems after stripping all the status quo's reasons for war on Iraq we are left with this appeal to his evilness which is the last refuge of those who promote this war and defend it.

I don't see what point you are trying to make with this response but it certainly has no evidence that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction.

You admitted that you were "inclined to call yourself a civil liberatarian." I admit I am a Republican, but that is not what shaped me. I thought the way I do after taking politics classes, and researching various points of view in American politics, communism, socialism, capatilism, dictatorships, monarchies and you name, I have checked it out. I found that my views closely reflected that of the Republican parties, therefore I identified myself with them.

You should read my posts more closely. I did address your point about proof dealing with WMD's. They were used before. They exist.

Sure, Bush is evil to some people, I am evil to some people, and so are you. You might think me evil, and you dont even know me. I think you are somewhat evil, for you care nothing about the Iraqi people, or at least that is what I am getting from your posts. Our mothers think we are angels, my friends praise me for being open minded. You see, Anon I research differing opinions, and I go with the one I find most suiting for our needs, for American needs. I always keep an open mind. It seems as if you think the opposite only because I disagree with you. That is ridiculous. This arguement has turned into opinion, and could go on forever.

When was it established that WMDs exist? At this point surfer, I am not interested in all the quaint reasons for coming to our political leanings but am rather interested in facts and evidence. When was it established that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction?

[Anonymouse]

ugh, wow. You guys enjoy fighting over something that has already ended? I have not read any of these posts. People need to realize that this war should have ended 10 years ago with the gulf war. We should have perused Sadam into his damn sand castle and kicked his ass back then. We have just wasted ten years by letting that stupid xxxxer keep his regime.

OH and i'd like to address all of the peace activists. Shut the xxxx up. I can honestly say that your "no war" bull crap will get the US nowhere in global politics. You want people to listen to you? Free oppressed nations? Make third world countries a better place? Well going on a hunger strike or walking out of your damn classrooms isn't going to accomplish jack xxxx. Only one thing is respected in the modern world. Action. We can stick out are filthy white American middle class tongues out at Sadam all we want, but the only thing that could have changed the thousands of deaths taking place weekly in Iraq would be to go in there and stop it.

Allow me to predict the following posts. Dorobo is a war monger. Dorobo supports president Bush (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA). Dorobo thinks that America should bully other countries around.

Answer to this? Give me a xxxxing break. Don’t categorize me into any of your damn political view stereotypes. I wish war wasn't part of our daily society. But to believe otherwise is simply moronic. I cannot even begin to comprehend how that stupid xxxxer Bush got his Hick ass into the oval office. That happening shows the flaws and evils of politics. And I wish we didn't have to go and act as the international police man, but if we have to go and act as someone’s hard hitting ass kicking conscience, then so be it.

We all just repeat what others tell us to believe. No matter what facts we think that we are making an educated decision on, the are in all actuality tainted and dripping with bias.

THANK YOU

well I thought you don't "enjoy fighting over something that has already ended"... lol
there goes another brainwashed "americahye"
I like you better quiet DOROBO...
you need stronger facts if you wanna get into this whole war thing!
8) 8) 8)

At least he has facts.

What facts does he have? You just say that because his opinion matches your opinion, but no facts.

He has about as much facts as you do, which is none.