Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

You do realize the article you posted cites research that concluded that the mercury levels are SAFE and that the mercury is eliminated very quickly, right?

Calm down Mister. I didn't start with any BS. ArmSurvival said there are heavy metals as if they are ALL bad. That is what I addressed. My point was that not all metals are bad. Yes, mercury can be toxic at high enough doses, but the evidence supports the conclusion that these levels are not met by the tiny quantities in vaccines. Don't build strawmen with feeding babies lead. Stick to the claim I am actually making. Just in case you conveniently missed it in this post as well, I'll paste it here: the evidence supports the conclusion that these levels are not met by the tiny quantities in vaccines.

Yes, and you do realize that the part that I posted explains how regardless of their "evidence", the use of mercury isn't necessary and it is used because it makes it cheaper.

The claims you are making are evidence given by the same organizations that promote the vaccines. They remind me of a used car salesman that will say just about anything to push their product onto you knowing very well that there are problems with it. Not all children are as easily susceptible to autism, and mercury free vaccinations would be ideal.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

I wasn't exactly hiding the references...

I linked to the other thread where I gave citations and I gave more here in this thread as well . It was you who asked for them last time.
Both of these are on the first page of this thread.

Again, these are studies that only deal with autism, of which I have seen studies that support either side of the argument. However, mercury causes a wide array of complications in the human body, which is in no way restricted to autism. Would you happen to have a study that focuses on the correlation of cancer rates? What about other behavioral problems or neurological problems?

Her quote is about influenza vaccine for healthy populations. Most people healthy adults don't get vaccinated for seasonal influenza and many who do get vaccinated have still been exposed because the vaccine match the strains that circulate each year varies. So, all of us have had some exposure to influenza.
She was on the safety committees and those committees have approved these vaccines, so she probably also found that they were safe.

Actually, she was saying that being exposed to influenza through a vaccine is different than having natural exposure to it. She said that natural exposure is what builds long-lasting immunity, and that vaccines only provide temporary immunity at best, and actually sap the long-term immunization of the general population.

What about H1N1 though? Post her opinion about H1N1 vaccinations or her thoughts on vaccinations for those in high risk populations. Show me something where she says that high risk people shouldn't get the H1N1 vaccine. Or something where she says the vaccines (seasonal or H1N1) are unsafe. So far all you've got are her concerns about vaccine dependency in regards to seasonal influenza only. That statement doesn't support what you claim it does, i.e. that the vaccines are unsafe.
She's talking about A and you're citing her as evidence for Z.

If you listened to the entire interview I posted (3 parts), she covers all these topics.

She says H1N1 is completely overblown, and that most people diagnosed with H1N1 (around 90%) do not actually have H1N1, and that she has yet to meet anyone who has caught H1N1. She said the fact that doctors are rushing to diagnose ANY flu-like symptoms as “H1N1” is alarming, and it highlights the basic problem with the medical community at large.

She talks about the safety (more like lack of safety) of vaccines, and she talks about the risks of mercury exposure through the vaccines.

[Siggie]

Re: Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Countless references? In this thread you posted a blog from 1 doctor (Novella). In most of what I've seen from his blog, he just talks about how there is no link between mercury and autism (a controversial topic), even though he doesn't post any of the actual studies conducted. If he does, then link it, because I don't have time to go through the thousands of posts he has written. However, autism is not the only side-effect of mercury exposure---Try various forms of cancer. Do you have any studies on that as well?
...

Notice she was part of the CDC panel that dealt with vaccine safety. So you're saying she is just a conspiracy theorist, because she happens to bring to light much of the dangers of vaccines through her years of experience?

I wasn't exactly hiding the references...

I linked to the other thread where I gave citations and I gave more here in this thread as well . It was you who asked for them last time.
Both of these are on the first page of this thread.

Her quote is about influenza vaccine for healthy populations. Most people healthy adults don't get vaccinated for seasonal influenza and many who do get vaccinated have still been exposed because the vaccine match the strains that circulate each year varies. So, all of us have had some exposure to influenza.
She was on the safety committees and those committees have approved these vaccines, so she probably also found that they were safe.

What about H1N1 though? Post her opinion about H1N1 vaccinations or her thoughts on vaccinations for those in high risk populations. Show me something where she says that high risk people shouldn't get the H1N1 vaccine. Or something where she says the vaccines (seasonal or H1N1) are unsafe. So far all you've got are her concerns about vaccine dependency in regards to seasonal influenza only. That statement doesn't support what you claim it does, i.e. that the vaccines are unsafe.
She's talking about A and you're citing her as evidence for Z.

Mercury is not needed as part of the vaccine, it's a preservative. They have removed the use of mercury in childhood vaccines (so they claim). Mercury is not GOOD for your health, don't even start with that b.s. Zinc, iron, magnesium, sodium are not toxic where as mercury IS. Next thing you're going to say is that lead is ok to consume. I don't know too many babies or toddlers that are fed tuna or swordfish. Even still, not all tuna can be expected to contain the same amount of mercury.



http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/s...dex.cfm?id=160

You do realize the article you posted cites research that concluded that the mercury levels are SAFE and that the mercury is eliminated very quickly, right?

Calm down Mister. I didn't start with any BS. ArmSurvival said there are heavy metals as if they are ALL bad. That is what I addressed. My point was that not all metals are bad. Yes, mercury can be toxic at high enough doses, but the evidence supports the conclusion that these levels are not met by the tiny quantities in vaccines. Don't build strawmen with feeding babies lead. Stick to the claim I am actually making. Just in case you conveniently missed it in this post as well, I'll paste it here: the evidence supports the conclusion that these levels are not met by the tiny quantities in vaccines.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

You're quoting Dr. Oz? A Turk TV doctor who advocate crock alternative medicine? Really?

There's no evidence that thimerosal is harmful. I've already posted countless references about it and MMR showing it's perfectly safe. Mercury is in air, water, and soil, so there are trace amounts in everything (even plants). If you eat tuna once a year, you're likely getting more mercury than is in an influenza vaccine.

You're assuming that all metals are bad for us, but zinc, iron, magnesium, etc are all "metals" and are essential for health. And animal DNA? Do you eat meat, eggs, and dairy?

Mercury is not needed as part of the vaccine, it's a preservative. They have removed the use of mercury in childhood vaccines (so they claim). Mercury is not GOOD for your health, don't even start with that b.s. Zinc, iron, magnesium, sodium are not toxic where as mercury IS. Next thing you're going to say is that lead is ok to consume. I don't know too many babies or toddlers that are fed tuna or swordfish. Even still, not all tuna can be expected to contain the same amount of mercury.

"Removing thimerosal from U.S. vaccines has had several effects, Pichichero says. Since vaccines don’t last as long without a preservative, the elimination of thimerosal caused some vaccine makers to produce single-dose vials, which are more expensive to produce, store, and ship. For some vaccines, manufacturers use thimerosal throughout the manufacturing process, then remove the compound, which also adds to the cost of the vaccine. Such actions raised the cost of vaccines, making it less likely that they’ll be used as widely as possible.

Thimerosal is still part of vaccines widely used in other nations. In October the World Health Organization announced guidelines suggesting that thimerosal-containing vaccines are safe and should continue to be used, a conclusion based partly on Pichichero’s findings.

“In countries that are still confronting diseases like whooping cough and tetanus and measles, where millions of children die of the disease, there is no argument. Where people are dying of these diseases, switching to a thimerosal-free vaccine would raise the prices such that millions of children would go unvaccinated.

“Although America can afford to pay a higher price for newly formulated vaccines, much of the rest of the world cannot afford the increased cost of thimerosal-free vaccines. For them, it’s a critical issue of life and death."

http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/news/s...dex.cfm?id=160

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

You're quoting Dr. Oz? A Turk TV doctor who advocate crock alternative medicine? Really?

He's saying most people should get vaccinated, except his own family. This is not very different from most other pro-vaccine doctors. So if you think he's a quack, then we're in agreement.

There's no evidence that thimerosal is harmful. I've already posted countless references about it and MMR showing it's perfectly safe. Mercury is in air, water, and soil, so there are trace amounts in everything (even plants). If you eat tuna once a year, you're likely getting more mercury than is in an influenza vaccine.

Countless references? In this thread you posted a blog from 1 doctor (Novella). In most of what I've seen from his blog, he just talks about how there is no link between mercury and autism (a controversial topic), even though he doesn't post any of the actual studies conducted. If he does, then link it, because I don't have time to go through the thousands of posts he has written. However, autism is not the only side-effect of mercury exposure---Try various forms of cancer. Do you have any studies on that as well?

And, you're basically saying that Barbara Loe Fisher is a quack, and is engaging in psuedo-science. Let me share with you some of her credentials (from wikipedia):

National Vaccine Advisory Committee (1988-1991), US Department of Health and Human Services; Chair, Subcommittee on Vaccine Adverse Events
Vaccine Safety Forum, Institute of Medicine, National Academy of Sciences (1995-1998)
Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee of the Food and Drug Administration (1999-2003), US Department of Health and Human Services
Vaccine Policy Analysis Collaborative: A US Government Experiment in Public Engagement (2002-2005)
Blue Ribbon Panel on Vaccine Safety, Centers for Disease Control (June 3-4, 2004)
Consumers United for Evidence Based Healthcare, The Cochrane Collaboration - U.S. (August 2006 - present)

Notice she was part of the CDC panel that dealt with vaccine safety. So you're saying she is just a conspiracy theorist, because she happens to bring to light much of the dangers of vaccines through her years of experience?

[Siggie]

Re: Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

You can make an argument for vaccines that treat especially horrible diseases, so we won't go there. But to sit there and tell me that its okay to get a flu shot once a year (twice now with the swine flu), when each shot contains mercury, heavy metals, and animal DNA, goes against basic science and medicine. Mercury is a known toxin, and it does damage at the scale of parts per Billion, as opposed to most things that are measured in parts per Million. That means a single molecule of mercury can do damage to your body (the damage is not always visible), and these flu shots contain many, many molecules of it (and mercury is just one of the many harmful ingredients)

So these doctors are basically saying its okay to put mercury into your bloodstream. Thanks for the update. While we're at it, maybe we should rewrite all known information in regards to mercury, and give these guys a Nobel Prize for their brilliant discovery

Many doctors and healthcare workers refuse to be vaccinated. Its reached the point where the state has to FORCE people in the medical industry to get vaccinated. Why would people in the medical industry resist vaccination if the risk is worth it? So do most people in the medical industry engage in psuedo-science and conspiracy theories, or do they know something most of us don't?


Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_rKKawZx0I

Pay attention at 5:00. Listen to what the doctor says:

"I'm gonna get it, if that helps at all. But I'll tell you, my wife is not gonna immunize our kids. Cause I've got four of them, and when I go home I'm not Dr. Oz, I'm Mr. Oz."

A red flag if I ever saw one. He's getting one because he has no choice, so he has to put a smile on his face and tell people why the vaccines are good for you. But if children are at the highest risk of this flu, why wouldn't this doctor make his kids get vaccinated? Lets use some common sense, guys.

You're quoting Dr. Oz? A Turk TV doctor who advocate crock alternative medicine? Really?

There's no evidence that thimerosal is harmful. I've already posted countless references about it and MMR showing it's perfectly safe. Mercury is in air, water, and soil, so there are trace amounts in everything (even plants). If you eat tuna once a year, you're likely getting more mercury than is in an influenza vaccine.

You're assuming that all metals are bad for us, but zinc, iron, magnesium, etc are all "metals" and are essential for health. And animal DNA? Do you eat meat, eggs, and dairy?

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

You can make an argument for vaccines that treat especially horrible diseases, so we won't go there. But to sit there and tell me that its okay to get a flu shot once a year (twice now with the swine flu), when each shot contains mercury, heavy metals, and animal DNA, goes against basic science and medicine. Mercury is a known toxin, and it does damage at the scale of parts per Billion, as opposed to most things that are measured in parts per Million. That means a single molecule of mercury can do damage to your body (the damage is not always visible), and these flu shots contain many, many molecules of it (and mercury is just one of the many harmful ingredients)

So these doctors are basically saying its okay to put mercury into your bloodstream. Thanks for the update. While we're at it, maybe we should rewrite all known information in regards to mercury, and give these guys a Nobel Prize for their brilliant discovery

Many doctors and healthcare workers refuse to be vaccinated. Its reached the point where the state has to FORCE people in the medical industry to get vaccinated. Why would people in the medical industry resist vaccination if the risk is worth it? So do most people in the medical industry engage in psuedo-science and conspiracy theories, or do they know something most of us don't?


Watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_rKKawZx0I

Pay attention at 5:00. Listen to what the doctor says:

"I'm gonna get it, if that helps at all. But I'll tell you, my wife is not gonna immunize our kids. Cause I've got four of them, and when I go home I'm not Dr. Oz, I'm Mr. Oz."

A red flag if I ever saw one. He's getting one because he has no choice, so he has to put a smile on his face and tell people why the vaccines are good for you. But if children are at the highest risk of this flu, why wouldn't this doctor make his kids get vaccinated? Lets use some common sense, guys.

[Yedtarts]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Must be our genes. There is a giant swine flu repelling force around us.

Maybe it has a Turkish origin.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Meanwhile, Armenia continues to remain H1N1 free but remains on high alert in case of an outbreak.
--------------------------------------------------------
Armenia has no swine-flu cases registered


According to Armenia’s chief infectiologist, Ara Asoyan, and Anti-Epidemiological Inspectorate Director Artavazd Vanyan, there has not been a single case of H1N1 virus in Armenia.

Sanitary-quarantine measures have been put in place to prevent spread of infection, Artavazd Vanyan announced. He also pointed that Armenia has got all the necessary laboratory equipment providing medical examination.

414 thousand laboratory-confirmed cases have been reported worldwide, said Ara Asoyan.

http://www.aysor.am/en/news/2009/10/30/grip/

Must be our genes. There is a giant swine flu repelling force around us.

[Siggie]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Robert E. Bartholomew is a social scientist who specializes in mass delusions. He describes them here, in an article he wrote for the NESS, but also in a longer article here for the Skeptical Inquirer and in his several books. About mass delusions he writes:

"A collective delusion is the term most commonly used by social scientists to describe the relatively spontaneous spread of false beliefs that do not occur in an organized, institutionalized or ritualistic fashion."

Today, we live in a connected virtual community, and YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, and blogs, in addition to traditional media, are the medium through which community panic and delusions spread.

At this time there are two slow panics spreading through the community – fear of the H1N1 “swine” flu pandemic, and fear of the vaccine to prevent H1N1 flu. Regarding the pandemic itself – this is a real threat, it is just not known at this time how severe it will turn out to be. So far it is looking like another seasonal flu in severity, but with some different features, such as a greater tendency to severely affect otherwise healthy individuals.

The panic over the vaccine, however, is entirely manufactured, primarily by dedicated conspiracy theorists and anti-vaccinationists, and then aided by irresponsible media. There have been two stories in particular about alleged severe reactions following vaccines recently, one dealing with the HPV vaccine and the recent cased of what is being called dystonia following the seasonal flu vaccine. The young girl who died within hours of getting the HPV vaccine was found to have a heart defect, and her death had nothing to do with the vaccine, so that story was rather short-lived.

The new case making the rounds, however, appears to have some legs. It is getting international news attention, and I am being flooded with e-mail requests to analyze the case.

This is the story of Desiree Jennings, who is a 28 year old cheerleader who was apparently healthy until August when she received the seasonal flu vaccine. Ten days later she developed a severe respiratory illness, probably the flu, requiring hospitalization. She then developed an apparent neurological reaction in which she has difficulty speaking and walking, with involuntary muscle contractions and contortions. Her symptoms (including speech) are relieved, however, by walking backwards or by running. She also seems to have attacks of muscle contortions.

News reports are presenting her story as a rare vaccine reaction. Take a look at the video of her movements on this news report also.

This case, of course, has been immediately picked up by the anti-vaccine crowd. Generation Rescue, Jenny McCarthy’s anti-vaccine organization, wasted no time in exploiting this poor girl for their own agenda. She is now the latest poster child in the war against vaccines.

The media is largely covered in fail over their reporting of this case. They failed to ask basic journalistic questions – was the illness Jennings suffered from due to the vaccine, was it confirmed as the flu, and was it the strain from the vaccine, was the incubation period compatible with a vaccine-induced flu, did she get the live-virus version of the vaccine, does she really have dystonia, has that diagnosis been verified, are their other possibilities, and what is the plausibility that it was caused by the vaccine?

None of these basic questions are addressed in the news reports – instead we are given an emotional report of a “one in a million” (a figure apparently pulled out of someone’s butt) vaccine reaction. Her episodes are called “seizures” when they are almost certainly not seizures. Her condition has also been called permanent and irreversible – without any justification.

Normally I try to refrain from making medical diagnoses in public cases – but Jennings has now inserted herself in to the anti-vaccine movement, and is using her own case to “warn about the dangers of vaccines.” To mitigate the damage to public health brought about by misinformation in this case, I think it is necessary to provide some expert opinion.

The movements and symptoms that Ms. Jennings displays on the public videos I have seen (linked to above) are not compatible with the diagnosis of dystonia, or any other movement disorder. Dystonia is one type of involuntary contraction of muscles. It can be reduced or exacerbated by certain movements or positions, and there are “task specific” dystonia, such as writer’s cramp, that come out only with certain activity. Jennings does not display the type of movements that are consistent with dystonia. Her speech and movement are, however, very suggestive of a psychogenic disorder.

This also seems to be the consensus opinion of experts who have viewed this case. The Dystonia Medical Research Foundation had this to say about the case:

"Because of the concern of individuals with dystonia as to whether or not to get a flu shot because of this reported case, we have sought the opinion of dystonia experts on this case. Based on the footage that has been shared with the public, it is their unanimous consensus that this case does not appear to be dystonia."

The one news report that I saw that actually consulted an expert for their opinion was Fox News. Leigh Vinocur, and emergency room physician, was interviewed and relayed the opinion that the neurologists she consulted were of the opinion that Jennings’ symptoms were consistent with a psychogenic disorder. In other words – her symptoms are not neurological, they are psychological. This does not mean she has any insight or voluntary control over her symptoms – they are involuntary and “real” – just not neurological in origin. Symptoms such as this are not uncommon reactions to emotional stress in some individuals. Given the evidence presented, I think this is a reasonable opinion.

Dr. Vinocur also points out that there are no reported cases of true dystonia resulting from the flu vaccine – this is not a known or established vaccine reaction.

Here is another interview on Fox with a movement disorder specialist, Dr. Stephen Grill, who concurs that (based upon the video, and not personal examination) Ms. Jennings does not have true dystonia but psychogenic dystonia.

It is therefore highly unlikely that whatever Jennings is suffering from now had anything to do with the flu vaccine she received in August. Unfortunately, this is not stopping irresponsible news coverage or exploitation by anti-vaccinationists. Further, Jennings is now in the hands of the Generation Rescue anti-vaccine quacks. I predict that they will be able to “cure” her, because psychogenic disorders can and do spontaneously resolve. They will then claim victory for their quackery in curing a (non-existent) vaccine injury.

In addition to the public harm, Ms. Jennings herself is likely to be harmed by the media attention her case is garnering. She likely could benefit from proper medical attention of her condition. But now she is publicly invested in her disorder, and is likely to accept care from those with their own anti-vaccine agenda. It is difficult enough dealing with psychogenic disorders without international public attention and controversy.

The medical community is always careful to point out that there are very rare reactions to vaccines. No one is claiming that they are 100% safe – no medical intervention is. But severe reactions are very rare. Meanwhile, about 36,000 people die each year in the US alone from the seasonal flu. That figure is likely to be higher this year, as seasonal strains are combined with the H1N1 strain to form a particularly bad flu season. We are fortunate that there are vaccines both for the seasonal flu and the H1N1 flu, which is particularly well targeted because we know the strain.

Other measures for minimizing spread of the flu are, as always, also important – wash your hands, stay home if you are ill, and avoid contact with those with respiratory symptoms. But the vaccines are likely to significantly reduce the spread and severity of the flu. And yet, fear-mongering and misinformation, such as with the Jennings case, are scaring people away from the vaccines, without good cause.

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