I am starting to like you guys...

[surferarmo]

And that is not good. Things have changed, and it is our job as active members of this forum to take it back. I liked the good ol' days, when I would lose sleep typing posts motivated by dislike of each of you. I intend to bring it back. I call it the Post Revolution. All those down to join and take the forum to the way it was, before AC and Jahannam corrupted it with regulations, post away in this forum as if there were no AC.

I say, xxxx you all! I really hate you. And screw you Baron. I would wish punishment upon you, but living in Canada is cruel enough. Anon, its ok to leave the library. Jahannam, and Flames, you both know how much I despise you and your hypocritical points of views.

Now lets talk POLITICS.

I love the tax cut. How bout you? We need this people. Poor people try to get jobs every day. Some of them do get jobs. When they get their check, half of it is taken away from them in the form of taxes. Whether it be initial taxes taken off our checks, or sales tax, they are being stripped of their meager wealth to purchase necessary means which keep them alive. Tax cut is necessary and so is a Republican Governor.

Quick question. What you guys think about issues of religion and Armenia, religion and the US, and Religion and government?

(And just to make this how it was before. Anon, you need to take this seriously and argue with me for 100 posts like old times. Baron needs to jump in and back you, then Pat comes in and backs me. Jahnnam jumps on Anons side cause she doesnt know what else to do. Flames, you make fun of me and everyone else from the sidelines. Speakenglishordie can say something stupid like always. Then my friends, it will turn back to the ways of old...AMEN)

[xBaron Dants]

Haha, I know Surfer, things are getting quite weird, I miss hating you.
AND I DO NOT JUMP TO BACK ANYONE, I just happen to disagree with everything you say
Not on the tax cuts though, can't disagree there. I'm guessing you're talking about California though. Here in Quebec, we need one bad, and the newly-elected Liberal party (non separatist, headed by former federal conservative leader Jean Charest) has promised to give one pretty soon. We'll see how it works out.

Religion and Armenia: Christianity in Armenia is at an interesting stage right now. Many, given the circumstances of the first years of independance and the tough times they went through do not believe in God, others put faith in Him so they can get out of the tough times, and others believe in Him because they got out of the tough times. Religion in Armenia is the ONLY thing that kept us alive during all these years, and debating that would be very hard. Compared to the history of Western European Churches who have abused their believers, I believe that the Armenian Apostolic Church has been the support we needed through the years of the Ottoman Empire (Especially Khrimian Hayrig, and the Yergaté Sherep story). The Church also played an instrumental part in the liberation of Artsakh. It is gradually losing importance, as it was to be expected, but make no mistake, its presence is still strong. The celebration of the 1700th anniversary, reminding all Armenians that they are in fact the first Christian nation, has played a role in heightening the sense of pride towards Christianity. Also, the Apostolic Church is very respected by the Armenian Government, which has created problems for other religions, such as the Jehovah's witnesses, who are not yet recognized officially as a religion, and who have had a few members arrested for attempting to convert small children without the approval of their parents (I do agree on that, but anywho...). Here's another story that proves the importance of religion in Armenia: The government will be issuing social identity numbers to its citizens in order to facilitate tax payments and so on. However, labeling human beings with numbers is against our Church's beliefs, and after complaints by a few citizens (whose arguments were backed by the Church), it has been clarified that the numbers are attributed to the cards, and not the people. Just a small example, but it's a proof that religion does have a role in government affairs. Is that a good or bad thing? Given our still fragile geopolitical situation, a sense of pride towards our national identity is, in my opinion, positive. Eventually, as we become a stronger nation with (hopefully) normalized relations with our neighbours (except maybe the Azeris for quite some time), religion might lose its impact, which would be a shame, as our Church has truly been something of which we can be proud of(unlike the priests in Quebec who told my friend's grandmother she'd go to hell because she couldn't have a 10th child), and it should remain in our culture for years to come.

Now does that in ANY WAY answer your question? lol

[patlajan]

Since the beginning of his existence man has invented gods or a god to explain the things that could not be explained and to control people. Cave people made stone dolls and drew on their caves for good luck in hunting. The native americans worshiped the sun.
Organized religion is a dream, and it is time to wake up.
All religious societies are and have been historically in decline. Do you think this is coincidence? Society that has adherently stuck to any religion has paid the price. Experts tell business people that are about to go to Saudi Arabia not to expect any meeting to start on time, because Muslims believe time is in god's hands. What a joke. Your example of social security numbers being blocked by the church is yet another example of religion getting in the way of progress.

I certainly do not need a 2,000 year old collection of books mostly comprised of poetic nonsense written 50 years after Jesus’ death by people who probably never knew him to tell me how to live. While it is true that there are some valuable lessons in Christian teachings this has been perverted into a means of conrol and political power by guys who wear weird hats, and act like the wizard of oz, and only read you the good parts of scripture.

The Indian rain dance always worked because they wouldn't stop until it rained.

[gorsenvadz]

do i get no hate?

[surferarmo]

Haha, I know Surfer, things are getting quite weird, I miss hating you.
AND I DO NOT JUMP TO BACK ANYONE, I just happen to disagree with everything you say
Not on the tax cuts though, can't disagree there. I'm guessing you're talking about California though. Here in Quebec, we need one bad, and the newly-elected Liberal party (non separatist, headed by former federal conservative leader Jean Charest) has promised to give one pretty soon. We'll see how it works out.

Religion and Armenia: Christianity in Armenia is at an interesting stage right now. Many, given the circumstances of the first years of independance and the tough times they went through do not believe in God, others put faith in Him so they can get out of the tough times, and others believe in Him because they got out of the tough times. Religion in Armenia is the ONLY thing that kept us alive during all these years, and debating that would be very hard. Compared to the history of Western European Churches who have abused their believers, I believe that the Armenian Apostolic Church has been the support we needed through the years of the Ottoman Empire (Especially Khrimian Hayrig, and the Yergaté Sherep story). The Church also played an instrumental part in the liberation of Artsakh. It is gradually losing importance, as it was to be expected, but make no mistake, its presence is still strong. The celebration of the 1700th anniversary, reminding all Armenians that they are in fact the first Christian nation, has played a role in heightening the sense of pride towards Christianity. Also, the Apostolic Church is very respected by the Armenian Government, which has created problems for other religions, such as the Jehovah's witnesses, who are not yet recognized officially as a religion, and who have had a few members arrested for attempting to convert small children without the approval of their parents (I do agree on that, but anywho...). Here's another story that proves the importance of religion in Armenia: The government will be issuing social identity numbers to its citizens in order to facilitate tax payments and so on. However, labeling human beings with numbers is against our Church's beliefs, and after complaints by a few citizens (whose arguments were backed by the Church), it has been clarified that the numbers are attributed to the cards, and not the people. Just a small example, but it's a proof that religion does have a role in government affairs. Is that a good or bad thing? Given our still fragile geopolitical situation, a sense of pride towards our national identity is, in my opinion, positive. Eventually, as we become a stronger nation with (hopefully) normalized relations with our neighbours (except maybe the Azeris for quite some time), religion might lose its impact, which would be a shame, as our Church has truly been something of which we can be proud of(unlike the priests in Quebec who told my friend's grandmother she'd go to hell because she couldn't have a 10th child), and it should remain in our culture for years to come.

Now does that in ANY WAY answer your question? lol

Good start. I feel like things are getting better.

I do agree with you somewhat on the issue of religion and its importance to Armenia. It has been our glue so to speak. It has kept us strong, and kept us together through all times of hardship. Whether it helped us win battles...that is another story. Now, I do believe in God, and our church. But our church is run by man. The church, I believe has taken this Motherly, nurturing figure too far. They use God to instill fear in peoples minds so that authority can be credible in the eyes of the public. Honestly, the church is running Armenia. When did preists become politicians? I am not saying they are corrupt. That is relative, hell Baron, you are the most corrupt man to some people, and to others you are the most true and just, and same goes for me. We are all people, and are judged relatively. My point is that the church should not be actively involved in practical politics, or governmental affairs because it will grant the church more than it was granted when we originally started back in 301 AD. This will in turn corrupt the Church, and in effect, will corrupt Gods, name. Not good. When the Church gets in Politics is when persecution begins.

[surferarmo]

Since the beginning of his existence man has invented gods or a god to explain the things that could not be explained and to control people. Cave people made stone dolls and drew on their caves for good luck in hunting. The native americans worshiped the sun.
Organized religion is a dream, and it is time to wake up.
All religious societies are and have been historically in decline. Do you think this is coincidence? Society that has adherently stuck to any religion has paid the price. Experts tell business people that are about to go to Saudi Arabia not to expect any meeting to start on time, because Muslims believe time is in god's hands. What a joke. Your example of social security numbers being blocked by the church is yet another example of religion getting in the way of progress.

I certainly do not need a 2,000 year old collection of books mostly comprised of poetic nonsense written 50 years after Jesus’ death by people who probably never knew him to tell me how to live. While it is true that there are some valuable lessons in Christian teachings this has been perverted into a means of conrol and political power by guys who wear weird hats, and act like the wizard of oz, and only read you the good parts of scripture.

The Indian rain dance always worked because they wouldn't stop until it rained.

Some things I can come to agree with you on. But listen to this Pat. What Nation, unlike Christianity has been existence WHILE RETAINING ITS CONSISTENCY for 2000 years. Rome was around for long time, but never consistent, it went from republic, to democracy, to paterfamilus, to dictatorship to empire...all the while rules are changing. For 2000 years Apostolic Orthodox church has retained its consistency. Christianity is also the ONLY religion where God came down as a person and actually physically spoke to people, touched people, and interacted with people. No other religion can claim that...not even jews. God did not come down physically and talk to Moses, he came down spiritually in the form of a burning bush. Every other religion, Muslim, Pagan, Mormans, are formed on the basis of a person claiming to be a prophet of some sort, and they took that prophets word, and made religion. CHristians, Apostolic Christians, actually use Gods word and made religion.

[xBaron Dants]

Good start. I feel like things are getting better.

I do agree with you somewhat on the issue of religion and its importance to Armenia. It has been our glue so to speak. It has kept us strong, and kept us together through all times of hardship. Whether it helped us win battles...that is another story. Now, I do believe in God, and our church. But our church is run by man. The church, I believe has taken this Motherly, nurturing figure too far. They use God to instill fear in peoples minds so that authority can be credible in the eyes of the public. Honestly, the church is running Armenia. When did preists become politicians? I am not saying they are corrupt. That is relative, hell Baron, you are the most corrupt man to some people, and to others you are the most true and just, and same goes for me. We are all people, and are judged relatively. My point is that the church should not be actively involved in practical politics, or governmental affairs because it will grant the church more than it was granted when we originally started back in 301 AD. This will in turn corrupt the Church, and in effect, will corrupt Gods, name. Not good. When the Church gets in Politics is when persecution begins.

Disagreee there (and things are now back to normal). The Church did NOT change the law, the government changed the law in order to respect the church. The Armenian Apostolic Church is our state chuch, therefore it was normal to adapt the law so that it would not go against our Church's values. Regarding your statement about the Church running Armenia, that is veeeery distant from the truth, and nothing that I have read, or seen or heard in Armenia suggested otherwise. Armenia has a secular government, and all minorities are respected. Yes, the Jehovah's witnesses did have some problem, but I do believe that they caused most of them by trying to convert children, as I mentionned earlier. Besides that, Israel (or maybe a diplomat or two) has claimed that the government of Armenia is anti-semetic, but the head of the Jewish association of Armenia has denied any wrongdoings done by Armenians towards the Jews. A veery cool guy I met in Armenia, whose mom was Jewish, also told me that all such stories are fabricated. The Iranian Muslims are also treated well, as you may have witnessed by the Mosque which is on the busiest street of Armenia, Mashtots (how i miss it), as well as by the decision of the Artsakh Government to repair the Iranian Mosque in Shushi, which needs renovations after the war. Therefore, there is no persecution going on, as the Armenian Church is not running the country, and I see no risk of it taking over anytime soon. It is not instilling fear in its inhabitants either, as most Armenians go to church only occasionally, and do not practice often.

[surferarmo]

Good start. I feel like things are getting better.

I do agree with you somewhat on the issue of religion and its importance to Armenia. It has been our glue so to speak. It has kept us strong, and kept us together through all times of hardship. Whether it helped us win battles...that is another story. Now, I do believe in God, and our church. But our church is run by man. The church, I believe has taken this Motherly, nurturing figure too far. They use God to instill fear in peoples minds so that authority can be credible in the eyes of the public. Honestly, the church is running Armenia. When did preists become politicians? I am not saying they are corrupt. That is relative, hell Baron, you are the most corrupt man to some people, and to others you are the most true and just, and same goes for me. We are all people, and are judged relatively. My point is that the church should not be actively involved in practical politics, or governmental affairs because it will grant the church more than it was granted when we originally started back in 301 AD. This will in turn corrupt the Church, and in effect, will corrupt Gods, name. Not good. When the Church gets in Politics is when persecution begins.

Disagreee there (and things are now back to normal). The Church did NOT change the law, the government changed the law in order to respect the church. The Armenian Apostolic Church is our state chuch, therefore it was normal to adapt the law so that it would not go against our Church's values. Regarding your statement about the Church running Armenia, that is veeeery distant from the truth, and nothing that I have read, or seen or heard in Armenia suggested otherwise. Armenia has a secular government, and all minorities are respected. Yes, the Jehovah's witnesses did have some problem, but I do believe that they caused most of them by trying to convert children, as I mentionned earlier. Besides that, Israel (or maybe a diplomat or two) has claimed that the government of Armenia is anti-semetic, but the head of the Jewish association of Armenia has denied any wrongdoings done by Armenians towards the Jews. A veery cool guy I met in Armenia, whose mom was Jewish, also told me that all such stories are fabricated. The Iranian Muslims are also treated well, as you may have witnessed by the Mosque which is on the busiest street of Armenia, Mashtots (how i miss it), as well as by the decision of the Artsakh Government to repair the Iranian Mosque in Shushi, which needs renovations after the war. Therefore, there is no persecution going on, as the Armenian Church is not running the country, and I see no risk of it taking over anytime soon. It is not instilling fear in its inhabitants either, as most Armenians go to church only occasionally, and do not practice often.

To say that the catholicos does not have any power over policy determined in Armenia is absolutely obsurd. The government does not want to create policy to undermine the church, therefore a bill can only become law in Armenia if the church approves, meaning, the Church does make the law of the land. And I remember people going to church all the time when I was in the Mother Land. It is a huge part of their lives. Some could argue that Christianity was our downfall. I dont believe it, but it is an arguement. I could easily play devils advocate on this one, and would love to on my next post.

[xBaron Dants]

Look, if the law can be changed so SLIGHTLY in order to not offend the christian believers, then why not? It would be like a party organized by the White House, where they only serve pork. I'm pretty sure they would add chicken or something in order to please the Muslims and the ever-present Jews. Nothing wrong there. This is just being politically correct. If (God forbid) Armenia were to declare war on Azerbaidjan tomorrow, it would not change its mind because our religion does not condone war, since this is a very important matter of foreign policy and especially national defence, and the government will do whatever it thinks is right for the country, regardless of the Church's opinion.

Armenians go to church every sunday when they have diasporans over, and they want to show them the churches. Other than that, MOST of them only go on the main occasions, and maybe once or twice during the year. The elderly are usually strong believers and go to church quite often, and with the stuff they've been through the past ten years (many have lost kids to war or emigration), it is perefectly understandable, but telling me that every 20 year old armenian goes to church every sunday is a lie.

[Anonymouse]

Lost is a man who abandons all faith, all spirituality, all the metaphysical, and replaces it with the cold and lifeless word called "reason".

For reason does not answer our questions, namely replaces the unknown with another name. Faith begins where reason ends.