Vaccinations (Countering the misinformation of Anti-Vaxx Movement)

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

The vaccine or pandemic of 76 is neither here nor there. They have confirmed deaths here. However they are saying it's comparable to the regular flu. The problem is that it's a new strain that people don't have immunity for (unlike the seasonal flu).

Are you asserting that medicine and vaccine formulation/production have not seen any improvement in 32 years?

Media hype is media hype... still the same companies making money. The deaths due to "swine flu" have been less than those for the seasonal flu. As far as whether or not medicine and vaccine formulation has improved or not... we still haven't been back to the moon remember?

[Siggie]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Come on, there are people that get reactions to the slightest thing... don't tell me there won't be some statistics.

We've been down this road before....

"Throughout 1976, the swine flu story swung between fear and farce. In August, Ontario's health minister announced the province's first swine flu death, a Goderich man. This, as it turned out, was untrue. A coroner later determined that the victim, who choked on his on vomit, had never been infected.

At Queen's Park, politicians debated who would get the scarce vaccine. All agreed on police officers and doctors. But should bank tellers be vaccinated? And what about bus drivers?

In the U.S., Nobel Prize-winning scientist Linus Pauling argued that Vitamin C would fight swine flu better than any vaccine. Here at home, the Toronto Star helpfully suggested that those inoculated against the virus should be required to give up the right to strike.

Ontario's government hemmed and hawed until, in the end, it decided to offer the vaccine to anyone who wanted it.

Alas, few did. By December, the Star reported that municipal clinics set up in Toronto to offer free flu shots were shutting down for lack of customers. Which perhaps was just as well. For when several Americans developed a mysterious and deadly paralysis after being inoculated, swine flu shots were abruptly suspended in both countries.

In the end, the only known death from the 1976 swine flu pandemic was the original army recruit. Outside of Fort Dix, only two other people caught the bug. They both recovered. "

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/627097

The vaccine or pandemic of 76 is neither here nor there. They have confirmed deaths here. However they are saying it's comparable to the regular flu. The problem is that it's a new strain that people don't have immunity for (unlike the seasonal flu).

Are you asserting that medicine and vaccine formulation/production have not seen any improvement in 32 years?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Gadag genes? They don't vaccinate those with compromised immune systems with careless abandon. That's absurd.

Come on, there are people that get reactions to the slightest thing... don't tell me there won't be some statistics.

We've been down this road before....

"Throughout 1976, the swine flu story swung between fear and farce. In August, Ontario's health minister announced the province's first swine flu death, a Goderich man. This, as it turned out, was untrue. A coroner later determined that the victim, who choked on his on vomit, had never been infected.

At Queen's Park, politicians debated who would get the scarce vaccine. All agreed on police officers and doctors. But should bank tellers be vaccinated? And what about bus drivers?

In the U.S., Nobel Prize-winning scientist Linus Pauling argued that Vitamin C would fight swine flu better than any vaccine. Here at home, the Toronto Star helpfully suggested that those inoculated against the virus should be required to give up the right to strike.

Ontario's government hemmed and hawed until, in the end, it decided to offer the vaccine to anyone who wanted it.

Alas, few did. By December, the Star reported that municipal clinics set up in Toronto to offer free flu shots were shutting down for lack of customers. Which perhaps was just as well. For when several Americans developed a mysterious and deadly paralysis after being inoculated, swine flu shots were abruptly suspended in both countries.

In the end, the only known death from the 1976 swine flu pandemic was the original army recruit. Outside of Fort Dix, only two other people caught the bug. They both recovered. "

http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/627097

[Siggie]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Some people are on the verge of death and the slightest bit of shock to their immune system from stress or excitement will do them in. Then of course an entire autopsy needs to be done to make sure the person didn't die from the vaccine but because of an underlying illness.

Gadag genes? They don't vaccinate those with compromised immune systems with careless abandon. That's absurd.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Who's going to die from the vaccine? Why are you exaggerating. Even the adjuvants are safe, read the above source.

Some people are on the verge of death and the slightest bit of shock to their immune system from stress or excitement will do them in. Then of course an entire autopsy needs to be done to make sure the person didn't die from the vaccine but because of an underlying illness.

[Siggie]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

The FDA gave the go ahead to allow adjuvants in the H1N1 vaccines, the initial batches won't have them but if there is greater demand, the companies will dig into the batches with adjuvants that are being tested on other populations. Adjuvants just make the vaccine more effective with less antigen. Some people will take the vaccine, some won't. Some may die from the flu, some may die from the vaccine. In the end it won't matter either way but billions of dollars will be exchanged in the meantime.

Who's going to die from the vaccine? Why are you exaggerating? The vaccine is inactive/dead virus... It's getting the N1H1 virus that is producing fatalities. Even the adjuvants are safe, read the above source.
As for the cost... Yes, we're talking international sales so it's in the billions. But you're failing to compare the cost of vaccine to that of lost work and the cost of medical care and hospitalization for those who are infected.

Cost-benefit for the regular influenza vaccine makes it worth getting; I cited at least one study that analyzed that. I imagine it would be the same with N1H1.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

Made by GSK or not, the US FDA approved vaccine does not contain adjuvants. That took all of about 2 minutes of research to find that out. Perhaps you ought to do some research before contributing to the existing unjustified fear mongering already going on in the media.



It's worth checking out his blog entry because there are numerous links to sources and references.

The FDA gave the go ahead to allow adjuvants in the H1N1 vaccines, the initial batches won't have them but if there is greater demand, the companies will dig into the batches with adjuvants that are being tested on other populations. Adjuvants just make the vaccine more effective with less antigen. Some people will take the vaccine, some won't. Some may die from the flu, some may die from the vaccine. In the end it won't matter either way but billions of dollars will be exchanged in the meantime.

[Siggie]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

The vaccine is produced by GlaxoSmithKline, they are not just in Germany.

Made by GSK or not, the US FDA approved vaccine does not contain adjuvants. That took all of about 2 minutes of research to find that out. Perhaps you ought to do some research before contributing to the existing unjustified fear mongering already going on in the media.

We are now facing a regular seasonal flu spiked with the H1N1 pandemic. Our best weapon against morbidity and mortality caused by the flu is information, and yet the public is being barraged with misinformation designed to encourage poor choices and thereby result in maximal morbidity and mortality.
...
The bottom line is that the vaccine works enough to make it worthwhile, and it is extremely safe. At a time when health care costs are crushing our economy, it is also worth pointing out that it is cost effective.
...
Compared to the seasonal flu H1N1 is about as deadly overall, but kills a higher proportion of those who are otherwise young and healthy, and also is more deadly for pregnant women. About 1% of people infected with H1N1 get a severe form of the flu likely requiring hospitalization and at high risk of death.
...
Is the vaccine safe?

There is a range of concerns that have been raised about the vaccine. These range from those that are reasonable and should be raised about any new intervention at one end, to outrageous conspiracy mongering at the other. Of course, those who raise appropriate concerns hate to be painted with the same brush as the conspiracy theorists, and so I will make that distinction at the outset. And, as stated above, the conspiracy theories are beyond the scope of this entry.

I would file under appropriate concerns the fact that the previous H1N1 pandemic vaccine from 1976 resulted in an increased risk of Guillain Barre Syndrome (GBS) – about 1 per 100,000 people vaccinated. The seasonal flu vaccine in the last 32 years has resulted in excess cases of GBS of about 1 in 1 million. While we expect that the H1N1 vaccine will likely have the same risk of GBS as the seasonal flu vaccine, the US and UK have instituted monitoring systems (essentially encouraging doctors to report cases of GBS following vaccination) as an early warning if the H1N1 vaccine has a higher risk of GBS.

I discuss the issue of GBS in more detail here, but the bottom line is that the risk of GBS ranges from low to very low, and it will be monitored. Also, early experience with the H1N1 vaccine has not resulted in any cases of GBS, so at the very least the risk is not high.

Most of the concerns brought up about the H1N1 vaccine I consider to be unreasonable fear mongering. For example, anti-vaccinationists have tried to raise fears about adjuvants in the vaccine. They consistently fail to point out that the versions of the vaccine approved by the FDA for use in the US do not contain adjuvants.

Adjuvants are substances added to vaccine to increase the immune response. This allows for the use of less viral material in the vaccine. Vaccine adjuvants are all extensively tested and are generally safe. Any reactions are extremely rares, and certainly much less likely than morbidity from the disease the vaccine is targeting.

Harriet Hall has already addressed the fear mongering surrounding squalene and other adjuvants here, and David Gorski addresses similar concerns here.

Another concern that is brought up is that one can get sick from the vaccine itself. Bill Maher infamously stated recently on his show that the vaccine “injects disease” into the arm. The injectible version of the vaccine does not contain “disease” – it is a killed virus vaccine, and it is impossible to get the flu from the vaccine. The nasal spray vaccine does contain a live virus, but it is an attenuated virus – meaning that it is weakened so as not to cause illness but only to provoke an immune response. There is a small risk that attenuated viruses will spontaneously mutate and revert back to a more virulent form, but the risk is very small.
And, of course, the now classic vaccine scare mongering regarding thimerosal, a mercury-based preservative, is being trotted out. These claims are wrong on multiple levels. We have already dealt extensively with the false claim that thimerosal is unsafe. A thorough review and reference list can be found here. Thimerosal is safe in the doses used in vaccines.

Further, the single-shot version of the seasonal and H1N1 flu vaccines, and the nasal vaccine, all do not contain any thimerosal. Thimerosal is only used in the multi-shot version of the vaccine, to prevent contamination.

Conclusion

While there is uncertainty and reasonable concerns regarding the flu vaccine, and more research is welcome, current evidence is sufficient to recommend that the vaccine is safe and effective. The bottom line with any medical intervention is risk vs benefit. The benefit of the H1N1 vaccine far outweighs the minimal risk.

Further, the more people who get the vaccine the more effective it will be. At this rate, we are unlikely to achieve herd immunity, but everyone who gets vaccinated will not only provide themselves with a level of protection, but will also protect those around them.

It is still too early to tell how severe the H1N1 pandemic will be, but at least it will result in a bad flu season. It is also clear at this point that the pandemic will be significantly worsened by fear-mongering against the most effective defense we have against the flu – the vaccine.

It's worth checking out his blog entry because there are numerous links to sources and references.


*edit to add

I googled and Canadian order was for unadjuvanted vaccine as well.

[Siggie]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

I wasn't talking about N1H1 ( but I will do some research about that), although from my understanding that was built from the existing influenza vaccine essentially using that as a base and just changing the strains included and nothing else.
The childhood vaccines though, do affect other people's children; as I said before it affects herd immunity and can result in harm to other children.

Influenza vaccines by and large have been very safe and effective...



Nichol, Lind, Margolis, et al. (1995). The effectiveness of vaccination against Influenza in healthy working adults. The New England Journal of Medicine, 333, 889-893.
- reduced 30ish%

Vu, Farish, Jenkins, Kelly, (2002). A meta-analysis of effectiveness of influenza vaccine in persons aged 65 year and older living in the community. Vaccine, 20 (12-14), 1831-1836.
- effective in reducing influenza-like illness by 35%, hospitalization for pneumonia and influenza by 33%, mortality following hospitalization for pneumonia and influenza by 47% ; and mortality from all causes by 50% (CI 45–56%).

Nordin, Mullooly, Poblete, Strikas, Petrucci, et al. (2001). Influenza vaccine effectiveness in preventing hospitalizations in persons 65 years or older in Minnesota, New York, and Oregon: Data from 3 health plans. Journal of Infectious Diseases, 184 (15), 665-570
- The virus‐vaccine match was excellent for year 1 and fair for year 2. Both years, during peak and total periods, vaccination reduced all causes of death and hospitalization for pneumonia and influenza: hospitalizations were reduced by 19%–20% and 18%–24% for years 1 and 2, respectively, and deaths were reduced by 60%–61% and 35%–39% for the same periods.

Kramanz, DeStefano, Gargiullo, Chen, Lieu, et al. (2001) Does influenza vaccination prevent asthma exacerbations in children? The Journal of Pediatrics,138 (3),306-310.
- influenza vaccination protects against acute asthma exacerbations in children

Hurwitz, Haber, Chang, Shope, Teo, et al. (2000).Effectiveness of influenza vaccination of day care children in reducing influenza-related morbidity among household contacts. The Journal of the American Medical Association, 284 (13), 1677-1682.
- Influenza-unvaccinated household contacts of influenza-vaccinated day care children had 42% fewer febrile respiratory illnesses compared with unvaccinated household contacts of control children. Among school-aged household contacts (aged 5-17 years), there was an 80% reduction among contacts of vaccinated children vs contacts of unvaccinated children in febrile respiratory illnesses (P=.01), as well as reductions of more than 70% in school days missed (P=.02), reported earaches (P=.02), physician visits (P=.007), physician-prescribed antibiotics (P=.02), and adults who missed work to take care of ill children (P=.04). Conclusions These results indicate that vaccinating day care children against influenza helps reduce influenza-related morbidity among their household contacts, particularly among school-aged contacts. Future studies should be conducted in civilian populations to assess the full effect of vaccinating day care children against influenza.

Manzoli, Schioppa, Boccia, Villari, Paolo. (2007). The Efficacy of Influenza vaccine for healthy children: A Meta-Analysis evaluating potential sources of variation in efficacy estimates including study quality. The Pediatric Infectious Disease Journal, 26 (2), 97-106.
- Multi-country study... 61% efficacy

[KanadaHye]

Re: Vaccinations (Anti-Vaxx Movement)

No, the anti-vaxxers are not doctors. The story you cited about is about one very specific vaccine in Germany. Further, if adults don't want to get a flu vaccine, it's one thing, but deciding not to immunize their children is quite another. They are putting not only their own children at risk, but also other people's children because it affects herd immunity.

The vaccine is produced by GlaxoSmithKline, they are not just in Germany. If an adult doesn't want to immunize their child with an untested, rushed and baseless vaccine, it is THEIR child... not yours and not the governments.